631 réponses à ce sujet

[flemm]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

How many times do the majority of people make a decision against conventional morality for illogical or non-pragmatic reason?

In a fantasy world? Probably a lot. But really the paragon choices are also about fantasy fulfillment, not pragmatism. What I am saying is the the game is mostly designed around either heroic or badass/rebel fantasy fulfillment, not pragmatic considerations.

It's a certain type of more hardcore fan point of view to want the decisions to express a coherent, pragmatic philosophy.

Modifié par flemm, 24 août 2011 - 04:33 .

[jtav]

I think the current setup is also costing Paragons something. I mean, how heroic do you have to be if the "right" path is also the expedient one? If I can use an example from Alpha Protocol, it was satisfying and character-defining for one Mike to turn down Brayko's bribe, just as it was satisfying for another to accept it. I love heroic characters in fiction because they're willing to sacrifice. But there's no sacrifice for Paragons.

[Xilizhra]

jtav wrote...

I think the current setup is also costing Paragons something. I mean, how heroic do you have to be if the "right" path is also the expedient one? If I can use an example from Alpha Protocol, it was satisfying and character-defining for one Mike to turn down Brayko's bribe, just as it was satisfying for another to accept it. I love heroic characters in fiction because they're willing to sacrifice. But there's no sacrifice for Paragons.

Well, there's all the dead humans in the Council ending.

[outmane]

The problem doesnt seem to be the renegade decisions themselves but the fact that many players tend to regret them after. Its the problem of hindsight so it understandably cant be avoided. Once you know someone else had a better outcome in their playthrough you start regretting something that made sense to you in the first place. Even if your Shepard might not.

Best way to appreciate your game is probably to stick with your Shepard point of view. My renegade Shep prevented a Thorian outbreak by killing the Feros colonists and is happy about it. Searching for the optimal outcome will usually only end up in being convinced that you wouldnt have done it thatway if you were on the dev team.

Only real problem I see with playing renegade is having less content. Instead of having ppl come up and thank you for saving them, there should have been angry ppl asking for explanations or trying to kill you.

[matt-bassist]

i think its got to do with if you focus on saving earth in stead of saving other worlds or more importantly places of extreme importance like the citadel.

[TheOptimist]

Ieldra2 wrote...

The genre-savvy player can see an emerging pattern. Or would you *really* believe that the Rachni queen will go back on her word? Or that saving the Council won't have mostly good consequences after the main risk - a game over screen in form of the opened Dark Space relay  - hasn't materialized? The problem is that if the writers don't deliberately set out to subvert the classic hero story - which is almost always also a morality tale - and turn it into something more realistic, we can expect things to go the way they usually go in such stories: the Paragon never has to compromise his morality and still gets the best outcome.

So no, we don't know all the outcomes yet. But better to complain now about an emerging pattern so that its full expression might be avoided.

So since you voluntarily compromise your morality because you like that kind of story better, you want the developers to force everyone else to do so just so you feel validated?  Nice.

[flemm]

To put it another way, the Paragon fantasy is that you can make heroic choices, save lives, never compromise your morality, women/men/aliens will fall all over themselves about how awesome you are, you will save the galaxy, and it will all work out.

Whereas the Renegade fantasy is that you can behave like you're above the law, supreme arbiter of right and wrong, ruthless and violent whenever it suits you, women/men/aliens will fall all over themselves about how awesome you are, you will save the galaxy, and it will all work out.

Both are fantasies, and both will work out just fine in the end. Neither has any relation to actual morality or pragmatism in the real world.

Modifié par flemm, 24 août 2011 - 04:50 .

[Ieldra]

outmane wrote...
The problem doesnt seem to be the renegade decisions themselves but the fact that many players tend to regret them after. Its the problem of hindsight so it understandably cant be avoided. Once you know someone else had a better outcome in their playthrough you start regretting something that made sense to you in the first place. Even if your Shepard might not.

Best way to appreciate your game is probably to stick with your Shepard point of view. My renegade Shep prevented a Thorian outbreak by killing the Feros colonists and is happy about it. Searching for the optimal outcome will usually only end up in being convinced that you wouldnt have done it thatway if you were on the dev team.

Only real problem I see with playing renegade is having less content. Instead of having ppl come up and thank you for saving them, there should have been angry ppl asking for explanations or trying to kill you.

No, that's not the problem. Not for me anyway. The problem is that I can't believe in a universe where the morally right path always yields the best outcomes in term of the overall goal (here: defeating the Reapers). As soon as I realize the pattern from what other people tell me, I instantly go "That's not how things work". Suspension of disbelief in halfway believable outcomes is gone. I'm living in a fairy-tale universe, not in one of ambiguous choices and uncertain outcomes.

I will not be disappointed with unsatisfactory results of any single decision. Uncertainty is part of life, and do not expect to always be right. A pattern of disadvantageous outcomes for Renegade decisions, that's another thing. That's a design flaw in the universe. For the "Renegade" philosophy wouldn't exist in our minds if it didn't occasionally yield better outcomes, especially since it goes against conventional morality.

[Robhuzz]

Aaleel wrote...

So renegade options don't feel right when you're making them?

Renegade interrupt punch the annoying reporter sure did feel right to me...

[TheOptimist]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Backfire usually means something NEGATIVE occurs because you did it. Not that because someone did smething else they got a better (or different) outcome. None of those things you listed actually backfired on renegades.

I'm sorry but the lack of something positive the other side gets IS A NEGATIVE!

No, it really isn't.  I'll say it again, Renegade decisions have had no negative consequences.  The only 'positive' thing Paragons have gotten is more dialogue with people Renegades decided the galaxy was better off without. 

[Ieldra]

TheOptimist wrote...
So since you voluntarily compromise your morality because you like that kind of story better, you want the developers to force everyone else to do so just so you feel validated?  Nice.

That's not it. I just don't want the story of Mass Effect to be a morality tale, dropping conventional morality like a rain of anvils on my head regardless of any kind of plausibility. That's just cliché and boring. I want an epic drama with believable consequences and ambiguous choices. 

I don't want this:

[TheOptimist]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Maybe Ieldra just likes deeper stories instead of cliche hero tales?

Choices aren't meaningful if they are easy to make. Mass Effect is babies, is what I'm saying.

You don't have to make hard choices. You aren't challenges. You just do what feels good, what is expected of you, and you're rewarding.

Paragon is thoughtless and shallow.

Paragon is the path of badassery.  Paragon means Shepard makes things harder on him/her-self because Shepard can damn well handle the extra burden.  Renegades pick the 'safe' way, the way of no risks.  There's an old saying that applies here: No guts, no glory. 

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...
To put it another way, the Paragon fantasy is that you can make heroic choices, save lives, never compromise your morality, women/men/aliens will fall all over themselves about how awesome you are, you will save the galaxy, and it will all work out.

Whereas the Renegade fantasy is that you can behave like you're above the law, supreme arbiter of right and wrong, ruthless and violent whenever it suits you, women/men/aliens will fall all over themselves about how awesome you are, you will save the galaxy, and it will all work out.

Both are fantasies, and both will work out just fine in the end. Neither has any relation to actual morality or pragmatism in the real world.

I'd like both fantasies to be thoroughly crushed by the story. I have some hope that that will come to pass...

[Ieldra]

TheOptimist wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Maybe Ieldra just likes deeper stories instead of cliche hero tales?

Choices aren't meaningful if they are easy to make. Mass Effect is babies, is what I'm saying.

You don't have to make hard choices. You aren't challenges. You just do what feels good, what is expected of you, and you're rewarding.

Paragon is thoughtless and shallow.

Paragon is the path of badassery.  Paragon means Shepard makes things harder on him/her-self because Shepard can damn well handle the extra burden.  Renegades pick the 'safe' way, the way of no risks.  There's an old saying that applies here: No guts, no glory. 

Taking extra risks for no benefit is generally considered stupid in a war. I'd be fine with it nonetheless, if the risk wasn't galactic extinction. You don't take risks with galactic extinction. That is not heroic, but ridiculously stupid. 

[flemm]

I'd like both fantasies to be thoroughly crushed by the story. I have some hope that that will come to pass...

Well, could be, and I expect I personally would still be interested, but I wouldn't count on it. The entire game is about fantasy fulfillment, really. Obviously, a lot of that would be true even if there were no Paragon/Renegade system, but the 'Morality" system is essentially there to add another layer of depth to the fantasy.

Modifié par flemm, 24 août 2011 - 05:06 .

[TheOptimist]

Ieldra2 wrote...

TheOptimist wrote...
So since you voluntarily compromise your morality because you like that kind of story better, you want the developers to force everyone else to do so just so you feel validated?  Nice.

That's not it. I just don't want the story of Mass Effect to be a morality tale, dropping conventional morality like a rain of anvils on my head regardless of any kind of plausibility. That's just cliché and boring. I want an epic drama with believable consequences and ambiguous choices. 

I don't want this:

Once again, my bet is that you can get sunshine and lolipops by being a jerk just as easily as you can by being a hero.  Renegade Shepard could just as easily lose no one on the SM as Paragon Shepard, could complete every loyalty mission, and successfully complete every mission in both ME 1 and ME 2.  Thus, no morality tale, just different means to an end.  And if you WANT high drama and squadmate death, ME 2 especially lets you do that too.

[TheOptimist]

Ieldra2 wrote...


Taking extra risks for no benefit is generally considered stupid in a war. I'd be fine with it nonetheless, if the risk wasn't galactic extinction. You don't take risks with galactic extinction. That is not heroic, but ridiculously stupid. 

Taking risks is a part of war, and thus far I have not seen a Paragon choice that didn't have potential upside, in some cases huge potential upside.

[Xilizhra]

Saphra Deden wrote...

TheOptimist wrote...

Paragon is the path of badassery.  Paragon means Shepard makes things harder on him/her-self because Shepard can damn well handle the extra burden.  Renegades pick the 'safe' way, the way of no risks.  There's an old saying that applies here: No guts, no glory. 

Like I said, the Paragon reeks of arrogance.

"I'm a badass, I can do it all, and what I think is right is more important than your life. I'm the supreme authority, the guiding light."

It's BS.

The Renegade is the responsible path. The Renegade shoulders the burden expected of someone in their position. It's about doing what is necessary, even when you don't really want to.

So tell me when a decision that gave Renegade points was in fact necessary.

[Xilizhra]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So tell me when a decision that gave Renegade points was in fact necessary.

Every single one of them.

Ah, yes, because the galaxy is now doomed because the Destiny Ascension was saved?

[TheOptimist]

Saphra Deden wrote...
Like I said, the Paragon reeks of arrogance.

"I'm a badass, I can do it all, and what I think is right is more important than your life. I'm the supreme authority, the guiding light."

It's BS.

The Renegade is the responsible path. The Renegade shoulders the burden expected of someone in their position. It's about doing what is necessary, even when you don't really want to.

Yeah, telling the council to go to hell 4 separate times instead of explaining their actions like an adult is totally shouldering the burden expected of them.  Renegade is about shoot first, shoot later, shoot some more, and then when everybodies dead, whine because the Paragon got the option to talk to some of them in the second game.

[TheOptimist]

Saphra Deden wrote...

What sunshine and lolipops are Renegades getting?

You win, galaxy saved, whichever person you decide to sleep with hangs around with you, and you can probably save all your companions by telling them to stop being a baby and walk it off.