32 réponses à ce sujet

[Gibb_Shepard]

 I'm wondering whether or not i should go with a DW warrior or 2h warrior. I want this guy to reak havoc damage wise. If i were to choose DW, should i go with  2 daggers, 2 longswords or 1 of each?

I'm not good with the numbercrunching and all that jazz, so if someone could tell me what the best DPS warrior is and why i'd be very grateful.

[WJC3688]

For pure DPS, I believe it would a DW warrior with 2 full-sized weapons (ideally Starfang + Veshialle and then switching to 2 Veshialles late in the game).  This is due to the fact that dagger damage is calculated using a combination of 2 attributes whereas full-sized weapon damage is based entirely on strength.  The damage formulas are as follows:

One character attribute used (full-size):

AttributeBasedDmg = [Attribute Value - 10] * 
                    [Weapon Attribute Modifier] * [Weapon Style Modifier]

Two character attributes used (daggers):

AttributeBasedDmg = 0.5 * [Attribute Value1 + Value2 - 20] *
                    [Weapon Attribute Modifier] * [Weapon Style Modifier]

Weapon Style Modifier:

• Single Weapon / Sword and Shield / Two-Handed: range 50-75%, average 0.625
• Dual Wielding: range 25%-50%, average 0.375 main hand; 0.125 off hand (full 0.375 multiplier with Dual-Weapon Training)

Weapon attribute modifiers are 0.85 for daggers, 1 for longswords, and 1.1 for axes.

Basically, that 0.5 multiplier at the start of the two-attribute formula means that each point of Str for a full-size user increases damage by about twice as much as each point in Str/Dex increases damage for a dagger user.  Consider a warrior who starts with 20 Str and 20 Dex (obviously actual chars start with less, but this is just for the sake of demonstration).  A full-size weapon user putting all their stat points into Str would end up with, let's say, 80 Str.  Likewise, a dagger user investing all points into Dex would end up with 20 Str and 80 Dex.  Plugging these values into the above formulas, we get:

AttributeBasedDmg = [70] * 

                    [1 or 1.1] * [0.375] = 26.25 for Starfang and 28.875 for the Veshialle

AttributeBasedDmg = 0.5 * [80] *

                    [0.85] * [0.375] = 12.75 for any given dagger

In short, the attribute-based damage bonus for a full-size weapon user is much greater than that achieved by a dagger user.

Modifié par WJC3688, 24 août 2011 - 04:06 .

[Fallstar]

The maximum dps warrior is the dual wielder by a significant margin. The best talent spammer is dual fullsize, the best auto attacker is dual daggers, and the best overall dps for the warrior is dual daggers early and mid game, and dual full size end game, where +% spirit gear causes huge spikes in damage from talents.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Thanks heaps WJC for the breakdown, really appreciate it. Dusk Warden, would you suggest i pump all of my points into dex until i hit 36 as fast as possible to wield the dual full swords, then pump the rest in strength? Or slowly upgrade dex and strength at a relative pace until 36 dex is hit?

[galelabriel]

You can't get dual weapon mastery until level 12 and if you get all the fade points that will give you +4 to dex so you can map out a plan. Shouldn't have to go straight dex. If you are a Human warrior and place all 5 initial points in dex you can start with it at 19. That leaves only 13 more attribute points to get to 32, assuming no tomes are purchased. I always get dex to 24 asap and grab momentum, can do this by level 3, then I start distributing points between str and dex.

[galelabriel]

Phone won't let me edit my last post. At the end there I meant to say that I distribute points between str and dex, just make sure you have 36 by level 12 if you want dw mastery asap. After that I put the rest of my points into str only.

[tyrannosaur56]

how to get 2 veshialle???

[galelabriel]

You can buy one the first time you are brought to camp, after leaving Lothering. I guess people use a gold exploit or sell DLC items to be able to purchase one here. Then when you return to the camp, the merchants inventory will replenish and he will have another Veshialle for sale.

[Last Darkness]

Im tired of answering this question.
Also WJC3688 math is wroung because its not factoring in any of the varibles of actual combat in the game.
(For example your assuming weapon speed is equal, and ignoring critical modifiers)

Pure Strength Two-Hander (You only need 11 Cun to max out coercion thanks to the fade bonuses) is pure Murder mid and late game but requires some patience early game.

Duel-Daggers Warrior specificaly as a Berserker/Reaver deals the highest possible consistant damage in the game in Origins and Awakening. Since your stacking Dex it has the added bonus of barely being hitable by enemies thanks to massive defense boosts.

Duel Large Weapon Warrior is very inefficient, duel large weapon Rogues are better.

Keep in mind Two-hand and Duel Large weapons have to talent spam to keep up their damage. Duel daggers can just auto attack.

Modifié par Last Darkness, 25 août 2011 - 03:01 .

[termokanden]

Last Darkness wrote...

Im tired of answering this question.
Also WJC3688 math is wroung because its not factoring in any of the varibles of actual combat in the game.
(For example your assuming weapon speed is equal, and ignoring critical modifiers).

Indeed.

If it's just about scaling from stats then you'd want a mace with 1.25 atribute modifier. But it really isn't. Daggers are much faster and there are some seriously good daggers in the game. Because they are faster than other weapons, a flat +x damage on a dagger is far superior to a +x damage on 2h weapon for example. Basically there are a lot of factors to consider.

[WJC3688]

Yeah, I left out the weapon speed mods--whoops, my bad there. Go with what Last Darkness said.

[Last Darkness]

termokanden wrote...

Indeed.

If it's just about scaling from stats then you'd want a mace with 1.25 atribute modifier. But it really isn't. Daggers are much faster and there are some seriously good daggers in the game. Because they are faster than other weapons, a flat +x damage on a dagger is far superior to a +x damage on 2h weapon for example. Basically there are a lot of factors to consider.

and

WJC3688 wrote...

Yeah, I left out the weapon speed mods--whoops, my bad there. Go with what Last Darkness said.

Im not trying to be rude there math is correct for what it shows it just lacks varibles.

As termokanden points out this is exactly the issue.  Daggers generaly attack twice as fast as larger weapons and have higher critical damage modifiers. This enhanced speed benefits from the flat damage bonuses of effects like Berserkers +8 damage, Poisons +5-8 damage, Damage runes +1-15 damage, Frost weapons +10 damage, Fiery weapons +20 damage, and also the damage bonuses from Song of Courage and Stone Aura. This can be enhanced by a Mage in your party casting Vulnerability/Affliction hex on a target so its amplitfying your elemental damage by a factor of x2. 
This gets even more extreme in Awakening thanks to spirit warrior spec changing your regeular damage to spirit which ignores defenses and also can be enhanced up to +50% from gear and talents damage and then is also effected by the same Hex for a x2 modifier.  

Its a extreme dps build that has the added benefit of having high dex = high defense score bonus. Which is where it shines even more as a duel wield talent character since unlike Two-Hand or Weapon+Shield, duel wield gets no defensive talents like Shield Wall or Indomitable which have huge impact throughout your game.

Also another spec im fond of but get over looked is you can build a very powerful weapon+shield warrior if you go only 26 dex for talents and everything else into Str. (Again you only need 11 Cun for maxed coercion thanks to the fade bonuses, which actualy also means you only need 22 actual dex)

[Gibb_Shepard]

So is 2 long sword DW warrior still a good DPS build? I'd prefer long swords, but if they pale in comparison to daggers then i'll switch them.

[turian councilor Knockout]

Dual Daggers= Best early until you get 36 DEX and can equip longswords and since most dual talents is about damage then equip longswords then dump the rest in STR, the only advantage daggers have is that they are faster and therefore better with basic attacks, for example the veshialle and marics blade combined with talents like cripple and punisher will dish out far more damage than any dagger dual could hope to achieve.
Just don't forget to pick death blow passive because DW warrior will require a lot of stamina for talent spamming.

[Last Darkness]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

So is 2 long sword DW warrior still a good DPS build? I'd prefer long swords, but if they pale in comparison to daggers then i'll switch them.

Its a viable build its just not very effeicient or effective. Especialy on any difficulty higher then normal.
As far as pure duel-wield goes, daggers are better on warriors and say duel long swords are better on rogues.
You can play it but its not the best.

Have a look at this build
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/96/index/7966831
and replace the Axes with Swords of your liking (Starfang+Topsiders Honour suggested)

turian councilor Knockout wrote...

Dual Daggers= Best
early until you get 36 DEX and can equip longswords and since most dual
talents is about damage then equip longswords then dump the rest in STR,
the only advantage daggers have is that they are faster and therefore
better with basic attacks, for example the veshialle and marics blade
combined with talents like cripple and punisher will dish out far more
damage than any dagger dual could hope to achieve.
Just don't forget to pick death blow passive because DW warrior will require a lot of stamina for talent spamming.

Im going to have to insult you on this one since you have obviusly ignored many other posts on this board and have no concept of the combat mechanics in Dragon Age.  The pure Dagger user is not only going to do more then twice as much damage then you could ever possibly do as you suggest, the heavier Dex focus means that they survive encounters alot easier and at higher levels even make a great tank. In Awakening they do the highest possible damage in the entire game.
You are giving new players bad advice, and should be ashamed for not helping the community.

Modifié par Last Darkness, 26 août 2011 - 10:44 .

[Yrkoon]

I dislike questions like these.  DPS is an MMO term, and doesn't accurately translate to DA:O's mechanics.    This is a  game who's combat lends itself  better to  Burst damage and instant kills.  Seriously, what do you prefer?  a Dual wielder who can do 30 damage per second, or a 2-hander who can one or two shot an enemy? 

Which is better? a dual-wielder who rushes into the battle field and   slashes away at his enemies, killing one of them, then moving on  to kill the next guy, then the next, then the next?  Or the mage who can sit back and toss out a Storm of the Century to destroy every enemy on the battlefield at once?

And what about Crowd control?  is it less important  for a melee specialist than DPS?  I'd say no.  I'll take a reduction in damage per second, if it means I can make my enemies sit there, stunned, unable to hit back,  from one of my critical hits.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 27 août 2011 - 09:36 .

[Fallstar]

Well, obviously the mage has the highest overall dps in the game yrkoon, but I believe the op was talking about warrior builds. Also Last Darkness, theorycrafting simply doesn't work 100% of the time in dragon age, I have played the dual wielding warrior extensively and am more than willing to provide video evidence that I can clear any encounter you like in Awakening faster dual wielding full size weapons than you can with daggers on nightmare. Just drop me a pm.

[turian councilor Knockout]

Last Darkness wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

So is 2 long sword DW warrior still a good DPS build? I'd prefer long swords, but if they pale in comparison to daggers then i'll switch them.

Its a viable build its just not very effeicient or effective. Especialy on any difficulty higher then normal.
As far as pure duel-wield goes, daggers are better on warriors and say duel long swords are better on rogues.
You can play it but its not the best.

Have a look at this build
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/96/index/7966831
and replace the Axes with Swords of your liking (Starfang+Topsiders Honour suggested)

turian councilor Knockout wrote...

Dual Daggers= Best
early until you get 36 DEX and can equip longswords and since most dual
talents is about damage then equip longswords then dump the rest in STR,
the only advantage daggers have is that they are faster and therefore
better with basic attacks, for example the veshialle and marics blade
combined with talents like cripple and punisher will dish out far more
damage than any dagger dual could hope to achieve.
Just don't forget to pick death blow passive because DW warrior will require a lot of stamina for talent spamming.

Im going to have to insult you on this one since you have obviusly ignored many other posts on this board and have no concept of the combat mechanics in Dragon Age.  The pure Dagger user is not only going to do more then twice as much damage then you could ever possibly do as you suggest, the heavier Dex focus means that they survive encounters alot easier and at higher levels even make a great tank. In Awakening they do the highest possible damage in the entire game.
You are giving new players bad advice, and should be ashamed for not helping the community.

Daggers are better to rogues but to a warrior longsword does more damage and if you're playing a talent smacker dual then longsword have better dps, i don't think you have really tested both and i have dao so many times that i know that longsword suit warrior better. i have tested voice of velvet dagger and veshialle and i crit much higher with axes and longsword then i do with my dagger, daggers are only better if you rely on basic attacks.

Modifié par turian councilor Knockout, 27 août 2011 - 02:44 .

[Last Darkness]

DuskWarden wrote...

Well, obviously the mage has the highest overall dps in the game yrkoon, but I believe the op was talking about warrior builds. Also Last Darkness, theorycrafting simply doesn't work 100% of the time in dragon age, I have played the dual wielding warrior extensively and am more than willing to provide video evidence that I can clear any encounter you like in Awakening faster dual wielding full size weapons than you can with daggers on nightmare. Just drop me a pm.

Id love to take up that offer. Unfortunetly the only Warden I have currently is a mage and low level rogue.

Let me get back to you on this once I have a appropiete Warden.
How about?
Nightmare
-Flemeth/High Dragon
-Archdemon
-The Mother
-The Harvester
-Varterrel

Party and no Party.

I would love to see some "speed run" video of differant types for future comparison.

[Yrkoon]

If you all are interested in reading a *wall* of text on this subject,    A poster named Random70 spent hours and hours pouring over stats in  game and in the toolset and such....  and a year ago he did a thread, which  attracted a few more of us who  spent  hours and hours pouring over stats in game and in the toolset.


The Findings are Here.   

Modifié par Yrkoon, 27 août 2011 - 07:32 .

[gandanlin]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

 I'm wondering whether or not i should go with a DW warrior or 2h warrior. I want this guy to reak havoc damage wise. If i were to choose DW, should i go with  2 daggers, 2 longswords or 1 of each?

I'm not good with the numbercrunching and all that jazz, so if someone could tell me what the best DPS warrior is and why i'd be very grateful.

The DW and 2H are both good builds.  Different combat styles, but both interesting in their own way.

The 2H warrior talents give certain benefits to fighting golems and shattering heavy armor.   So in fights where those are the main issue, a 2H warrior arguably may be the best choice.  However, if you have recruited Oghren and Sten then you already have two 2H warriors.   But I would still say that playing a 2H Warden is interesting to do.  At the higher levels where the Warden has 2-handed sweep, war cry, and some top tier equipment he can do some serious damage.  There are some very good mauls, 2h swords, and battleaxes to be used.  All kinds of heavy and massive armor to choose from, as well.

DW warriors can certainly wreak havoc.  I start with two daggers and switch to a dagger and a longsword later in the game.  The dagger is fast and gives good armor penetration and the sword is a bit slower but does more damage (but without much armor penetration).  I figure by using one of each I balance out the damage between different kinds of enemies.  But the sword is more a late game thing, mostly because swords are equipped by strength scores and the DW build goes by dexterity.  The main problem I see with DW warriors is the issue of equipment.  Between Leliana, Zevran, and the DW Warden, it may be difficult at times to have everyone equipped with decent armor and weapons.  Not so hard if you have the dlc, but quite tricky if you don't.

[Last Darkness]

Yrkoon wrote...

If you all are interested in reading a *wall* of text on this subject,    A poster named Random70 spent hours and hours pouring over stats in  game and in the toolset and such....  and a year ago he did a thread, which  attracted a few more of us who  spent  hours and hours pouring over stats in game and in the toolset.


The Findings are Here.   

Random70 is a Witch that needs to be burned
lol

I respect them, but I dont agree with the spread sheets of information as its not indicative of real combat with varied experince level players. Plus alot of our collective "Theorys, Builds and Styles" have been stream lined since then.


Though on other matters.  Yrkoon is the best the Two-Hand Warrior on these forums followed by few others, Trust his advice on the subject matter. If I could rename Sten it would be Yrkoon.

Modifié par Last Darkness, 28 août 2011 - 07:35 .

[WJC3688]

I respect them, but I dont agree with the spread sheets of information as its not indicative of real combat with varied experince level players. Plus alot of our collective "Theorys, Builds and Styles" have been stream lined since then.

It seems fairly indicative to me; Random70 does calculations to show how things like Momentum, runes and poisons affect DPS, and includes factors like the weapon speed modifiers. Kicks the **** out of my brief, narrow-minded attempt at analysis. He also seems to agree with your conclusion that dual daggers is the best build, damage-wise (and like you, mentions that its ability to reach this damage through pure Dex investment has the added bonus of making it very durable). I'll probably just link to that topic for all warrior-related questions in the future.

[Last Darkness]

WJC3688 wrote...

I respect them, but I dont agree with the spread sheets of information as its not indicative of real combat with varied experince level players. Plus alot of our collective "Theorys, Builds and Styles" have been stream lined since then.

It seems fairly indicative to me; Random70 does calculations to show how things like Momentum, runes and poisons affect DPS, and includes factors like the weapon speed modifiers. Kicks the **** out of my brief, narrow-minded attempt at analysis. He also seems to agree with your conclusion that dual daggers is the best build, damage-wise (and like you, mentions that its ability to reach this damage through pure Dex investment has the added bonus of making it very durable). I'll probably just link to that topic for all warrior-related questions in the future.

OH im not saying its not a good resource, the problem I often have and argue about is that most of the data is for a solo Warden character and generaly does not factor in having 3 more additional characters supporting each other.
Theres several builds for varius Wardens that alone are pretty weak, but when party members support them are incredibly strong.
Im also a Min/Max kinda guy and dont agree about the damage spread from my own experince. Ive had particurlarly better results in the Weapon+Shield area then was presented there for example.

Kinda moot though and I dont want to get back into that discussion. Its a pain in the ass to compile data to prove your way is say 1% better by doing something a little differantly for example.

[termokanden]

Well the thing is, I'm pretty sure my 2hander dealt more damage than my DW dex/dex. But I have not made calculations or video comparisons or anything like that. I noticed it was particularly against heavy defense/armor enemies such as revenants, so my guesswork/theory goes that heavy hits plus the sunder armor effects from 2h help against some enemies.

It's also worth noting that 2h just steamrolls stuff without getting knocked down like DW can. 2h Sweep is also quite the awesome ability.

When it comes to DW, I generally prefer rogues. Personal taste I guess. I love sneaking up behind mages and stunlocking them. Quite possibly my favorite thing in the game.

Modifié par termokanden, 29 août 2011 - 07:33 .