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[blothulfur]

A lie, the fade has naught to do with thought.
Imprudent, we are few compared to the hordes of the bas.
The lies of a braggart dwarf.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Harid wrote...
Why?  It'll be exactly the same as playing a Dwarven Noble, but with magic, they employ the same system as Orzammarr because Bioware is unoriginal.

You say that as if it's a bad thing. And it's not exactly the same.

Because I want to see Tevinter, the old bastion of civilization. And discover new and esoteric avenues of magic.

[Xilizhra]

blothulfur wrote...

A lie, the fade has naught to do with thought.
Imprudent, we are few compared to the hordes of the bas.
The lies of a braggart dwarf.

The first is wrong, the second wouldn't matter if you weren't expansionist douchebags, and the third is close-minded idiocy. So, all's typical so far.

[blothulfur]

No.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

No follower of the Qun is turned into a mindless slave. Those who refuse to participate in Qunari reeducation are turned into mindless laborers with qamek. And even then I'm not sure that is the case for all of them, the codex entries on the Qunari War from the first game imply some of them are turned into indentured servants. Genetivi doesn't mention if they are all mindless laborers as well.

Also the Qunari don't have the same system as the dwarves. With the dwarves your profession is decided by your family's profession, with the Qunari your profession is decided by what you are best at. Or at least what the Tamassans think you are best at.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 24 août 2011 - 06:07 .

[Harid]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Harid wrote...
Why?  It'll be exactly the same as playing a Dwarven Noble, but with magic, they employ the same system as Orzammarr because Bioware is unoriginal.

You say that as if it's a bad thing. And it's not exactly the same.

Because I want to see Tevinter, the old bastion of civilization. And discover new and esoteric avenues of magic.

It is  a bad thing.  Given how Bioware writes stories, you are never the manipulator, you are subservient to those that are the manipulators. . .and I can't imagine the desire to play a game like that.  Wait, I already did.  It was called Dragon Age 2.  Do you really look forward to stumbling into the position of magister?

I also have little faith in any major differences in Tevinter magical systems given how Bioware creates it's worlds either.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

blothulfur wrote...

A lie, the fade has naught to do with thought.
Imprudent, we are few compared to the hordes of the bas.
The lies of a braggart dwarf.

The first is wrong, the second wouldn't matter if you weren't expansionist douchebags, and the third is close-minded idiocy. So, all's typical so far.

Dwarves are "cut off" from the Fade and they can have a mind of their own.

[dragonflight288]

They also have emotions.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Which shows that the Fade are only the source of such things from creatures bound to it. The Dwarves naturally developed to be independent of it, or at least not influenced in the same degree. Perhaps it is possible for the rest of Thedas too.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Harid wrote...
It is  a bad thing.  Given how Bioware writes stories, you are never the manipulator, you are subservient to those that are the manipulators. . .and I can't imagine the desire to play a game like that.  Wait, I already did.  It was called Dragon Age 2.  Do you really look forward to stumbling into the position of magister?

I also have little faith in any major differences in Tevinter magical systems given how Bioware creates it's worlds either.

Hmm good point. But that's a reason I am not looking forward to any Bioware game ingeneral that much quite honestly.

In the event that they do improve, a competent Tevinter magister is something I'd like to play.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 août 2011 - 09:20 .

[Sepewrath]

Harid wrote...
It is  a bad thing.  Given how Bioware writes stories, you are never the manipulator, you are subservient to those that are the manipulators. . .and I can't imagine the desire to play a game like that.  Wait, I already did.  It was called Dragon Age 2.  Do you really look forward to stumbling into the position of magister?

I also have little faith in any major differences in Tevinter magical systems given how Bioware creates it's worlds either.

Well that's generally how stories work, the Cat in the Hat, didn't clean up the mess he made, because  I told him to. The only way you can be "the manipulator" is if you write your own story, if your taking in someone elses, you will always be nothing more, than an observer.

And there is already a difference in the Tevinter system as the Circle of Magi rules and is unlikely to be similar to any of the circles seen in the series.

[Harid]

Sepewrath wrote...

Harid wrote...
It is  a bad thing.  Given how Bioware writes stories, you are never the manipulator, you are subservient to those that are the manipulators. . .and I can't imagine the desire to play a game like that.  Wait, I already did.  It was called Dragon Age 2.  Do you really look forward to stumbling into the position of magister?

I also have little faith in any major differences in Tevinter magical systems given how Bioware creates it's worlds either.

Well that's generally how stories work, the Cat in the Hat, didn't clean up the mess he made, because  I told him to. The only way you can be "the manipulator" is if you write your own story, if your taking in someone elses, you will always be nothing more, than an observer.

And there is already a difference in the Tevinter system as the Circle of Magi rules and is unlikely to be similar to any of the circles seen in the series.

No, that's just how Bioware stories work.

Of course we are playing a story.  This is a video game.  The issue is how that story is relayed to you the player.  I am not asking for me to dial in some random **** off the top of my head that the game will turn into a quest.  This issue lies in how when you are given a task you can't really do anything to flesh out that task to work around the inevitability of being played.  You can't get out of the situation of being the dog playing fetch, and them lampshading it doesn't make it any better.

For example, in a Bioware game:

Questgiver: Kill this guy, he's bad.

You kill him, you come back, questgiver betrays you or something, you fight out of it to save yourself.

However if you expanded that quest.

Found a way to kill the person without leaving evidence of yourself to the crime so you cannot be implicated, planting evidence of the person who gave you the quest so you screw them over first, talking to the person you mean to kill in order to double cross the person who sent you the quest, triple crossing both of them, talking to npcs to find out you are going to be double crossed and bring that to the questgiver, and then something happening other than "Well, you gotta do my quest anyway" and so on.   You don't get these options in mook quests anymore.  I can't then expect Bioware to write a scenario where a character who they are more invested in like your magister, in the example to Tevinter, where they will allow you out of the position of dog to their master.  And I don't want to play dog in the Imperium.  Nor could I understand why anyone would want to, it's what made playing Dwarven Noble so terrible.

Bioware has written double crosses before.  They've done a great job with some of them. . .the Silver Dragon Adalon in the Underdark for BG2:SoA makes me think of one, off the top of my head.  But generally, you are the one being played, like for example, the entirety of the Throne of Bhaal.  Why am I to feel I deserve anything when people set me up, I don't question them, I can't investigate them, I can't work around them, I can't double cross them, they are written to be smarter/more ambitous than me, and yet I deserve the 'prize' at the end?  I don't have a problem with a few stories being written that way, but I would not want to play a game where a place is filled with political backstabbing where I am constantly the rube.  I've played enough Bioware games that that is not good enough anymore, and I don't see how anyone, who can be played for a whole game can come out of that game feeling they deserve anything.  You should not be played.  People easily played don't get anywhere.  It's why many people feel Hawke hardly deserved the title 'Champion.'  Every single thing they've written where we the player have been double crossed should be well written enough that I the player, even through investigation and choice should be able to circumvent that double cross, some through subtlety, some through force to the point that that person doesn't try to manipulate you anymore.

Note I'm not talking about one off side quests, but main quests, where this never happens anymore.  The last time I recall Bioware allowing this in a Main Quest was the Underdark in BG2:SoA.  Note that I am not expecting every quest to be fleshed out to this maginitude, but we don't even get one quest treated this way.  Until Bioware is willing to try harder I want no part of the Imperium.  I'm not even going to get into the "What if I want to play a Warrior or Rogue?" part of the argument.  Good luck. . .going nowhere in the Imperium.

And I don't care about the Circle of Magi rules; those are for naught now with the Mage Templar War anyhow.  I'm talking about the system of magic, I doubt you will really see anything fantastical that we haven't seen before, even if they are added, people here will whine for them to add it in places where it doesn't make sense, and Bioware will cave, heck, they caved to the insane people here who want a Joker/EDI romance for jeebus' sake.

Modifié par Harid, 24 août 2011 - 10:56 .

[Sepewrath]

lol people want to romance house plants around here. Anyway, nothing wrong with your idea, but that's hard to balance. Imagine, if say you got the drop on Loghain, the entire game of Origins would have collapsed. If the plot revolves around you playing the rube, if your break that up, the plot hits a dead end or it loses any kind of weight as your prove yourself to the be smartest person alive.

That kind of thing would only work if the story was really general, like basically, what your saying sounds like Skyrim and a number of Bethesda's games. But we all know Bethesda isn't exactly known for their narrative expertise. And its probably not that Bethesda cant write a compelling story, the bones are there, but its like you say, the way its relayed to the player. Its like in NV, I can deal with Benny this way or that way or I can have these guys over here deal with it for me and turn this whole thing on its head. And while its fun to do that, it takes away from the strength of the narrative.

I understand, people creates these characters and they want to exert more on the world. But I think these characters get buffed enough as it is. Think about it, by the end of these games, you killed what thousands of enemies, demons, dragons, blood mages, broodmothers etc and walk away with nary a scratch on you. If they let you exert too much force on the narrative and quest direction, it would be like playing Sim City.

Not a bad idea, because like I said, its being done, but for a narrative driven experience, it doesn't really work, except for one off side quest.

[Harid]

Sepewrath wrote...

lol people want to romance house plants around here. Anyway, nothing wrong with your idea, but that's hard to balance. Imagine, if say you got the drop on Loghain, the entire game of Origins would have collapsed. If the plot revolves around you playing the rube, if your break that up, the plot hits a dead end or it loses any kind of weight as your prove yourself to the be smartest person alive.

That kind of thing would only work if the story was really general, like basically, what your saying sounds like Skyrim and a number of Bethesda's games. But we all know Bethesda isn't exactly known for their narrative expertise. And its probably not that Bethesda cant write a compelling story, the bones are there, but its like you say, the way its relayed to the player. Its like in NV, I can deal with Benny this way or that way or I can have these guys over here deal with it for me and turn this whole thing on its head. And while its fun to do that, it takes away from the strength of the narrative.

I understand, people creates these characters and they want to exert more on the world. But I think these characters get buffed enough as it is. Think about it, by the end of these games, you killed what thousands of enemies, demons, dragons, blood mages, broodmothers etc and walk away with nary a scratch on you. If they let you exert too much force on the narrative and quest direction, it would be like playing Sim City.

Not a bad idea, because like I said, its being done, but for a narrative driven experience, it doesn't really work, except for one off side quest.

That's gameplay versus story segregation issues that I generally don't care about, as gameplay would be boring if you never got to kill any fantastical creatures, given we already have in prior games.

And I am not talking about something like Loghain either, as his betrayal is not something under the story written in DA:O that you would have the ability to influence.

I am more talking about like. . .all of Orzamaar or All that Remains.  It would be foolish to expect so many options in every story path.  But it would be something I would expect in a place like Orzamaar or Orlais, where that game is part of their culture, and it's something I would expect in the Imperium which is exactly the same.

I wholehartedly expect to be a dog to my masters in DA:3 too, as it's the Bioware way.

Hell lampshade the betrayal, as it happens so ****ing often if they have to.  I don't care if they detail a plan we came up with off screen like in the recent A-Team movie.  Anything would be better than the current "LOL well you gotta do my quest anyway" BS we currently get.

Modifié par Harid, 24 août 2011 - 11:07 .

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

As for your statement that half the world is composed of dangerous beasts and that our leashing of the poor few who are stricken with this curse is ignorant, I simply refute such nonsense. The lyrium touched are a miniscule minority and only when they are brought into the service of the Qun and serve to turn the greatest weapon of the beast empire of Tevinter against its weilders do they stand the chance of redemption.

You misunderstand. The Fade is half the world, and your comprehension of it, or of mages, is utterly nil. You continuously fail to comprehend the world as it is, rather than your fantasy utopia.

Aveline got a strong sense of justice, the Qunari would probably have placed her in some sort of legislatory or law enforcement role. She wouldn't be in the army though. And apparently the Qunari got a far more advanced view on magic than even the Thedasians do.

That assumes that women are allowed in the Ben-Hassrath, and that's also ignoring people like Cauthrien.

And apparently the Qunari got a far more advanced view on magic than even the Thedasians do. At least the "Magic is dangerous and contagious. Something even your Templars don't fully grasp" line, seems to imply as much.

They think they do, but yet got their asses handed to them by the Circle in the New Exalted Marches (i.e. the only good Exalted Marches).

Women are allowed to join the Ben-Hassrath.

http://social.biowar...ex/4394184&lf=8

[TEWR]

blothulfur wrote...

No.

Perfect use of a Sten moment.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Some of the developers comments suggest to me that possibly if a female solider converted to the Qun and had no other skills that she was as proficient in, she'd be allowed to fight but would be considered a male.

[Sepewrath]

Harid wrote...
I am more talking about like. . .all of Orzamaar or All that Remains.  It would be foolish to expect so many options in every story path.  But it would be something I would expect in a place like Orzamaar or Orlais, where that game is part of their culture, and it's something I would expect in the Imperium which is exactly the same.

I wholehartedly expect to be a dog to my masters in DA:3 too, as it's the Bioware way.

Well you could do that in Orzammar, I played both sides, most for the extra XP and Leliana approves. But in the end it didn't matter and that is the same thing that would happen in Orlais or Tevinter. At best, you would get the illusion that your off the leash, until they say some guy on a roof with his hand binoculars saw you chatting it up, with that guy your suppose to kill. As long as narrative comes first and foremost, that's just not going to happen. 

At best, what they could do is make a story that revolves around like that spy intrigue, no different from a spy movie. You don't get to interject in that either, but you can enjoy the twist and turns of the narrative. If their going to have it in Orlais and involve you in these scenarios with the nobles, they would just have to move away from you playing the grand hero(which many would hate) and bring down to that spy level. But of course, you would still be the rube on many occassions, because it wouldn't make sense for you to be the only playing the game.

[Harid]

Sepewrath wrote...

Harid wrote...
I am more talking about like. . .all of Orzamaar or All that Remains.  It would be foolish to expect so many options in every story path.  But it would be something I would expect in a place like Orzamaar or Orlais, where that game is part of their culture, and it's something I would expect in the Imperium which is exactly the same.

I wholehartedly expect to be a dog to my masters in DA:3 too, as it's the Bioware way.

Well you could do that in Orzammar, I played both sides, most for the extra XP and Leliana approves. But in the end it didn't matter and that is the same thing that would happen in Orlais or Tevinter. At best, you would get the illusion that your off the leash, until they say some guy on a roof with his hand binoculars saw you chatting it up, with that guy your suppose to kill. As long as narrative comes first and foremost, that's just not going to happen. 

At best, what they could do is make a story that revolves around like that spy intrigue, no different from a spy movie. You don't get to interject in that either, but you can enjoy the twist and turns of the narrative. If their going to have it in Orlais and involve you in these scenarios with the nobles, they would just have to move away from you playing the grand hero(which many would hate) and bring down to that spy level. But of course, you would still be the rube on many occassions, because it wouldn't make sense for you to be the only playing the game.

My problem is the frequent use of that illusion, and then claiming you make choices matter in spite of it.  In Orzammar you didn't really do anything, playing either side lead in the end to two inconsequental choices.


They have stories of people being the active manipulators.  All they have to to is build a story around that.  It's not that difficult. 

Once again, though, I don't get this you would still be the rube on many occassions stuff from you, when the issue I have with being the rube is situations like the Throne of Bhaal, or Dragon Age 2, when you are the rube the entire game, and only 'win' through brute force or circumstance that you had no active control in.

You don't deserve anything being a giant sucker for the entire game.

[Rifneno]

My gripe with Orzammar was I couldn't exploit that whole "the paragon decreed that the Grey Warden choose our next king." That sounds like the perfect opportunity to be a jackass.

Garin: Has anyone seen my sandwich? I'm only asking because you never know who'll get hungry.
Warden: Congratulations, King Garin of Orzammar!

[TEWR]

Rifneno wrote...

My gripe with Orzammar was I couldn't exploit that whole "the paragon decreed that the Grey Warden choose our next king." That sounds like the perfect opportunity to be a jackass.

Garin: Has anyone seen my sandwich? I'm only asking because you never know who'll get hungry.
Warden: Congratulations, King Garin of Orzammar!

Alright, I'd have to do that for the lulz, even as a Dwarf Noble.

But really the Dwarf Noble should've been able to take the damn throne. Since the Paragon decrees the Warden can choose, then it's even better.

That's my main gripe with Orzammar. It's not my only one, but it's the main one.

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Harid, have you played Alpha Protocol?

It does what you are suggesting in a lot of ways, and you can end up being a mastermind yourself.

[Harid]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Harid, have you played Alpha Protocol?

It does what you are suggesting in a lot of ways, and you can end up being a mastermind yourself.

PC can't play it, it plays for **** on consoles, but I've heard a lot of good things about it.

But I've championed Obsidian's writing/characterization all over these boards.   I just have a problem with. . .well. . .everything else they do.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Harid wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Harid, have you played Alpha Protocol?

It does what you are suggesting in a lot of ways, and you can end up being a mastermind yourself.

PC can't play it, it plays for **** on consoles, but I've heard a lot of good things about it.

But I've championed Obsidian's writing/characterization all over these boards.   I just have a problem with. . .well. . .everything else they do.

Unfortunately. I really like the game, but it's broken.

[Costin_Razvan]

I consider Alpha Protcol to be miles ahead of ME2, DA:O and DA2 in terms of gameplay, since at least you aren't killing almost all the ****ing game.

Hell you can complete a LARGE portion of AP with just stealth and non-lethal hits.