619 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

Emp,

You seem to think that all attacks on templars will be magically based as will all injuries. I'm sorry but that shows a blatent ignorance of pretty much all pre-modern military history. Before modern times, more soldiers would die of malnutrition, privation, disease, and incidental injuries rather than actual combat and Templars are just as vunerable to those as anyone else. An army supported by magic however, is not nearly so.

-Polaris

And mages aren't? Templars are an actual army, mages has never taken to the field in nubmers more than a handful at a time. Somehow, I think that mages will be far more vulnerable to such losses than Templars, which have had actual trainning in such things.
Also, the wound a mage can cause a Templar is probably going to be limited to magical wound in the most cases, since mages aren't combatants. Hell, most mages probably don't even know all that many combat spells. Again, something tells me that the trained hand-to-hand combatant is going to defeat the untrained, rather easily.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Anders was exhausted after healing a kid for some undisclosed wound (though juding from the kids parents, it was probably a cart which overturned on the lad), which should give an indicator that in a battle with over 1000 wounded, a healing mage isn't going to make a world of a difference.

Oh really?  REALLY?  Anders was just fine within a minute or two after curing the kid.  Magical reserves come back quickly. Not only that but even basic first-aid can close wounds and improve the vigor of soldiers which prevents a lot of the bad cascade effect we saw in historic armies.  Even compettant treatment within an hour of injury can make the difference between full recovery and death and you damn well know it.

Just one healer in say a thousand can potentially give a pre-modern army, modern and post modern non-combat mortality rates and that's a HUGE advantage.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 27 août 2011 - 02:31 .

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Emp,

You seem to think that all attacks on templars will be magically based as will all injuries. I'm sorry but that shows a blatent ignorance of pretty much all pre-modern military history. Before modern times, more soldiers would die of malnutrition, privation, disease, and incidental injuries rather than actual combat and Templars are just as vunerable to those as anyone else. An army supported by magic however, is not nearly so.

-Polaris

And mages aren't? Templars are an actual army, mages has never taken to the field in nubmers more than a handful at a time. Somehow, I think that mages will be far more vulnerable to such losses than Templars, which have had actual trainning in such things.
Also, the wound a mage can cause a Templar is probably going to be limited to magical wound in the most cases, since mages aren't combatants. Hell, most mages probably don't even know all that many combat spells. Again, something tells me that the trained hand-to-hand combatant is going to defeat the untrained, rather easily.

Do you really think the mages are going to fight the Templars by the Templar's rules, i.e. straight up battle?  Not hardly.  The mages are going to scatter and dissapear into the population unless they have places they can defend easily with magic.  Not only that but mages have their powers to trade for supplies and aid.  The Templars have to "forage" with all the negative side effects that implies.

You seem to think it's a unit of Templars facing a unit of mages in the open field.  It won't be; I promise you.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

Was he now? I didn't get to fight him afterwads. He could just be acting brave. Which wouldn't be beyond any human. Many times you can be on the point of collapse, yet still find the strength for one last act of defiance. Wether or not he was fine, I can't prove, I'm just of the conviction that he was exhausted, since he acted in such a way.

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Emp,

You seem to think that all attacks on templars will be magically based as will all injuries. I'm sorry but that shows a blatent ignorance of pretty much all pre-modern military history. Before modern times, more soldiers would die of malnutrition, privation, disease, and incidental injuries rather than actual combat and Templars are just as vunerable to those as anyone else. An army supported by magic however, is not nearly so.

-Polaris

And mages aren't? Templars are an actual army, mages has never taken to the field in nubmers more than a handful at a time. Somehow, I think that mages will be far more vulnerable to such losses than Templars, which have had actual trainning in such things.
Also, the wound a mage can cause a Templar is probably going to be limited to magical wound in the most cases, since mages aren't combatants. Hell, most mages probably don't even know all that many combat spells. Again, something tells me that the trained hand-to-hand combatant is going to defeat the untrained, rather easily.

Do you really think the mages are going to fight the Templars by the Templar's rules, i.e. straight up battle?  Not hardly.  The mages are going to scatter and dissapear into the population unless they have places they can defend easily with magic.  Not only that but mages have their powers to trade for supplies and aid.  The Templars have to "forage" with all the negative side effects that implies.

You seem to think it's a unit of Templars facing a unit of mages in the open field.  It won't be; I promise you.

-Polaris

For the mages to scatter could possibly be the worst idea the mages could possibly have. Like, at all. ALL Templars have had experience, or at least trainning, in handling lone mages, or small groups of them. None of the Templars have had trainning in fighting actual organized armies of them. But sure, if the mages think they can fight the Templar by playing by their rules, and scattering, by all means....

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Was he now? I didn't get to fight him afterwads. He could just be acting brave. Which wouldn't be beyond any human. Many times you can be on the point of collapse, yet still find the strength for one last act of defiance. Wether or not he was fine, I can't prove, I'm just of the conviction that he was exhausted, since he acted in such a way.

Play it again yourself.  He was just fine within a minute or two after doing the spell.  Just because a spell might be strenuous temparily does not mean that you can't do quite a lot of it in a fairly short period of time.  Most people (frankly including you) seem to forget just how BAD pre-modern medicine was and how it took a horrific toll on pre-modern armies.  With even a handful of healers, you can get effectively modern medicine in the field.

Big difference.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

For the mages to scatter could possibly be the worst idea the mages could possibly have. Like, at all. ALL Templars have had experience, or at least trainning, in handling lone mages, or small groups of them. None of the Templars have had trainning in fighting actual organized armies of them. But sure, if the mages think they can fight the Templar by playing by their rules, and scattering, by all means....

Wrong.  There is scattering and then there is scattering.  Read Mao's book on the subject.  THAT is how the mages would fight the Templars.

-Polaris

Edit hint:  Think tactical cell structure.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 27 août 2011 - 02:40 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Scatter into "small" independent groups, united by purpose, and fight guirella style? Like apostates have always done (minus the purpose)?

[KnightofPhoenix]

IanPolaris wrote...
Edit hint:  Think tactical cell structure.

Agreed. Mages trying to form an actual conventional army would not go well imo. Not in the initial stages of the ocnflict at least.

Now would that structure lead to a group that can actually build and not only destroy? On their own, I very much doubt it.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 27 août 2011 - 02:44 .

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Emp,

You seem to think that all attacks on templars will be magically based as will all injuries. I'm sorry but that shows a blatent ignorance of pretty much all pre-modern military history. Before modern times, more soldiers would die of malnutrition, privation, disease, and incidental injuries rather than actual combat and Templars are just as vunerable to those as anyone else. An army supported by magic however, is not nearly so.

-Polaris

And mages aren't? Templars are an actual army, mages has never taken to the field in nubmers more than a handful at a time. Somehow, I think that mages will be far more vulnerable to such losses than Templars, which have had actual trainning in such things.
Also, the wound a mage can cause a Templar is probably going to be limited to magical wound in the most cases, since mages aren't combatants. Hell, most mages probably don't even know all that many combat spells. Again, something tells me that the trained hand-to-hand combatant is going to defeat the untrained, rather easily.

The whole point of the Circle is to teach the mages spells fit for both peace and war. Why do you think there's an entire school devoted to manipulating the elements?


you should look at this, this, this, and this.

These are all forms of magic fit for both peace and war, and do more than what one would think. Animate Dead could come in handy for the mage, as he can create a puppet to do the fighting for him.

Likewise, the Arcane Warriors are not entirely gone. I imagine in the more remote corners of the world they still exist. You fight one in the Ruined Temple, another in the Provings, and can find the soul of one in an ancient phylactery. Arcane Warriors could teach the other mages, and then the playing field becomes even more even.

Likewise, there are the battlemages.

Some mages specialize in spells that permit them to engage in combat from afar. Battlemages, by contrast, prefer to wade into the fray alongside their blade-wielding companions, close enough to read the fear in their opponents' eyes. Their spells primarily concern personal preservation as well as control of the elements in their immediate surroundings.

[Follow Me on Twitter]

It would not be easy, a templar is trained to hunt down and kill mages they never stop training for it.
Ontop of that people tend to support templars over mages outright.

A apostate mage probably knows a few spells to try and defend himself but a circle mage? Most have been locked away in a tower most of their life with no combat experience and little life experience.

Not to mention when they get cornered they turn into abominations and end up trying to kill both templars and former allies and the blood mages would more then likely cause more chaos in their own ranks summoning demons that end up turning on them. It would be very chaotic to try and lead a rebellion with an army like that.

[EmperorSahlertz]

They only teach the battle spells to the mages who wants to learn them. You think all the mages have been wanting to go to wars in lands they don't know, for reasons tehy don't care for all their lives?

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Edit hint:  Think tactical cell structure.

Agreed. Mages trying to form an actual conventional army would not go well imo. Not in the initial stages of the ocnflict at least.

Now would that structure lead to a group that can actually build and not only destroy? On their own, I very much doubt it.

True.  For that matter I don't think the mages can "win on their own".  They will need help and allies.  However, unlike before (and it's something that Emp seems blind to), the circumstances have changed.  It used to be there was no real place to hide from the Templars.  Now, the Templars themselves are shattered and disunified.  This means that the mages have a great chance using guerilla warfare tactics at least until they can find allies they can marry their strength to (and I think they can).

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Edit hint:  Think tactical cell structure.

Agreed. Mages trying to form an actual conventional army would not go well imo. Not in the initial stages of the ocnflict at least.

Now would that structure lead to a group that can actually build and not only destroy? On their own, I very much doubt it.

Mages seperating into small groups or individuals would be their doom. The Templars have trainned for exactly that.

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Edit hint:  Think tactical cell structure.

Agreed. Mages trying to form an actual conventional army would not go well imo. Not in the initial stages of the ocnflict at least.

Now would that structure lead to a group that can actually build and not only destroy? On their own, I very much doubt it.

True.  For that matter I don't think the mages can "win on their own".  They will need help and allies.  However, unlike before (and it's something that Emp seems blind to), the circumstances have changed.  It used to be there was no real place to hide from the Templars.  Now, the Templars themselves are shattered and disunified.  This means that the mages have a great chance using guerilla warfare tactics at least until they can find allies they can marry their strength to (and I think they can).

-Polaris

To be fair, Templars probably can't win on their own either. It simply works like that in fiction. But where do you get that Templars are shattered? The fact that they all rebelled seems more to indicate that they are united now more than ever. Same for mages for that matter.

[IanPolaris]

Follow Me on Twitter wrote...

It would not be easy, a templar is trained to hunt down and kill mages they never stop training for it.
Ontop of that people tend to support templars over mages outright.

Not any more they don't.  Knight Capt Cullen made that clear.  As for being trained to "hunt down and kill", that assumes (as does the training) that the Templars have the advantage of an overriding authority and arrest power.  That is no longer true.

A apostate mage probably knows a few spells to try and defend himself but a circle mage? Most have been locked away in a tower most of their life with no combat experience and little life experience.

Many mages know battlemagic.  Perhaps not all, but that can be learned.  Those that are non-combatants use their magic for other puposes.  Read Mao's book.

Not to mention when they get cornered they turn into abominations and end up trying to kill both templars and former allies and the blood mages would more then likely cause more chaos in their own ranks summoning demons that end up turning on them. It would be very chaotic to try and lead a rebellion with an army like that.

That danger is grossly overrated (and I blame the writers in DA2 for this).  Even when the mages in the Kirkwall tower were fighting for their lives against nearly impossible odds, you simply didn't see lots and lots of spontaneous abominations.

The fact is that if mages went bad as often as the Chantry would have you believe, then society would never have lasted long enough to develop before the first abomintions destroyed all the hunter-gather tribes.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

To be fair, Templars probably can't win on their own either. It simply works like that in fiction. But where do you get that Templars are shattered? The fact that they all rebelled seems more to indicate that they are united now more than ever. Same for mages for that matter.

So the Seekers are still part of the Templars?

No?

Looks like shattered to me.

-Polaris

[Follow Me on Twitter]

It'll be a proxy war and you can be positive the tevinter imperium will be pulling some puppet strings.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Uhm.. When you fight your way through the gallows you are almost flooded by demons, abominations and blood mages...

[Erani]

Well three years after, all the circles are free and the Chantry has lost its Templars so looks like the mages are pretty organized. Also, I hope the mages stole as much lyrium as possible and threw away the rest...Templars: good luck getting it directly from the dwarves.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Mages seperating into small groups or individuals would be their doom. The Templars have trainned for exactly that.

No they haven't.  They've only been trained for it when they had unlimited logistics and the full support of all society (with arrest powers) to draw on.

Now they don't.  That makes it a much different and dicier proposition.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

To be fair, Templars probably can't win on their own either. It simply works like that in fiction. But where do you get that Templars are shattered? The fact that they all rebelled seems more to indicate that they are united now more than ever. Same for mages for that matter.

So the Seekers are still part of the Templars?

No?

Looks like shattered to me.

-Polaris

Were they ever? They seemed more like a special branch. Like internal affairs. While sure they may share a badge, but they aren't the "real" police.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Erani wrote...

Well three years after, all the circles are free and the Chantry has lost its Templars so looks like the mages are pretty organized. Also, I hope the mages stole as much lyrium as possible and threw away the rest...Templars: good luck getting it directly from the dwarves.

They've been getting it directly from the dwarves for 900 years previously... I think they will be fine...

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Mages seperating into small groups or individuals would be their doom. The Templars have trainned for exactly that.

No they haven't.  They've only been trained for it when they had unlimited logistics and the full support of all society (with arrest powers) to draw on.

Now they don't.  That makes it a much different and dicier proposition.

-Polaris

That only complicates the matter of finding the mages. Combatting the amges stays exactly the same, for as long as the mages stay in small groups. If the mages organize and form an army, it will be an enemy the Templars have never faced before. It will be alien. It will challenge the Templars to rethink. If they seperate, it will only prolong the inevitable. Mage defeat.

[Melca36]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Erani wrote...

Well three years after, all the circles are free and the Chantry has lost its Templars so looks like the mages are pretty organized. Also, I hope the mages stole as much lyrium as possible and threw away the rest...Templars: good luck getting it directly from the dwarves.

They've been getting it directly from the dwarves for 900 years previously... I think they will be fine...

Alistair didn't use lyrium. What if the Templars found out they were lied to and thats why most broke from the Chantry?