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[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Bhelen's interested in more than just profit.

Of course, though he's shown himself a shrewd businessman while ruling Orzammar.

He has contracts with everybody throughout Thedas, he's unlikely to refuse one noble's demands because they're claiming lyrium for the Templar.

Same thing with the mages, he'll likely help them as much as he would the Templar though that would depend entirely on if other nobles would cut off from using Orzammar's trade because Bhelen is assisting mages.

Would he really risk involving Orzammar in something that could doom Orzammar (by providing for a war he might not win) and cut off some contacts he has with the surface?

He also has connections with the Carta topside, and could use those connections to help the mages even more.

As could the Templar.

Harrowmont would probably just try and make compromises and stay neutral throughout the whole thing, though I doubt that would do much for him.

He cut himself off from the service entirely, chances are he'd not give a damn at all about the Templar or the Mages. He wouldn't have to stay neutral in this case, as he wouldn't be providing anything for either side. Chances are, this fate would probably damage the Templar ranks a lot more as they'd likely lose any chance of getting lyrium outside of smugglers.

But where would the Templars get their money? They have no job anymore (no pay and no chantry = no lyrium), so the only way to get it is to ransack and pillage villages. Why would Bhelen aid the people who barely have any money and are ransacking villages? That would be bad for Orzammar, as he would be seen aiding the people who are committing atrocious crimes and saying "it's the Maker's will" or some such nonsense.

I have no doubt though that at first some people would give money to the Templars, but eventually their donations would run out, and then they'd have to do what I said above.

The Mages on the other hand have a steady course of income. Their powers. They can use their powers for the greater good and ask for money in return. Healing people, defending people, etc.

And even though their powers draw from the Fade, they don't absolutely need lyrium to use their powers. So long as they get enough rest, then they can keep going about with their mageness. Or use blood magic to power their spells, so long as they vow to use their own blood. And I imagine a fair portion of mages at least would do that and hold true to their word. Most people haven't even seen blood magic before. Niall the mage had never seen it before, and I doubt the populus has (save for a few instances like the Denerim Alienage). They could easily say that it's just a special form of Circle magic.

Though I wouldn't want the mentally unstable people to be using Blood Magic. Last thing we need are more Uldreds, Tarohnes, and Quentins. Abominations, insane clowns, and mentally unstable people turned even more unstable due to massive grief.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The templars status towards the dalish, chasind and rivaini has not changed since the circle mages' rebellion. They would have no new reasons to attack them unless they offered shelter to the rebel mages. In fact in the first game I didn't really get the impression the chasind have any major conflict with the local templars. It would make little sense for the templars to attack any of them because it makes their task of stopping the mages harder.

The Templars are in a conflict with the Dalish. That's one of the reasons why they're nomads. Merrill tells you this. The Templars even go so far as to torture a Dalish child for information on a mage (Feynriel) and they make poorly veiled threats against the Dalish saying "convert or die" (Visell).

Though as far as the Chasind go, we haven't seen anything to suggest the Templars dislike their free mages, it's true. But to the Templars and the Chantry, a free mage is something they won't stand for.

And even if the templars were somehow eliminated permanently, it would not solve the dalish elves' major problem. They aren't despised just by the templars or the Chantry, they are despised by most of humanity. Most of the threats they pose to the clans is not religiously driven. Major human populations would threaten them for secular racist reasons. The dalish shouldn't be so eager to insert themselves in a costly war that doesn't involve them and would essentially change very little.

Which is why I said it eliminates one of their main worries. I know it won't eliminate the rampant racism, but it's still one thing they don't have to worry about. Hell, some of the Dalish prefer the nomadic lifestyle over being tied down to one area.

But it wouldn't elliminate one of their main worries. Being chased away by templars is no different from being chased away by a large rabble of angry villangers, it wouldn't really cahnge anything for them. The templars are just one part of a larger problem. Moreover, the dalish aren't in open warfare with the templars. The templars tend to leave them alone unless they stay in one place for too long, which is what happened to the clan in DA 2. The Chantry is offically against free mages but they don't really make an issue about elliminating all foreign mages en masse. The Chasind have been mostly at peace with Ferelden for centuries, and the neither has the Chantry tried to wipe out the Witches of Rivain in all the time they've known of them. Unless the rebel mages directly alter that balance I see no reason why that would change now.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 24 août 2011 - 05:13 .

[dragonflight288]

But it wouldn't elliminate one of their main worries. Being chased away by templars is no different from being chased away by a large rabble of angry villangers, it wouldn't really cahnge anything for them. The templars are just one part of a larger problem. Moreover, the dalish aren't in open warfare with the templars. The templars tend to leave them alone unless they stay in one place for too long, which is what happened to the clan in DA 2. The Chantry is offically against free mages but they don't really make an issue about elliminating all foreign mages en masse. The Chasind have been mostly at peace with Ferelden for centuries, and the neither has the Chantry tried to wipe out the Witches of Rivain in all the time they've known of them. Unless the rebel mages directly alter that balance I see no reason why that would change now.

In my personal opinion, a lot of that is partly the Dalish's fault. I mean in the Dalish origin, the very first lines are "You had no idea we were here, so you die, or we kill one of you as warning, or we outright take your valuable elvish artifact and run you off." And the elves only tolerate a non-dalish warden at first (depending on how you handle them). They treat Hawke with great contempt because he's just a Shemlen.

It would maybe solve several of their problems if they were willing to help. They earned respect in Ferelden for helping with the blight. You get that from listening to gossip people throughout the country, when they aren't talking about Loghain that is. And the bartender/Bodahn tell you about he rumors of the Elves helping in a positive light.

The major problem I see is that far too many city elves accepted inferiority as a matter of course, and the humans have existed with that status quo for so long that the moment they see an elf they see servants who barely counts as people (Vaughn)

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Bhelen's interested in more than just profit.

Of course, though he's shown himself a shrewd businessman while ruling Orzammar.

He has contracts with everybody throughout Thedas, he's unlikely to refuse one noble's demands because they're claiming lyrium for the Templar.

Same thing with the mages, he'll likely help them as much as he would the Templar though that would depend entirely on if other nobles would cut off from using Orzammar's trade because Bhelen is assisting mages.

Would he really risk involving Orzammar in something that could doom Orzammar (by providing for a war he might not win) and cut off some contacts he has with the surface?

He also has connections with the Carta topside, and could use those connections to help the mages even more.

As could the Templar.

Harrowmont would probably just try and make compromises and stay neutral throughout the whole thing, though I doubt that would do much for him.

He cut himself off from the service entirely, chances are he'd not give a damn at all about the Templar or the Mages. He wouldn't have to stay neutral in this case, as he wouldn't be providing anything for either side. Chances are, this fate would probably damage the Templar ranks a lot more as they'd likely lose any chance of getting lyrium outside of smugglers.

But where would the Templars get their money? They have no job anymore (no pay and no chantry = no lyrium), so the only way to get it is to ransack and pillage villages. Why would Bhelen aid the people who barely have any money and are ransacking villages? That would be bad for Orzammar, as he would be seen aiding the people who are committing atrocious crimes and saying "it's the Maker's will" or some such nonsense.

I have no doubt though that at first some people would give money to the Templars, but eventually their donations would run out, and then they'd have to do what I said above.

The Mages on the other hand have a steady course of income. Their powers. They can use their powers for the greater good and ask for money in return. Healing people, defending people, etc.

And even though their powers draw from the Fade, they don't absolutely need lyrium to use their powers. So long as they get enough rest, then they can keep going about with their mageness. Or use blood magic to power their spells, so long as they vow to use their own blood. And I imagine a fair portion of mages at least would do that and hold true to their word. Most people haven't even seen blood magic before. Niall the mage had never seen it before, and I doubt the populus has (save for a few instances like the Denerim Alienage). They could easily say that it's just a special form of Circle magic.

Though I wouldn't want the mentally unstable people to be using Blood Magic. Last thing we need are more Uldreds, Tarohnes, and Quentins. Abominations, insane clowns, and mentally unstable people turned even more unstable due to massive grief.

Where would hte mages get their money? They don't have a job anymore either...

The Templars can also offer to protect people, and they frequently did so already, and as such are probably far better in that business than any mage will ever be. Furthermore the Templars are probably the ones who hold the Circle Towers, which also means they hold the accumulated wealth of all the Circles of Thedas, while the mages are left with absolutely nothing.

[dragonflight288]

Where would hte mages get their money? They don't have a job anymore either...

Enchantment!!!

The Templars can also offer to protect people, and they frequently did so already, and as such are probably far better in that business than any mage will ever be. Furthermore the Templars are probably the ones who hold the Circle Towers, which also means they hold the accumulated wealth of all the Circles of Thedas, while the mages are left with absolutely nothing.

Unlike the mages, templars are addicted to lyrium, and a withdrawl can kill them or drive them insane. Not exactly psychologically sound bodyguards.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

dragonflight288 wrote...

In my personal opinion, a lot of that is partly the Dalish's fault. I mean in the Dalish origin, the very first lines are "You had no idea we were here, so you die, or we kill one of you as warning, or we outright take your valuable elvish artifact and run you off." And the elves only tolerate a non-dalish warden at first (depending on how you handle them). They treat Hawke with great contempt because he's just a Shemlen.

It would maybe solve several of their problems if they were willing to help. They earned respect in Ferelden for helping with the blight. You get that from listening to gossip people throughout the country, when they aren't talking about Loghain that is. And the bartender/Bodahn tell you about he rumors of the Elves helping in a positive light.

The major problem I see is that far too many city elves accepted inferiority as a matter of course, and the humans have existed with that status quo for so long that the moment they see an elf they see servants who barely counts as people (Vaughn)

In my opinion. the problems between elves and humans are not so easily fixed as joining the mages in a rebellion against the templars or Chantry. The epilouge in Dragon Age Origins says that even though they gained respect for helping Ferelden defeat the Blight, tensions arose again and peace was barely maintained. Even if that isn't canon, Alister says that the dalish boon didn't work out like they had hoped so clearly humans and elves have far deeper rooted emnity.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Where would hte mages get their money? They don't have a job anymore either...

The Templars can also offer to protect people, and they frequently did so already, and as such are probably far better in that business than any mage will ever be. Furthermore the Templars are probably the ones who hold the Circle Towers, which also means they hold the accumulated wealth of all the Circles of Thedas, while the mages are left with absolutely nothing.

The mages never had a job to begin with. Their only duty was to make enchantments to keep the Circle running and having profits, which is something they can still do.

Mages don't actually need lyrium to do spells, though it does help. Templars do. Templars need lyrium for their fix. I'm unsure though if Templar abilities can actually be done without lyrium. Alistair thinks they can and the Warden can, but we've never seen anything. As of right now, all we have is one man's opinion and quite possibly a game mechanic because the lyrium addiction thing was never implemented.

I'd like to think though that Templar abilities can be done without lyrium. Anyway, back to my point...

Where are the Templars going to get their lyrium, hmm? Orzammar and smugglers are the only way, and both of those groups could up the price of lyrium. Orzammar also has a giant gate that could keep them safe for who knows how long. Sure they could do the same thing with the mages, but the mages don't need lyrium so while they would have no lyrium, they'd get by.

And once again, you're assuming all Templars everywhere are fighting against the mages. It's possible Templars are fighting with the mages, and helped them to take control of the Circle Towers. We've only seen two Circles, so we don't know how the other ones treat their mages. Of those, one was liberal and mage-friendly. I like to think that Alistair and/or Anora will kick the Chantry out and take the Templars under their jurisdiction. Gregoir seems to care more about policing mages and the population and not the Chantry itself, so he'd still be able to do his job. Likewise, he's also a very mage-friendly person who stands for justice. I'm sure that he would not be happy to hear about what Meredith and Cullen did.

If you want to hire a Rogue Templar who desperately needs his fix to protect you, go ahead. But don't be upset when he trashes your house looking for more money because you couldn't pay him enough money for him to get his fix.

[Wulfram]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Enchantment!!!

Carried out by Tranquil, not mages.

Unlike the mages, templars are addicted to lyrium, and a withdrawl can kill them or drive them insane. Not exactly psychologically sound bodyguards.

Are Mages not addicted to lyrium?  It's not played up the way it is with Templars, but I've never seen anything which says they're not affected by it.  There's a post from David Gaider where he says they originally planned to implement Lyrium addiction for mages in Origins.

Maybe your average mage wouldn't get enough of the stuff to develop addiction.  Though my Hawke surely did...

[dragonflight288]

Are Mages not addicted to lyrium? It's not played up the way it is with Templars, but I've never seen anything which says they're not affected by it. There's a post from David Gaider where he says they originally planned to implement Lyrium addiction for mages in Origins.

Mages use lyrium in their rituals and to amplify the effects of spells. Templars actually ingest it in order to use or amplify their own natural talents to combat magic (or so the Chantry claims). But the templars become addicted and suffer lyrium withdrawal, ending up insane like that templar in Howe's dungeon or die. Samson was kicked out of the order and spent almost every waking moment earning or stealing money to buy lyrium from smugglers because he was so dang addicted.

[TEWR]

Wulfram wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
Enchantment!!!

Carried out by Tranquil, not mages.

Unlike the mages, templars are addicted to lyrium, and a withdrawl can kill them or drive them insane. Not exactly psychologically sound bodyguards.

Are Mages not addicted to lyrium?  It's not played up the way it is with Templars, but I've never seen anything which says they're not affected by it.  There's a post from David Gaider where he says they originally planned to implement Lyrium addiction for mages in Origins.

Maybe your average mage wouldn't get enough of the stuff to develop addiction.  Though my Hawke surely did...

the only thing I've seen in the DA games is that too much usage of lyrium can cause mages to become twisted reflections of men, almost unrecognizable by the populus.

But I also know that they don't actually require lyrium to do spells, since they draw their power from the Fade itself. Lyrium is more like a substitute for drawing from the Fade, and not actually required.

[Wulfram]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

the only thing I've seen in the DA games is that too much usage of lyrium can cause mages to become twisted reflections of men, almost unrecognizable by the populus.

But I also know that they don't actually require lyrium to do spells, since they draw their power from the Fade itself. Lyrium is more like a substitute for drawing from the Fade, and not actually required.

The codex says that disorientation is a templar specific consequence, while addiction seems to be a general consequence of prolonged use.

And, fundamentally, why wouldn't the Chantry get mages addicted?  It's another method of control.

[dragonflight288]

Because they don't ingest it every day. They use it in limited amounts for rituals like the Harrowing and Connor's case. They don't use it to cast fireballs at the fireplace in class.

[Wulfram]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Because they don't ingest it every day.

Why not?  The Chantry is obsessed with controlling mages, why on Thedas wouldn't they get the mages hooked on Lyrium just like they do with the Templars?

[dragonflight288]

Why not? The Chantry is obsessed with controlling mages, why on Thedas wouldn't they get the mages hooked on Lyrium just like they do with the Templars?

Because there is a very long history of Tevinter ruling and using magic indiscriminately with blood and lyrium without addiction. Getting mages addicted to lyrium to help control their powers would be counter-productive because a very large part of history says it's not true.

[Wulfram]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Because there is a very long history of Tevinter ruling and using magic indiscriminately with blood and lyrium without addiction. Getting mages addicted to lyrium to help control their powers would be counter-productive because a very large part of history says it's not true.

What basis do you have for claiming that Tevinter mages weren't addicted?

edit: addiction is only a problem if you lose your supply, which probably wouldn't happen to a Tevinter mage.

Modifié par Wulfram, 24 août 2011 - 07:54 .

[dragonflight288]

They were using blood magic instead of lyrium. The blood of thousands of slaves in rituals.

Barbaric and cruel, but it shows that lyrium isn't needed for mages to use magic.

[Wulfram]

dragonflight288 wrote...

They were using blood magic instead of lyrium. The blood of thousands of slaves in rituals.

Barbaric and cruel, but it shows that lyrium isn't needed for mages to use magic.

The Tevinter mages certainly did use Lyrium, there are many mentions in the codex.

And I'm not sure what you're point is, anyway.  Yes, you can do magic without Lyrium.  That doesn't mean that mages don't use it and become addicted to Lyrium, just as the Templars do.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Wulfram wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Because there is a very long history of Tevinter ruling and using magic indiscriminately with blood and lyrium without addiction. Getting mages addicted to lyrium to help control their powers would be counter-productive because a very large part of history says it's not true.

What basis do you have for claiming that Tevinter mages weren't addicted?

edit: addiction is only a problem if you lose your supply, which probably wouldn't happen to a Tevinter mage.

Actually, it is a problem regardless. That addled Templar standing in front of the Denerim chantry probably never missed his regular lyrium draught, yet his mind was going.

[Wulfram]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Actually, it is a problem regardless. That addled Templar standing in front of the Denerim chantry probably never missed his regular lyrium draught, yet his mind was going.

The codex says:
Lyrium has its costs, however. Prolonged use becomes addictive, the
cravings unbearable. Over time, templars grow disoriented, incapable of
distinguishing memory from present, or dream from waking. They
frequently become paranoid as their worst memories and nightmares haunt
their waking hours. Mages have additionally been known to suffer
physical mutation: The magister lords of the Tevinter Imperium were
widely reputed to have been so affected by their years of lyrium use
that they could not be recognized by their own kin, nor even as
creatures that had once been human.


Which to me implies that addiction is a general consequence of Lyrium use, disorientation only applies to Templars and mutation applies only to Mages.

[TEWR]

Would you want to make a mage mutate into something just so you could keep control over it (which doesn't even seem to be the case. Overuse does not equal addiction. Just foolishness)?

We don't even know what they actually mutate into. For all we know it could be some sort of odd Darkspawn/Abomination hybrid.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And once again, you're assuming all Templars everywhere are fighting against the mages. It's possible Templars are fighting with the mages, and helped them to take control of the Circle Towers. We've only seen two Circles, so we don't know how the other ones treat their mages. Of those, one was liberal and mage-friendly. I like to think that Alistair and/or Anora will kick the Chantry out and take the Templars under their jurisdiction. Gregoir seems to care more about policing mages and the population and not the Chantry itself, so he'd still be able to do his job. Likewise, he's also a very mage-friendly person who stands for justice. I'm sure that he would not be happy to hear about what Meredith and Cullen did.

If you want to hire a Rogue Templar who desperately needs his fix to protect you, go ahead. But don't be upset when he trashes your house looking for more money because you couldn't pay him enough money for him to get his fix.

If the mages and Templars were working together there wouldn't even be an issue, now would there? And while Greagoir may not be happy to hear what happened in Kirkwall, do you know what he would dislike even more? Mages rebelling... Greagoir is not described as mage friendly, and it baffles me that he is constantly described as such. "It is the innocent folk of Ferelden who matter. I would lay down my life, and the life of any mage, to protect them."  Is not the words of some extraordinarily mage friendly Knight-Commander.
I stand by my assumption that the Templars are the ones in control of the lyrium stores, and the Circle Towers.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And once again, you're assuming all Templars everywhere are fighting against the mages. It's possible Templars are fighting with the mages, and helped them to take control of the Circle Towers. We've only seen two Circles, so we don't know how the other ones treat their mages. Of those, one was liberal and mage-friendly. I like to think that Alistair and/or Anora will kick the Chantry out and take the Templars under their jurisdiction. Gregoir seems to care more about policing mages and the population and not the Chantry itself, so he'd still be able to do his job. Likewise, he's also a very mage-friendly person who stands for justice. I'm sure that he would not be happy to hear about what Meredith and Cullen did.

If you want to hire a Rogue Templar who desperately needs his fix to protect you, go ahead. But don't be upset when he trashes your house looking for more money because you couldn't pay him enough money for him to get his fix.

If the mages and Templars were working together there wouldn't even be an issue, now would there? And while Greagoir may not be happy to hear what happened in Kirkwall, do you know what he would dislike even more? Mages rebelling... Greagoir is not described as mage friendly, and it baffles me that he is constantly described as such. "It is the innocent folk of Ferelden who matter. I would lay down my life, and the life of any mage, to protect them."  Is not the words of some extraordinarily mage friendly Knight-Commander.
I stand by my assumption that the Templars are the ones in control of the lyrium stores, and the Circle Towers.

Is there some reason you have to imagine all Templars are fighting the mages yet you can't imagine that some would fight on the side of the mages? Some being the key word there.

And if you talk to Gregoir again he also says he doesn't want to kill the mages, but that he has to. He doesn't want to slaughter them. The fact that he takes Irving's word wholeheartedly says that he is not only mage-friendly, but trusts Irving. He could've killed them all as soon as all of the abominations were killed if he wasn't mage-friendly just incase, much like Cullen wanted. But he didn't.

[EmperorSahlertz]

He is most certainly not mage friendly, he is fulfilling his duty, which is to protect the mages. He isn't about to bust them out of the Circle Tower. If your definition of mage friendly is "He doesn't want to kill them 24/7" then sure, he qualifies. My definition of it is more akin to "He wants to help mages be free" so I can see if there were some miscommunication between us. Suffice to say, that he would sooner die, than see the mages live free of the Circles.

And that some Templars help the mages is of course a possibility, and vice versa. The Templars as a faction however, don't. Nor does the mages as a group help the Templars. Some Templars leave their order (and could then be argued to no longer be Templars) to help the mages. And some mages actually think the Templars got the right idea. Both are most likely in the minority though.
I have a hard time imagining an entire division of Templars (one stationed at a Circle Tower) would join the mages, just as I have a hard time imagining an entire Circle would join the Templars.

[Wulfram]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Would you want to make a mage mutate into something just so you could keep control over it (which doesn't even seem to be the case. Overuse does not equal addiction. Just foolishness)?

You wouldn't.  But my reading is that significant mutation requires more use of Lyrium than that which causes addiction.

I don't see any basis for the claim that mages wouldn't suffer from Lyrium withdrawal.

[dragonflight288]

There are templars who sympathize with mages and will help them. There are mages who will follow the chantry and the templars orders to the letter.

The thing is that templars are worse off than mages when it comes to lyrium. The chantry deliberately makes them addicted and recruited from religious zealots for the most part. Mages are simply born as they are. Most templars will likely lose favor with Thedas because of their zealotry, even if there are some who aren't.

And many mage-supporters (such as myself) greatly respect Gregoire now that we have Meredith as a compare/contrast situation. Much like I compare/contrast many mages like Orsino to Irving.

Templars are better equipped at the beginning, but mages are more likely to win if the war lasts long enough.