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What are the Mages chances?


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#126
TEWR

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

What magic to support the economy? Enchantment? The Dwarves already manage that just fine, mages brings nothing to the table in that section.


Mages can make other enchanted goods beyond placing runes in weapons. Urzara's tooth is a case in point.


 What else could mages help with? Sure they could help in the fighting against the Darkspawn. But how many and how well? Seven mages were not enough to stop the horde at Ostagar, and the horde the Dwarves face is endless, how many mages will trade their freedom for a life of underground warfare?



One Grey Warden Mage in the opening cinematic unleashed a Flame Blast that cut down dozens of Darkspawn.

And they don't even have to be on the front lines. They could serve as doctors back in Orzammar. The Spirit Healer school of magic specialization isn't the only one with access to healing magic. Creation is too. And there's also blood magic's beneficial usages of manipulating blood flow in a medicinal manner, or of cleansing things of the Taint.

And before you say that allowing blood magic would be disastrous for the Dwarves, the mages would be idiots to try anything. If they weakened the Dwarves then Orzammar would fall to the Darkspawn in a heartbeat. So they would have no reason to do something so monumentally stupid as sacrificing Dwarves.

Now, if Darkspawn can be used for blood magic sacrifices that's a different story.

The mages do also bring the danger of rampant abominations to Orzammar though. Orzammar cannot afford a loose Abomination within their walls. So if Orzammar sides with the mages, then when the mages mess up (which will happen), Orzammar will face a new threat alone, as the Templars will not come to the aid of the Dwarves who shun them.


Dwarven Templars. Simple as that. No Chantry oversight. Just keep Dwarven Templars for if and when Abominations happen. Most mages understand that the Templars are necessary. Dwarven Templars (assuming you don't actually need lyrium to power the spell like Alistair said) would make it clear that they are only there to kill Abominations or Blood Mages who went out of line. They won't dictate how the mages live their lives.

And the Templar abilities would help with Darkspawn Emissaries.


Orzammar stands to gain much more by remaining neutral, it is as simple as that. That way, once the war is done, Orzammar can still call on the aid of the Templars and/or the mages and/or the rest of the surface. By siding with either, they will limit themselves to that faction, and then can only pray their aid will be enough. So I say it again, neutrality, it is Orzammar's only hope.



And who's to say the Rogue Templars won't just try and attack the Dwarves for being neutral, saying that they are heathens who need to be shown mercy (A.K.A a sword through the heart). Or they might rationalize it as that they're siding with the mages anyway.

#127
EmperorSahlertz

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WHo is going to teach the Dwarves Templar abilities? The mages?

#128
EmperorSahlertz

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Orzammar stands to gain much more by remaining neutral, it is as simple as that. That way, once the war is done, Orzammar can still call on the aid of the Templars and/or the mages and/or the rest of the surface. By siding with either, they will limit themselves to that faction, and then can only pray their aid will be enough. So I say it again, neutrality, it is Orzammar's only hope.



And who's to say the Rogue Templars won't just try and attack the Dwarves for being neutral, saying that they are heathens who need to be shown mercy (A.K.A a sword through the heart). Or they might rationalize it as that they're siding with the mages anyway.

Oh and the random blood mage would be far lifted over such a dastardly deed!

Templars got absolutely no reason to attack the Dwarves if tehy remain neutral (as they have always been), since the Dwarves would still supply them with lyrium. Far more likely that some ****** mage would believe his blood magic would do the trick on the dwarves.

#129
Xilizhra

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

WHo is going to teach the Dwarves Templar abilities? The mages?

No one. I seriously doubt dwarves can learn them.

#130
IanPolaris

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

WHo is going to teach the Dwarves Templar abilities? The mages?


I can see several possibilities:

1.  The Warden
2.  Alister himself especially in return for favorable terms vis a vis Orlais.
3. Fereldan's Templars esp if ordered to do so by the head of the church (i.e. Alistair).

In addition to all that, you said it yourself.  Dwarves are magic resistant which makes them natural templars even without the formal training AND I still argue that the abomination rate for mages is far, far less than the Chantry wants us to believe.  Bhelen had no problem accepting a Circle of open apostates when Dagna floated the idea past him after all.

-Polaris

#131
IanPolaris

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Xilizhra wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

WHo is going to teach the Dwarves Templar abilities? The mages?

No one. I seriously doubt dwarves can learn them.


I see nothing canonical about Templar abilities that would preclude a Dwarf (or Elf) from learning them.

-Polaris

#132
TEWR

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

WHo is going to teach the Dwarves Templar abilities? The mages?



Gee, maybe some of the Templars that sided with the mages? You even admitted pages back that this was indeed something that may have happened. You don't think they'd teach the Dwarven Warriors Templar abilities? They no longer have an allegiance to the Chantry, so Chantry secrets about the Templars can now be divulged.

Also, there may even be books on Templar training. Alistair did learn various things at a monastery. And no, I don't mean the specialization books (if there is one for Templars). There might actually be books on Templar training.

#133
TEWR

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Xilizhra wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

WHo is going to teach the Dwarves Templar abilities? The mages?

No one. I seriously doubt dwarves can learn them.


There is nothing in game to say Dwarves can't learn them. The reason there are no Dwarven Templars in the Chantry is because they don't believe in the Maker, and thus don't fit into the Chantry's criteria.

#134
TEWR

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IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

WHo is going to teach the Dwarves Templar abilities? The mages?


I can see several possibilities:

1.  The Warden
2.  Alister himself especially in return for favorable terms vis a vis Orlais.
3. Fereldan's Templars esp if ordered to do so by the head of the church (i.e. Alistair).

In addition to all that, you said it yourself.  Dwarves are magic resistant which makes them natural templars even without the formal training AND I still argue that the abomination rate for mages is far, far less than the Chantry wants us to believe.  Bhelen had no problem accepting a Circle of open apostates when Dagna floated the idea past him after all.

-Polaris



Indeed, the magic resistance Dwarves have combined with the Templar abilities provides for a far more effective way for fighting magic, especially if it can be done without lyrium as Alistair thinks. That's why Dwarven Templars are one of my favorite ideas.

#135
Xilizhra

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

WHo is going to teach the Dwarves Templar abilities? The mages?

No one. I seriously doubt dwarves can learn them.


There is nothing in game to say Dwarves can't learn them. The reason there are no Dwarven Templars in the Chantry is because they don't believe in the Maker, and thus don't fit into the Chantry's criteria.

I think it requires some kind of Fade connection.

#136
IanPolaris

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Xilizhra wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

WHo is going to teach the Dwarves Templar abilities? The mages?

No one. I seriously doubt dwarves can learn them.


There is nothing in game to say Dwarves can't learn them. The reason there are no Dwarven Templars in the Chantry is because they don't believe in the Maker, and thus don't fit into the Chantry's criteria.

I think it requires some kind of Fade connection.


Since when?  I have found nothing in the game lore that says (or even implies) that Templar abilities require any sort of fade connection.

-Polaris

#137
TEWR

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Xilizhra wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

WHo is going to teach the Dwarves Templar abilities? The mages?

No one. I seriously doubt dwarves can learn them.


There is nothing in game to say Dwarves can't learn them. The reason there are no Dwarven Templars in the Chantry is because they don't believe in the Maker, and thus don't fit into the Chantry's criteria.

I think it requires some kind of Fade connection.


No it doesn't. The abilities sever the connection between the Mage and the Fade, but the Templars themselves don't need a Fade connection

edit: it should also be noted that Dwarves still maintain a connection to the Fade. They just don't enter it naturally, but they can enter the Fade.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 août 2011 - 07:05 .


#138
dragonflight288

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All Alistais says about templar abilities is that it requires a disciplined mind to use the talents. Essentially that means any average joe in the streets, if given the proper training, can learn how to be a templar.

#139
Wulfram

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Xilizhra wrote...

No one. I seriously doubt dwarves can learn them.


Dwarf Warden can.  So can Oghren.

#140
IanPolaris

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Wulfram wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

No one. I seriously doubt dwarves can learn them.


Dwarf Warden can.  So can Oghren.


Anyone that's passed warrior basic (ie is a warrior) can learn them.

-Polaris

#141
TEWR

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Wulfram wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

No one. I seriously doubt dwarves can learn them.


Dwarf Warden can.  So can Oghren.


Yea it wouldn't make much sense for Dwarves to not be able to be Templars and then allow the player to make his Dwarves Templars

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 août 2011 - 07:08 .


#142
Xilizhra

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Wulfram wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

No one. I seriously doubt dwarves can learn them.


Dwarf Warden can.  So can Oghren.

In-game optional specializations translate into lore now? It seems that Wynne really can embrace blood magic, then.

#143
dragonflight288

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Most likely the Dwarves simply don't have the knowledge on how to train those talents. Once they learn them, tradition will pretty much keep the abilities staying there irregardless of what the chantry says.

#144
TEWR

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Xilizhra wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

No one. I seriously doubt dwarves can learn them.


Dwarf Warden can.  So can Oghren.

In-game optional specializations translate into lore now? It seems that Wynne really can embrace blood magic, then.


In this particular instance it does. If Dwarves were unable to be Templars, how would you go about explaining that a Dwarf Warden and Oghren can be Templars?

#145
IanPolaris

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Xilizhra wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

No one. I seriously doubt dwarves can learn them.


Dwarf Warden can.  So can Oghren.

In-game optional specializations translate into lore now? It seems that Wynne really can embrace blood magic, then.


There was never any question that Wynne could have become a bloodmage if she really wanted to.  That's true with most powerful mages with a strong affinity for the fade.

-Polaris

#146
Xilizhra

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In this particular instance it does. If Dwarves were unable to be Templars, how would you go about explaining that a Dwarf Warden and Oghren can be Templars?

Gameplay and story segregation. The same way I explain Wynne becoming a blood mage.

#147
Wulfram

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Xilizhra wrote...

In-game optional specializations translate into lore now? It seems that Wynne really can embrace blood magic, then.


OK, Oghren's a bit dodgy since it's never really addressed in game.  But there's actual in game dialogue where Alistair says he can teach you, so I don't think that can be dismissed.

#148
EmperorSahlertz

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

No one. I seriously doubt dwarves can learn them.


Dwarf Warden can.  So can Oghren.

In-game optional specializations translate into lore now? It seems that Wynne really can embrace blood magic, then.


In this particular instance it does. If Dwarves were unable to be Templars, how would you go about explaining that a Dwarf Warden and Oghren can be Templars?

I have a hard time imagining a lore correct dwarf spirit warrior. The game allows you to make one though.

#149
IanPolaris

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Xilizhra wrote...


In this particular instance it does. If Dwarves were unable to be Templars, how would you go about explaining that a Dwarf Warden and Oghren can be Templars?

Gameplay and story segregation. The same way I explain Wynne becoming a blood mage.


The point is that Wynne COULD become a bloodmage if she wanted to.  Likewise there is every reason to think that Dwarves CAN become templars if exposed to the training.  There is nothing in the game lore that precludes it other than availability.

-Polaris

#150
IanPolaris

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Wulfram wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

In-game optional specializations translate into lore now? It seems that Wynne really can embrace blood magic, then.


OK, Oghren's a bit dodgy since it's never really addressed in game.  But there's actual in game dialogue where Alistair says he can teach you, so I don't think that can be dismissed.


Not only that but he specifies the only things required are a focused mind and enough martial discipline to be a warrior.

-Polaris