631 réponses à ce sujet

[Aeowyn]

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

The big decisions are the ones I'm talking about. I don't care about the little stuff.

How do you view the Heretic rewrite/destroy decision?

I'm not Saphra, but personally I am for destroying the Heretics. There is no saying that they won't be affected by the same code that made them worship the Reapers, and I'm not risking it. 
This particular decision though is one of few in ME2 that are very strange, as many has argued that rewriting, essentially brainwashing the geth should've been the renegade decision. I guess it's the "kill" - part that makes it a renegade decision in the developer's eyes. 

Would've killed them if it was a paragon decision too. 

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I know of no Renegade choice that truly eliminates the worst possible future.

The Rachni. 
It only takes indoctrinating the Queen, and all her kids would be used against us. 

Saphra doesn't believe they were indoctrinated.

Even if he / she doesn't, it's not impossible that the reapers can indoctrinate a queen, even if they didn't in the past. 

Did we get told that the Reapers were behind the Rachni Wars or was that fan speculation?

Modifié par Aeowyn, 24 août 2011 - 05:49 .

[Seboist]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
I think a lot of the problem with the Renegade path is that in reality most people aren't actually renegades - they're actually sort of nice.

A true renegade, as depicted by Bioware, would be angered at having allowed the Council to continue it's domination. A true renegade would be disgusted to meet Fist again, when they could have brought him to justice. A true renegade would be alarmed at the rapid progress of the Rachni, and wonder if his mistake had doomed humanity's destiny to dominate the galaxy

Yes. Which is why I don't talk about Renegade decisions in general, only those which could reasonably be said to be pragmatic. Unfortunately, those tend to be the big decisions that dominate the storyline.

As I said, I don't want to be a sociopathic jerk, but neither do I want to be a naive goody-two-shoes. I want to be a character with believable strategic insight, spiced up with the occasional badassery or empathy.

Which is impossible as the choices all exist in a complete vacuum from each other.   A good example of this is like I've said,Shepard doesn't have to worry about the Rachni Queen decision having an affect on the Krogan's perception of him/her as it exists in it's own bubble completely seperated from it.

We're just indulging in false expectations if we actually think we're going to get something that amounts to being more than just cosmetic or for inmersion at this point.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Your spectre status makes a difference in ME3,so saving the council does matter....even though it means dick in ME2.


Also how could you people possibly be arguing this long?

OH wait nvm....

[Ryzaki]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Backfire usually means something NEGATIVE occurs because you did it. Not that because someone did smething else they got a better (or different) outcome. None of those things you listed actually backfired on renegades.

I'm sorry but the lack of something positive the other side gets IS A NEGATIVE!

Besides, Renegade decisions of the kind "KIll X because it may become a threat" by their very nature cannot backfire the way you appear to restrict backfiring to. That's why Renegades make them - better safe than sorry.

Except the other side HASN'T GOTTEN SOMETHING POSITVE! A brief cameo where someone says they will "aid" you WITHOUT GETTING SAID AID. Isn't exactly a plus anymore than saving the CB is for renegades. YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT WILL RESULT FROM THAT. 

Actually it can backfire. Simply by having someone else get pissed about who they killed and comitt atrocities (or go after people they care for) because they killed them. So please stop with the renegade's being punished act. It's not happening.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 août 2011 - 05:50 .

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Renegades can't predict the future so they play it safe.

Paragons don't weigh the possible consequences of their decision, they just follow their moral compass.

Oh, as if no Renegade follows their morals in any way.

As a Paragon, I'm trying to think of the positives and the negatives. Giving the Collector base to TIM, is not something I think will end well, given that Cerberus can't even take care of or keep a dead Reaper. Nor do I think that he'll suddenly turn into Mr. Sharealot and give everything of value from the base to everyone around him. By destroying it, I'm letting him salvage it, but not as much.

I also think of most aliens as temporary allies against the Reapers, not enemies of everything around them. Because they aren't mindless beasts. If they turn into enemies after, we'll deal with them. And it's not even a certainty that they will become enemies. Like the geth. They just want to finish their sphere. After the whole Reaper shtick is done, they'll get back to it, and leave everyone alone.

Anyone can be a potential enemy. That doesn't mean that I have to wipe out a good portion of the galaxy's population to prevent it. As a Renegade would more than likely do. A better thing to do is to come up with a good reason for them to not be an enemy.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Aeowyn wrote...
Did we get told that the Reapers were behind the Rachni Wars or was that fan speculation?

Not explictly no. Not that relevent to my rationale. The Queen controls her children, it only takes controlling her and the Rachni will be against us.

[Someone With Mass]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...
Did we get told that the Reapers were behind the Rachni Wars or was that fan speculation?

Not explictly no. Not that relevent to my rationale. The Queen controls her children, it only takes controlling her and the Rachni will be against us.

Then all it takes is to make sure she's not indoctrinated.

[Aeowyn]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...
Did we get told that the Reapers were behind the Rachni Wars or was that fan speculation?

Not explictly no. Not that relevent to my rationale. The Queen controls her children, it only takes controlling her and the Rachni will be against us.

Yes I understand your reasoning, was just curious because I couldn't remember if it was fan speculation or not. 

Someone With Mass wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...
Did we get told that the Reapers were behind the Rachni Wars or was that fan speculation?

Not explictly no. Not that relevent to my rationale. The Queen controls her children, it only takes controlling her and the Rachni will be against us. 

Then all it takes is to make sure she's not indoctrinated.

Yes, that's very easy to do when you have so many other things to do and take care of...

Modifié par Aeowyn, 24 août 2011 - 05:55 .

[Ryzaki]

TheOptimist wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Backfire usually means something NEGATIVE occurs because you did it. Not that because someone did smething else they got a better (or different) outcome. None of those things you listed actually backfired on renegades.

I'm sorry but the lack of something positive the other side gets IS A NEGATIVE!

No, it really isn't.  I'll say it again, Renegade decisions have had no negative consequences.  The only 'positive' thing Paragons have gotten is more dialogue with people Renegades decided the galaxy was better off without. 

This so much. 

Missing out on a minute cameo is not a consequence peeps. Otherwise I was punished for beinging Wrex to met Fist. It was simply a result of a choice I made. 

Oh noes.. Who would've thought? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 août 2011 - 05:56 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Someone With Mass wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...
Did we get told that the Reapers were behind the Rachni Wars or was that fan speculation?

Not explictly no. Not that relevent to my rationale. The Queen controls her children, it only takes controlling her and the Rachni will be against us.

Then all it takes is to make sure she's not indoctrinated.

Yea, if you hide her somewhere or defend her, but I see that as a waste of time and resources that we cannot afford. Hence, I didn't take the risk, for something I do not think will be of much significance.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 août 2011 - 05:56 .

[JGDD]

Saphra Deden wrote...

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

How do you view the Heretic rewrite/destroy decision?

I lean towards Renegade but I see at least some merit in the Paragon way too.

I should have been more clear with that one: which option do you feel is: [fill in blank]

For me this door can swing both ways with either choice. It was also one of the few really gray areas in ME2.

[flemm]

I want to be a character with believable strategic insight, spiced up with the occasional badassery or empathy.

Well, the game is not designed around believable strategic insight, and I don't expect ME3 to be any different. Realism is not the goal. An example is what you are discussing below...

BTW, what happened in Arrival was actually a Renegade decision, only we didn't get to make it. The Paragon decision would've been to try to wriggle out of having to kill all those batarians. Because it actually *was* necessary, Bioware didn't design it as a decision so that no Paragon would have to complain for getting his rightly deserved game over screen as a result. Even so, there were Paragons who complained about this setup....

The game is not going to give any player a "game over" screen for making either a Paragon or Renegade choice because it is not interested in demonstrating what you are arguing for, i.e. that sometimes certain types of choices will just blow up in your face.

Of course, many of the paragon/renegade choices could have catastrophic results either way, were similar choices played out in the real world, but the whole point is the escapist fantasy.

What you are asking for would be like asking for the game to react to a violent renegade choice by having the police show up and arrest Shepard, leading to the player character being thrown in jail for the rest of his/her life, game over.

Yeah, that could reasonably happen, but that would be lame.

Modifié par flemm, 24 août 2011 - 06:03 .

[Ianamus]

Aeowyn wrote...

I'm not Saphra, but personally I am for destroying the Heretics. There is no saying that they won't be affected by the same code that made them worship the Reapers, and I'm not risking it. 
This particular decision though is one of few in ME2 that are very strange, as many has argued that rewriting, essentially brainwashing the geth should've been the renegade decision. I guess it's the "kill" - part that makes it a renegade decision in the developer's eyes. 

Would've killed them if it was a paragon decision too. 

This is what annoys me about the Paragon/Renegade system. My Paragon SHepard did not want to outright cure the Genophage, becuase the Krogan could be a threat to the other species in the Galaxy, and decided that it was best not to risk harming innocents. Apparently that's renegade.

He also thought that brainwashing the Heretics was no better than Daro'Xen's plan to rewrite the Geth to serve the Quarians- and I bet if you help her in ME3 it will be considered 'renegade'. 

The morality system basically tells you what is considered 'right' and what is considered 'wrong', and it's more complicated than that. Renegade options also often just mean acting like a dick for no reason.

Aeowyn wrote...

Did we get told that the Reapers were behind the Rachni Wars or was that fan speculation?

It was very heavily implied, but I don't think it's been outright confirmed yet. 

Modifié par EJ107, 24 août 2011 - 05:58 .

[Wulfram]

If you really don't trust Legion/the Geth, it would be pretty strange to enter an unknown space station and plant a big bomb. You're taking a huge amount on faith from someone you've just met just by doing the mission.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ryzaki wrote...

TheOptimist wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Backfire usually means something NEGATIVE occurs because you did it. Not that because someone did smething else they got a better (or different) outcome. None of those things you listed actually backfired on renegades.

I'm sorry but the lack of something positive the other side gets IS A NEGATIVE!

No, it really isn't.  I'll say it again, Renegade decisions have had no negative consequences.  The only 'positive' thing Paragons have gotten is more dialogue with people Renegades decided the galaxy was better off without. 

This so much. 

Missing out on a minute cameo is not a consequence peeps. Otherwise I was punished for beinging Wrex to met Fist. It was simply a result of a choice I made. 

Oh noes.. Who would've thought? 

Don't you get it? The point is that the game acknowledges the paragon choice. The universe recognizes it happened. For renegade choices you get nothing. And no, an empty chair is not a recognition of it happening.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...
Did we get told that the Reapers were behind the Rachni Wars or was that fan speculation?

Not explictly no. Not that relevent to my rationale. The Queen controls her children, it only takes controlling her and the Rachni will be against us.

Then all it takes is to make sure she's not indoctrinated.

If you don't know how indoctrination works, how do you plan to do that?

[KnightofPhoenix]

EJ107 wrote...
This is what annoys me about the Paragon/Renegade system. My Paragon SHepard did not want to outright cure the Genophage, becuase the Krogan could be a threat to the other species in the Galaxy, and decided that it was best not to risk harming innocents. Apparently that's renegade.

What annoys me about this choice is how bipolar it is. I wanted to keep the data, and take it myself. I have plans for the Krogans and the data would be invaluable.

But I didn't get the option, so I preserved the data, hoping that in ME3, I can take it and use it.

That's the only choice I made that I might regret, if it ends up resulting in a Krogan population boom and another rebellion, because the game didn't allow me to take the data for myself.

[Someone With Mass]

Aeowyn wrote...
Yes, that's very easy to do when you have so many other things to do and take care of...

Just put her in a secret and secure bunker where she can still bring up foot soldiers. Or call them in if/when you've found a safe way to counter indoctrination if they're so susceptible.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Don't you get it? The point is that the game acknowledges the paragon choice. The universe recognizes it happened. For renegade choices you get nothing. And no, an empty chair is not a recognition of it happening.

Compared to when the seat is taken and you can very well hear the voice of the one sitting in it? Yes, it is.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...
Yes, that's very easy to do when you have so many other things to do and take care of...

Just put her in a secret and secure bunker where she can still bring up foot soldiers. Or call them in if/when you've found a safe way to counter indoctrination if they're so susceptible.

Because the Reapers won't notice the huge outflux of rachni? 
They can probably still indoctrinate officers and through them find out.

[TheOptimist]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Don't you get it? The point is that the game acknowledges the paragon choice. The universe recognizes it happened. For renegade choices you get nothing. And no, an empty chair is not a recognition of it happening.

I'm afraid the empty chair does in fact qualify as recognition, because when you remove someone from the universe, THEY DON'T SHOW UP AND TALK TO YOU.  Bioware made Renegade the default choice, that's all.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

If you don't know how indoctrination works, how do you plan to do that?

Even if I don't know how indoctrination works, I am capable of understanding what's causing it. Reapers and their artifacts/technology.

Just keep her in a secure place where they can't touch her. Off the grid.

[TheOptimist]

outmane wrote...

Just as some other ppl cant believe moraly wrong choices will always bring the best outcome and I guess both sides are right. Problably the most 'realistic' path is a paragade/renegon path. But ME is just a canevas for you to write a story. Why be frustrated about what other ppl see in their playthrough? 

Like I said killing the Feros colonists is a good decision because it prevents them from spreading the Thorian spores around. It feels like a bad decision only when you compare it to the other outcome from hindsight. Shepard will never know he lost an ally by killing the Rachnii Queen because he clensed the world of a possible threat and is damn proud of it. Hes got no crystal ball like we do to see what he missed.

What im saying is comparing paths is a bad idea because they are contradictory in the fact that both are designed to bring the the player to a happy outcome at the end. They are not made to be realistic or offer a moral compass. 

If you believe that sacrifices have to be made to get victory you can write that story. If you feel like only the higher moral ground can save the universe then you can write that one too. You can also write the story of how a perfect **** saved the universe by killing everything on his way. Of course, your story will probably be more interesting to read at the end then a classic fairy tale. That doesnt mean the game shouldnt let fairytale lovers write their fairytale. You and I dotn have to read them.

I wish more of the Renegade and Paragade fans had your outlook on things.