619 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Sepewrath wrote...

And they could sit back and watch the Chantry fall, they don't need to intervene and drag their weakened country into a massive conflict. The Ferelden Circle has more than likely fallen just like the rest, the Templar's are probably gone, the Chantry is already finished in Ferelden. All they need do is not allow them to re-establish themselves. But siding with mages, means they have to fight the war, that is not just going to be against the Chantry.

Point. Missing it.  The Orlesians are threatening Fereldan (proabably because it's so weak from the Blight).  That weakness and Orlesian avarice applies no matter who is on the Throne (Alistair or Anora).  Anora is facing an unenviable power balance against Orlais and she (as her father's daugher) regards teh Chantry as an arm of Orlais anyways, so she almost have to be criminally negligant NOT to grab the once source of power readily available to her that could even the odds or even possibly tilt them in her favor and that would be magic.  She wouldn't care about the morality or dangers one bit....any more than Gen Loghain would have (and Gen Loghain was also prepared to free the tower.....that was Uldred was offered....for exactly the same reasons).

-Polaris

[Conduit0]

Those of you saying that you don't think Ferelden would help the mages, you're forgetting some very important facts. First is the fact that Mages are viewed more favorably in Ferelden than basicly any other Andrastian nation, this is partly due to the Circle of Magi's support of Calenhad, who united the Alamarri clans and founded the nation of Ferelden.

Second, the Chantry has the very little influence in Ferelden despite it being an Andrestian nation. This is because quite simply the Chantry is an Orlesian institution and there is still a lot of resentment and hostility towards Orlais. Further the Chantry openly supported Orlais' imperialist expansionism and if you read the Thedas Calendar codex entry, they were even going to name the current age the Sun Age to celebrate Orlesian imperial glory.

So if anything I would say a Mage rebellion would be just the excuse the Ferelden nobility would need to take their dogs for a nice long walk into Val Royeaux.

[Conduit0]

.

Modifié par Conduit0, 25 août 2011 - 06:44 .

[IanPolaris]

Conduit0 wrote...

So if anything I would say a Mage rebellion would be just the excuse the Ferelden nobility would need to take their dogs for a nice long walk into Val Royeaux.

So you are suggesting that Thedas has just officially "gone to the dogs" then? 

-Polaris

[Conduit0]

IanPolaris wrote...

Conduit0 wrote...

So if anything I would say a Mage rebellion would be just the excuse the Ferelden nobility would need to take their dogs for a nice long walk into Val Royeaux.

So you are suggesting that Thedas has just officially "gone to the dogs" then? 

-Polaris

If it doesn't go to the dogs, it will certainly go to the cats.

[Augustei]

Rifneno wrote...

This is a work of fiction. Fiction very rarely end badly. And even when they do, some douche rewrites so it doesn't. The hero sometimes dies in the end, but the bad guys don't win.

Or to put in more local terms...
Chances Shepard will defeat the Reapers in a realistic scenario: 0%
Chances Shepard will defeat the Reapers in ME3: 100%

Hey that movie was still awesome though!

IanPolaris wrote...
Lyrium stores go "boom" very easily (just ask a certain Dwarf from DAA)
especially since almost all of it is stored as Dust.  I also know that
the Templars lost control of all fourteen circles in one way or another
in the epilog of DA2.

Ergo, no Lyrium stores for the Templars at least none from the towers.

Wait what? where does it say the templars lost control of all the circles? I havn't seen that scene since release but didn't Varric say the chantry lost the circles? Not the Templars? or something. I would have thought the mages had no chance of taking the Ferelden and Montsimmard circles - Ferelden since most of its mages are dead from Uldreds plot, so the mages would be outnumbered, and yeah same case with Montsimmard since its the certre of Templar power if i recall.

[Augustei]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

I mean, my mage became a scholar in rune-crafting, even if he couldn't actually fold the lyrium and runes into the weapons and armor. But he could make the runes so a skilled enchanter wouldn't need to worry about it.

Indeed. If you make the right types of runes you can make a profit. Imagine what Dwarven weapons could do if they were enchanted with the more powerful runes.

The dwarves can do enchantments as well.. thats where the craft comes from dwarves. They just need to practice for many years to perfect it whereas tranquil can easily do it since being tranquil gives them great concerntration.. But yeah dwarves dont need foreigners making enchantments for them when they have dwarves to do that for them

[IanPolaris]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Wait what? where does it say the templars lost control of all the circles? I havn't seen that scene since release but didn't Varric say the chantry lost the circles? Not the Templars? or something. I would have thought the mages had no chance of taking the Ferelden and Montsimmard circles - Ferelden since most of its mages are dead from Uldreds plot, so the mages would be outnumbered, and yeah same case with Montsimmard since its the certre of Templar power if i recall.

He says specifically first that the Chantry has lost control of all the circles and THEN asks if the Templars haven't borken with the Chantry as well to hunt the mages.

Seems pretty clear to me.  The mages took (at least for a while) control of all 14 circles (one way or another), and even 5 minutes of effectice control of the storerooms would be all the mages would need to blow any lyrium storerooms to kingdom-come....and the mages WOULD do this especially for towers they knew they wouldn't be able to hold.  Better to destroy the tower (and the lyrium with it) and let the Templars stew in the cold and rain without their lyrium fix.

-Polaris

Edit:  As for Fereldan, the Templars suffered greviously as well, so chances are King Alistair starts to run the place by royal decree esp if he's already freed the circle.  In fact chances are good that the entire war in Fereldan goes off like a wet firecracker with both Gregoire and Iriving agreeing to kneel before the King and the new Chantry of Fereldan.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 25 août 2011 - 07:21 .

[IanPolaris]

XxDeonxX wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

I mean, my mage became a scholar in rune-crafting, even if he couldn't actually fold the lyrium and runes into the weapons and armor. But he could make the runes so a skilled enchanter wouldn't need to worry about it.

Indeed. If you make the right types of runes you can make a profit. Imagine what Dwarven weapons could do if they were enchanted with the more powerful runes.

The dwarves can do enchantments as well.. thats where the craft comes from dwarves. They just need to practice for many years to perfect it whereas tranquil can easily do it since being tranquil gives them great concerntration.. But yeah dwarves dont need foreigners making enchantments for them when they have dwarves to do that for them

Yeah, but mages can heal (and spirit healers can heal VERY well) which dwarves would find invaluable.  There is a LOT a circle of mages can offer Orzammar (not just against Darkspawn either).  Far more than what the Templars could offer.

-POlaris

[Conduit0]

Conduit0 wrote...
Still, I don't think that completely adds up, like I said before, I could see a few rebelling either out of fear or emboldened by Kirkwall's successful rebellion, but not all of them, unless something else happened that cemented their fears of the same thing happening to them.

Also I rewatched the Varric and Casandra scenes and few things got me thinking. First of all Varric says, "the Chantry has fallen to pieces and put the world on the brink of war." A mage/templar war would hardly be, "the world" also why would a mage rebellion have the chantry falling apart? Varric also says, "You've already lost all of the Circles and didn't even the Templar rebel against you? I thought you left the Chantry to hunt mages?" He doesn't just say, the Templar left or abandoned, but rather they "rebelled" implying that they didn't simply go rogue, but the Templars actually turned against the Chantry. Also why would the Seekers, the only loyal military power the Chantry apparently has left, be out hunting mages if the Templar were fighting the mages on their own?

I'm thinking the excrement has hit the fan a lot worse than just a mage/templar war. My best guess would be when the mages first began rebelling the Chantry came down way too hard, possibly ordering exalted marches against entire cities simply because the local Circle rebelled.(Liliana said that could happen to Kirkwall after all) This in turn not only solidified the mages intent to rebel, but also caused a schism between the Chantry and various nations who's citizens were being slaughtered in the name of mage control. The Chantry starts losing credibility and begins to look like a bigger threat than even the mages themselves. The Templar sick of the heavy handedness of the Chantry turns against them and the nations of Thedas polarize between those who still support the Chantry and those who are opposed to the Chantry.
 
A Thedas World War if you will.

Just reposting this since it got lost in two pages of arguing over lyrium.

Also I'll throw this out, I think the dwarves would side with the mages for no other reason than profit. The Chantry has a death grip on the lyrium trade, if mages win their freedom it will also mean the end of the Chantry's control over lyrium and free lyrium trade practically means a new golden age for Orzammar. Even if the Mages lose, the Chantry won't be able to do anything to Orzammar, dwarves are the only ones who can mine lyrium and unless the Chantry decides to take dwarven slaves, they'll have no choice but to grit their teeth and continue to deal with Orzammar.

[Dave of Canada]

IanPolaris wrote...

Point. Missing it.  The Orlesians are threatening Fereldan (proabably because it's so weak from the Blight).  That weakness and Orlesian avarice applies no matter who is on the Throne (Alistair or Anora).

Except you don't hear anything about Orlesians planning to invade Ferelden if Anora (+ King Cousland) is sitting on the throne.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 25 août 2011 - 09:41 .

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Point. Missing it.  The Orlesians are threatening Fereldan (proabably because it's so weak from the Blight).  That weakness and Orlesian avarice applies no matter who is on the Throne (Alistair or Anora).

Except you don't hear anything about Orlesians planning to invade Ferelden if Anora (+ King Cousland) is sitting on the throne.

I don't have to see a dropped hammer hit the floor to know that it has.  Given that all the other aspects of the political situation are the same (including the Kirkwall sponsered piracy on Amaranthine ships...and don't think Orlais isn't up to that to their eyebrows because they almost certainly are), then it's a virutal guarantee that Orlais is looking just as hungrily at Fereldan with Anora on the throne as with Alistair especially given Fereldan's post-blight military weakness.  It wouldn't be the first time Orlais has taken advantage of a blight ravaged nation after all.....

-Polaris

Edit PS:  Not only that but consider that this is a game whose next chapter is almost certainly either going to be in Orlais or revolve around Orlais in some fashion (the foreshadowing was very clear).  A Fereldan not being threatened by Orlais is a very different Thedas (esp in light of the mage/templar mess) than a Fereldan that is especially given the differences it would imply for Empress Celene and her political freedom of movement.  Given this game restriction, it's almost a certainty that the same basic Orlais-Fereldan political situation applies no matter who is on the throne from practical game developement considerations alone.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 25 août 2011 - 09:48 .

[Rifneno]

Sepewrath wrote...

Hey Shepard will win with guts and hardwork

Yep. But guts and hard work mean exactly diddly squat when you're under surprise attack by an enemy that's got hundreds of millions of years of technological advantage, superior tactics, and is likely so much smarter than you that you trying to understand their stupidest member would be like a gnat trying to understand nuclear fission. And that's fine. I'm not knocking the writers for that logical fallacy. Fiction is pretty much based on that logical fallacy. People love to root for the underdog, it's just in our nature. And very few people enjoy stories where the big bad wins and manages to conquor or destroy the world.

What I'm saying is, because this is fiction, the question isn't who will win but how they'll win. As much as the writers have tried to shove the "dangerous people is bad!" theme down our throats, they know the solid majority place freedom and equality above descrimination and fascism. This isn't a matter of whether the mages will free themselves from the Chantry's iron fist. They will. Meredith's kind have exactly as much chance as the archdemon had in DAO. It's a matter of what price will they, will the world, have to pay for it.

XxDeonxX wrote...

Hey that movie was still awesome though!

Hehe. I haven't even seen it. I just know it's a Hollywood'd version of Alexandre Dumas's 1848 novel wherein the musketeers get killed and King Louis XIV lives a long, evil life. Sucks, but that's realism for you.

[Augustei]

IanPolaris wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

Wait what? where does it say the templars lost control of all the circles? I havn't seen that scene since release but didn't Varric say the chantry lost the circles? Not the Templars? or something. I would have thought the mages had no chance of taking the Ferelden and Montsimmard circles - Ferelden since most of its mages are dead from Uldreds plot, so the mages would be outnumbered, and yeah same case with Montsimmard since its the certre of Templar power if i recall.

He says specifically first that the Chantry has lost control of all the circles and THEN asks if the Templars haven't borken with the Chantry as well to hunt the mages.

Seems pretty clear to me.  The mages took (at least for a while) control of all 14 circles (one way or another), and even 5 minutes of effectice control of the storerooms would be all the mages would need to blow any lyrium storerooms to kingdom-come....and the mages WOULD do this especially for towers they knew they wouldn't be able to hold.  Better to destroy the tower (and the lyrium with it) and let the Templars stew in the cold and rain without their lyrium fix.

-Polaris

Edit:  As for Fereldan, the Templars suffered greviously as well, so chances are King Alistair starts to run the place by royal decree esp if he's already freed the circle.  In fact chances are good that the entire war in Fereldan goes off like a wet firecracker with both Gregoire and Iriving agreeing to kneel before the King and the new Chantry of Fereldan.

-Polaris

Doesn't seem clear at all that the templars lost the circle, since Varric says to cassandra "You've already lost all the circles" meaning the chantry has, following up that sentence by saying the Templars rebelled. So they lost the templars meaning they lost the circles as well since the templars are no longer taking orders from the chantry so the chantry doesn't control the templars and / or the templar controlled circles if theres any.

Not saying that the templars control them all but theres no evidence that mages control them either, especially no evidence they control all the circles. Sounds more like wishful thinking =P

[Rifneno]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Doesn't seem clear at all that the templars lost the circle, since Varric says to cassandra "You've already lost all the circles" meaning the chantry has, following up that sentence by saying the Templars rebelled. So they lost the templars meaning they lost the circles as well since the templars are no longer taking orders from the chantry so the chantry doesn't control the templars and / or the templar controlled circles if theres any.

Not saying that the templars control them all but theres no evidence that mages control them either, especially no evidence they control all the circles. Sounds more like wishful thinking =P

"Word of the slaughter spread quickly, the Champion’s name became a rallying cry: a reminder that the mighty Templars could be defied. She had defended the mages against the brutal injustice and many lived to tell the tale. The Circles rose up and set the world on fire."

"Rose up and set the world on fire" doesn't sound like the "mages are just running and hiding" scenario that the templar supporters envision. I'd say that's the wishful thinking.

"You've already lost all the Circles. In fact, haven't the templars rebelled as well? I thought you abandoned the Chantry to hunt the mages."

Hunt. If the templars controlled anything, they wouldn't be leaving to hunt anyone.

[esper]

The rose of an set the world of fire sort always brought the picture to my mind that the mages burned the circles down. We know they are flamable, Starkhaven burnt down. (Thinks of all the knowlegde that will be lost and sighs).
I sort of imagined that the circles 'broke' in the fighting between the mages and templars, the mages ran and the templars decided to run after them.

[IanPolaris]

esper wrote...

The rose of an set the world of fire sort always brought the picture to my mind that the mages burned the circles down. We know they are flamable, Starkhaven burnt down. (Thinks of all the knowlegde that will be lost and sighs).
I sort of imagined that the circles 'broke' in the fighting between the mages and templars, the mages ran and the templars decided to run after them.

Even if you interpret it like that, there is no way the Templars kept the Lyrium stores at the circle towers (except maybe in Fereldan but those stores won't be available to non-Fereldan Templars).  That's because Lyrium dust blows up reeeeeal good, and it's one of the first thing the rebelling mages would do if they knew they couldn't hold the physical tower.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

XxDeonxX wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

I mean, my mage became a scholar in rune-crafting, even if he couldn't actually fold the lyrium and runes into the weapons and armor. But he could make the runes so a skilled enchanter wouldn't need to worry about it.

Indeed. If you make the right types of runes you can make a profit. Imagine what Dwarven weapons could do if they were enchanted with the more powerful runes.

The dwarves can do enchantments as well.. thats where the craft comes from dwarves. They just need to practice for many years to perfect it whereas tranquil can easily do it since being tranquil gives them great concerntration.. But yeah dwarves dont need foreigners making enchantments for them when they have dwarves to do that for them

Dwarves can do Enchantments yes, but so can Formari mages and Tranquil (the Formari do different types of enchantments, but still).

But, if you have a master smith who can enchant any weapon, imagine what Dwarven weapons would be like with the more powerful runes. Imagine how much more land they could retake from the Darkspawn with weapons like that.

Plus, the more people they have that can enchant weapons, the better. They may already have some smiths, but time is money. Or in this case, the more time they spend trying to enchant weapons and armor the more likely it is the Darkspawn will take more land.

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That entirely depends on how well the mages handle their newly gained freedom. If the resolutionists take chrage, and it all devovles into a blood mage nightmare, the commoners of Thedas will praise the Templars for being their protectors. And again the lyrium is only a problem if the Templars don't get the lyrium stores.

Lyrium stores go "boom" very easily (just ask a certain Dwarf from DAA) especially since almost all of it is stored as Dust.  I also know that the Templars lost control of all fourteen circles in one way or another in the epilog of DA2.

Ergo, no Lyrium stores for the Templars at least none from the towers.

-Polaris

Lyrium Dust don't explode, Lyrium SAND explodes. The Dust is too fine for use in explosives, Dworkin explains as much when he asks you to find some Lyrium sand.
Losing control of the Circles does not equal losing control of the towers. If all the Circle mages escaped, but the Templars still control the Towers, they would still have lost control of all the Circles.

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

I mean, my mage became a scholar in rune-crafting, even if he couldn't actually fold the lyrium and runes into the weapons and armor. But he could make the runes so a skilled enchanter wouldn't need to worry about it.

Indeed. If you make the right types of runes you can make a profit. Imagine what Dwarven weapons could do if they were enchanted with the more powerful runes.

The dwarves can do enchantments as well.. thats where the craft comes from dwarves. They just need to practice for many years to perfect it whereas tranquil can easily do it since being tranquil gives them great concerntration.. But yeah dwarves dont need foreigners making enchantments for them when they have dwarves to do that for them

Yeah, but mages can heal (and spirit healers can heal VERY well) which dwarves would find invaluable.  There is a LOT a circle of mages can offer Orzammar (not just against Darkspawn either).  Far more than what the Templars could offer.

-POlaris

Dwarves are lorewise resistant to magic, that probably also include all beneficial magic aswell, so the Dwarves would probably find the healing abilities quite underwhelming compared to their reputation. Add to that the limited number of mages who can actually heal, and the fact that the mages would rather use them on the surface, and the amges got very little to offer Orzammar. The Templars can however teach the Dwarves their abilities, which would help the Dwarves vastly when fighitng Emissaries. Furtheremore there are a lot more Templars then mages, so that would be a lot more bodies they could send to help the Dwarves.

By the end of the day though, the Dwarves stand to gain much more by staying neutral throughout the war, than by joinning either side.

[Mike3207]

Anyone want to touch the possibility of Morrigan and Son coming back to help the mages in the war?

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Lyrium Dust don't explode, Lyrium SAND explodes. The Dust is too fine for use in explosives, Dworkin explains as much when he asks you to find some Lyrium sand.
Losing control of the Circles does not equal losing control of the towers. If all the Circle mages escaped, but the Templars still control the Towers, they would still have lost control of all the Circles.

Dworkin says explicitly that Lyrium dust is fine for "fuses".  That means that Lyrium dust is like blackpowder and does burn (explode) and thus my point is valid.  If the Templars lose control of the circles, that means they had to (at least temporily) lose control of the places where the mages were housed (the towers) and that means....BOOM...no lyrium supplies.  It would be the first thing the rebelling mages would do esp if they couldn't hold the physical building....destroy the building and the lyrium and lyrium is easy to destroy.

In short, Lyrium Dust BURNS (as Dworkin confirms) which means the mages can easily destroy it (and will).

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Dwarves are lorewise resistant to magic, that probably also include all beneficial magic aswell, so the Dwarves would probably find the healing abilities quite underwhelming compared to their reputation. Add to that the limited number of mages who can actually heal, and the fact that the mages would rather use them on the surface, and the amges got very little to offer Orzammar. The Templars can however teach the Dwarves their abilities, which would help the Dwarves vastly when fighitng Emissaries. Furtheremore there are a lot more Templars then mages, so that would be a lot more bodies they could send to help the Dwarves.

By the end of the day though, the Dwarves stand to gain much more by staying neutral throughout the war, than by joinning either side.

As Bethany herself says, "Resistance is not immunity".  Having healing magic at fifty percent effectiveness is far, far better than having no healing magic at all (which is the current case).  That along with magical support both directly for the war against the Darkspawn AND to support the economy means the mages can offer Orzammar far more than the Templars can...and ultimately Bhelen will side (eventually) with the side that can offer him the most.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Lyrium Dust don't explode, Lyrium SAND explodes. The Dust is too fine for use in explosives, Dworkin explains as much when he asks you to find some Lyrium sand.
Losing control of the Circles does not equal losing control of the towers. If all the Circle mages escaped, but the Templars still control the Towers, they would still have lost control of all the Circles.

Dworkin says explicitly that Lyrium dust is fine for "fuses".  That means that Lyrium dust is like blackpowder and does burn (explode) and thus my point is valid.  If the Templars lose control of the circles, that means they had to (at least temporily) lose control of the places where the mages were housed (the towers) and that means....BOOM...no lyrium supplies.  It would be the first thing the rebelling mages would do esp if they couldn't hold the physical building....destroy the building and the lyrium and lyrium is easy to destroy.

In short, Lyrium Dust BURNS (as Dworkin confirms) which means the mages can easily destroy it (and will).

-Polaris

I would think that pure lyrium, the stuff Rogek wanted you to bring to Godwin in rock form, could be destroyed also. So long as you don't touch it with your hands that is. Don't want to start bleeding from your eyes.

Lyrium has many different appearances. Dust, Sand, crystal, rock, liquid (Kal-Hirol buckets). At the end of the day though, it's all the same.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 août 2011 - 06:09 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

What magic to support the economy? Enchantment? The Dwarves already manage that just fine, mages brings nothing to the table in that section. What else could mages help with? Sure they could help in the fighting against the Darkspawn. But how many and how well? Seven mages were not enough to stop the horde at Ostagar, and the horde the Dwarves face is endless, how many mages will trade their freedom for a life of underground warfare? The mages do also bring the danger of rampant abominations to Orzammar though. Orzammar cannot afford a loose Abomination within their walls. So if Orzammar sides with the mages, then when the mages mess up (which will happen), Orzammar will face a new threat alone, as the Templars will not come to the aid of the Dwarves who shun them.

Orzammar stands to gain much more by remaining neutral, it is as simple as that. That way, once the war is done, Orzammar can still call on the aid of the Templars and/or the mages and/or the rest of the surface. By siding with either, they will limit themselves to that faction, and then can only pray their aid will be enough. So I say it again, neutrality, it is Orzammar's only hope.