631 réponses à ce sujet

[TheOptimist]

Dave of Canada wrote...

TheOptimist wrote...

Since thus far Renegade choices have had zero real consequences, I fail to see how they're getting 'screwed'. Anything a Paragon can do a Renegade can bully his way into doing as well.

Incorrect.

Renegades get less references and cameos to stuff they do in Mass Effect 1, some outright don't mention the big choices you've done and there's little purpose in importing a Renegade from ME1.

You get less cameos and references because the you killed the people making the cameos and only Shepard gets to come back from death.  Your Shepard felt the galaxy was a better place without those people in it.  You're not being punished, you're being given what your Shepard wanted.

People absolutely loathe you, which makes sense in some context, though they were supporting you five seconds earlier.

Wait, telling people what they don't want to hear and putting them down makes them dislike you? Ya don't say.  This isn't a consequence, it's a feature.  You treat people that way because you want that reaction.

Renegade decisions make no sense (metagame) when the Paragon decision offers the same and more.

'And more' like what? And don't say character interaction.  Again, if you kill people to solve a problem, THEY'RE DEAD. There is no tangible benefit to picking Paragon over Renegade.

Renegades can't claim some loyalties they lose from certain choices, though Paragons can use their charm option for others.

I'm almost positive you can successfully complete every loyalty mission using a renegade option, so I don't see why you're complaining that Renegades have more variety to their decisions than Paragons do.

Edit: Kind-of but not really, Renegades pay more resources.

I'm gonna go with not really.

[SandTrout]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Oh gasp, ontopic bringing up of negative aspects of Mass Effect bring brought in threads about the topic? What shall I do?

You should know better than to let silly little things like facts get in the way.

[Someone With Mass]

Dave of Canada wrote...

... except, I do think? I've given my reasoning countless times, you dismissed it by calling me a retard / whiner / ******.

That's because you come across like that.

[ThePwener]

Dave of Canada wrote...

shep82 wrote...

Being Renegade your choices do matter and do have an impact on ME 2.

How?

Killed Council? Everyone hates you.

Killed Wrex? Say hello to bastard child....

ect.

Mostly they're bad choices with even worse consequences. That's why Im a Paragade. Best of both worlds.

[Someone With Mass]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

In ME2, with it's broken system.

I am assuming that Bioware will not be using the ME2 system for paragon/renegade in ME3, having realised how broken it was.

They will.

[shep82]

Dave of Canada wrote...

shep82 wrote...

Being Renegade your choices do matter and do have an impact on ME 2.

How?

Lets see well if you let the council die you don't get to see them, you are considered by most a ruthless mercenary, you have more respect by some of the merc groups, your conversation with conrad ( i know it's glitched but there's a fix) and there are others. It may not be as impactfull as you'd like but it's fine IMO.

[Rahmiel]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

You shouldn't have to make a decision that you disagree with to open up further conversation options - ME2 is exceptionally broken in this regard.

But, you shouldn't be able to get the 'most optimal ending' by just being 100% paragon, or 100% renegade, in my opinion.

This is where I disagree with you on the endings.  I don't see my paragon endings as being optimal.  They're optimal from a paragon standpoint, but I played choosing paragon choices.  If I went and played as a renegade, then the ending would be a renegade ending.  Neither are "optimal" but as long as they fit within what we've chosen.. sure.

I mean, I chose not to save the collector base in ME2, but I don't see that ending as any better than keeping the collector base.  It's just a poor ending for my paragon shep, but great for my renegade shep.  Which is optimal?  Depends on what you're trying to optimise.

If you feel that paragon endings are optimal, then why not play as a paragon?  I do think that ME2 blurred the paragon/renegade into good/evil, or reward/punishment.  I mean.. paragons have no interrupts that hurt people?  Come on, why don't I get an interrupt to shut up a villian?  Renegades get to punch a reporter.. but then again, that's not the "optimal" renegade option.  To maximise or "optimise" your renegade points, you don't actually punch her.  You choose the red text.

All in all, I just see people more upset with paragon endings, but I don't know why because they don't play as a paragon.

[crimzontearz]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Memmahkth wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

ThePwener wrote...

Looks like BW finally found the right way to do it. Glad to see that the blind Paragon zealots will get what's coming to them.

To be fair, I hope the blind Renegade maniacs get what's coming to them, too.

To be fair I've never seen a paragon zealot,seen a few renegades though.

I make all my choices out to be paragon.  I mean, whether or not you choose renegade or paragon, you get bonuses or additional text for making paragon/renegade choices.  So.. why not keep making them to make sure you have the right tally of p/r point total to use in conversations.

I'm not against BW from making a game where you have to navigate through text and make decisions.  But so far in the Mass Effect series, you're rewarded for making p/r decisions, and infact the bonuses you get help you to make further ones.

I guess my point is.. why would BW change this now, going into the third game.  I'm not against it in another game series or game.. but really, in ME3 you want to start punishing players from gaining paragon/renegade points?  Meaning to make the "right decision" I have to have chosen a dialogue path I do not necessarily agree with, to gain points, to open up a conversation option in a discussion.  Otherwise, I'm stuck with the "feels right" decision?

I dunno..

You shouldn't have to make a decision that you disagree with to open up further conversation options - ME2 is exceptionally broken in this regard.

But, you shouldn't be able to get the 'most optimal ending' by just being 100% paragon, or 100% renegade, in my opinion.

but since tou are FORCED to pick 100% paragon or 100% renegade by the dialectic progression system you may as well get optimal endings following those paths or else you are screwed one way or the other

In ME2, with it's broken system.

I am assuming that Bioware will not be using the ME2 system for paragon/renegade in ME3, having realised how broken it was.

did you see the character screens? There is no "charm/intimidate". There are persuasion bonuses like in ME 2......so I guess they are probably gonna keep that system...OR.....hoepfully they will allow us to transfer those meters with NG+ so we will be able to max them and do whatever the hell we want

[TheOptimist]

Seboist wrote...

There's plenty of logical replacement cameos and the deaths of those characters that can be killed should have an impact to the galacy at large.

Instead what we get is a black hole of nothing where the game acts like the previous choices we've made never happened.

So you're complaining that your Shepard got his/her wish and erased that person from the galaxy?  Congrats on wanting to have your cake and eat it too.  And deaths do have an impact.  Feros colony ceases to exist if you pull renegade and I believe the news mentions it.  You have successfully prevented Helena Blakes gang from continuing to sell Red Sand.  Rana Thanoptis is not once again perverting science.  Those people are absent from the Galaxy, and in any RenSheps eyes, it is the better for that absense.

[Seboist]

ThePwener wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

shep82 wrote...

Being Renegade your choices do matter and do have an impact on ME 2.

How?

Killed Council? Everyone hates you.

Killed Wrex? Say hello to bastard child....

ect.

Mostly they're bad choices with even worse consequences. That's why Im a Paragade. Best of both worlds.

Having (council) aliens hate Shepard actually isn't an issue, what is the issue however is the lack of seeing the new council and any kind of appreciation from the Alliance brass for being made militarily stronger on the galactic scene.

[Someone With Mass]

crimzontearz wrote...
did you see the character screens? There is no "charm/intimidate". There are persuasion bonuses like in ME 2......so I guess they are probably gonna keep that system...OR.....hoepfully they will allow us to transfer those meters with NG+ so we will be able to max them and do whatever the hell we want

I'd like if they tossed the Paragon/Renegade BS out the window and made a system similar to the one Fallout 3 has.

[ThePwener]

Seboist wrote...

Having (council) aliens hate Shepard actually isn't an issue, what is the issue however is the lack of seeing the new council and any kind of appreciation from the Alliance brass for being made militarily stronger on the galactic scene.

We Renegades wiill get our time (Darth Shepard/TIM replacement!). There was also mention of seeing the new council in ME3.

[Boiny Bunny]

Memmahkth wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

You shouldn't have to make a decision that you disagree with to open up further conversation options - ME2 is exceptionally broken in this regard.

But, you shouldn't be able to get the 'most optimal ending' by just being 100% paragon, or 100% renegade, in my opinion.

This is where I disagree with you on the endings.  I don't see my paragon endings as being optimal.  They're optimal from a paragon standpoint, but I played choosing paragon choices.  If I went and played as a renegade, then the ending would be a renegade ending.  Neither are "optimal" but as long as they fit within what we've chosen.. sure.

I mean, I chose not to save the collector base in ME2, but I don't see that ending as any better than keeping the collector base.  It's just a poor ending for my paragon shep, but great for my renegade shep.  Which is optimal?  Depends on what you're trying to optimise.

If you feel that paragon endings are optimal, then why not play as a paragon?  I do think that ME2 blurred the paragon/renegade into good/evil, or reward/punishment.  I mean.. paragons have no interrupts that hurt people?  Come on, why don't I get an interrupt to shut up a villian?  Renegades get to punch a reporter.. but then again, that's not the "optimal" renegade option.  To maximise or "optimise" your renegade points, you don't actually punch her.  You choose the red text.

All in all, I just see people more upset with paragon endings, but I don't know why because they don't play as a paragon.

I think you've misunderstand my use of the word 'optimal'.  If I applied 'optimal' to ME2, it would mean, all squadmates and Shepard survive the suicide mission.

If I applied it to ME3, it would mean that as many species/planets/humans/squadmates are saved as is possible in the game.  I believe that 100% paragon or 100% renegade choices should not lead to this outcome - as both, are at times, illogical.

What I'm saying is, I want to see different consequences for different decisions, instead of just different tones of voice and slightly different conversations.  Killed the council in ME1?  Turians are much harder to convince to side with you in ME3.  Let Balak go in ME1?  He just came back and destroyed a major human military staging colony using a similar ploy, not only killing millions, but weakening the human military in ME3.  Those are the sorts of things I want to see - though not necessarily on that scale all the time.

[ThePwener]

Someone With Mass wrote...

I'd like if they tossed the Paragon/Renegade BS out the window and made a system similar to the one Fallout 3 has.

You mean talk the same way no matter you're Karma and be constantly followed by cowboys/mercs trying to kill you? No thanks. That system was underdeveloped and cheap.

[Dave of Canada]

TheOptimist wrote...

You get less cameos and references because the you killed the people making the cameos and only Shepard gets to come back from death.  Your Shepard felt the galaxy was a better place without those people in it.  You're not being punished, you're being given what your Shepard wanted.

It's entirely possible to create cameos and references without the characters you've killed showing up. If I've killed somebody's entire family, the universe isn't going to forget what I've done.

Killed the Rachni Queen? Meet a scientist who was on Noveria!
Killed Shiala? Meet Liz instead of nameless colonist 3423.
Killed Fist? Have people mention it on the Citadel.
Killed the Council? Have the new Council show up.

ect

Wait, telling people what they don't want to hear and putting them down makes them dislike you? Ya don't say.  This isn't a consequence, it's a feature.  You treat people that way because you want that reaction.

Here's a very obvious example which is clearly not a "feature".

Explain to me the Collector Base.

Companion: "It's logical to keep the Base."
*later*
Companion: "You're an idiot for keeping the base, why did you listen to me?"

'And more' like what? And don't say character interaction.  Again, if you kill people to solve a problem, THEY'RE DEAD. There is no tangible benefit to picking Paragon over Renegade.

Renegade is sacrificing everything to achieve mission completion, Paragon is willing to put the mission on the backburner to fill their morality. The problem with the system, Paragon always achieves the mission and gets out with their morality intact.

Why do you sacrifice people who aren't necessary to sacrifice when you can do the exact same thing the Renegade does and kept your precious morality intact?

I'm almost positive you can successfully complete every loyalty mission using a renegade option, so I don't see why you're complaining that Renegades have more variety to their decisions than Paragons do.

You can, assuming you ignore some Renegade choices and do other ones instead. Feel free to screw over your friends as a Paragon and you can charm your loyalty out of them, such as Zaeed. Try to do the same for the Renegade when presented with similar choices? You're out of luck, sorry.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 24 août 2011 - 01:38 .

[Boiny Bunny]

@ crimsontearz: Bioware have stated what we've seen so far in terms of paragon/renegade meters, and even skill trees, is not what will be in the final game, and should be ignored for the moment.

I sincerely doubt that they would be foolish enough to import a system that they've recognised as having major problems into ME3.

[TheOptimist]

ThePwener wrote...

Killed Council? Everyone hates you.

Killed Wrex? Say hello to bastard child....

ect.

Mostly they're bad choices with even worse consequences. That's why Im a Paragade. Best of both worlds.

If you killed the Council, its cause you they weren't worth saving and here's hoping the humans do a better job. And again, you can renegade browbeat Wrex into backing down, so even as a complete renegade, you CHOSE to do that one.

[Seboist]

TheOptimist wrote...

Seboist wrote...

There's plenty of logical replacement cameos and the deaths of those characters that can be killed should have an impact to the galacy at large.

Instead what we get is a black hole of nothing where the game acts like the previous choices we've made never happened.

So you're complaining that your Shepard got his/her wish and erased that person from the galaxy?  Congrats on wanting to have your cake and eat it too.  And deaths do have an impact.  Feros colony ceases to exist if you pull renegade and I believe the news mentions it.  You have successfully prevented Helena Blakes gang from continuing to sell Red Sand.  Rana Thanoptis is not once again perverting science.  Those people are absent from the Galaxy, and in any RenSheps eyes, it is the better for that absense.

Yeah, wanting the renegade import to be different from the non-import default is "wanting to have my cake and eat it". Riiiiiiight.

Modifié par Seboist, 24 août 2011 - 01:40 .

[ThePwener]

TheOptimist wrote...

ThePwener wrote...

Killed Council? Everyone hates you.

Killed Wrex? Say hello to bastard child....

ect.

Mostly they're bad choices with even worse consequences. That's why Im a Paragade. Best of both worlds.

If you killed the Council, its cause you they weren't worth saving and here's hoping the humans do a better job. And again, you can renegade browbeat Wrex into backing down, so even as a complete renegade, you CHOSE to do that one.

Kill Wrex!? Are you insane!? The only reason I know Wreav even exists is because of the BSN!

[Boiny Bunny]

Killing Wrex is not a renegade decision, to be clear.

If you have maxed out charm or intimidate, you can use paragon or renegade options to convince him to stand down. Or, if you found his family armour, he'll back down anyway.

Or you can kill him under any of the above scenarios, if you choose - but this option is not a renegade option.

[Harid]

If this means paragon choices aren't the all around right choices like they pretty much have been since KOTOR, then, thank you Bioware for finally getting it.

Being good doesn't always have good results for people, and it was tiring seeing things play out that way in your games.

Hopefully this can lead to outright abandonment of the Paragon/Renegade system.

Modifié par Harid, 24 août 2011 - 01:42 .

[Seboist]

You get Paragon points for intimidating Wrex IIRC.

[ThePwener]

Harid wrote...

If this means paragon choices aren't the all around right choices like they pretty much have been since KOTOR, then, thank you Bioware for finally getting it.

Being good doesn't always have good results for people, and it was tiring seeing things play out that way in your games.

Hopefully this can lead to outright abandonment of the Paragon/Renegade system.

Alpha Protocol did things so right. Why couldn't ME have been more like that masterpiece?

[Someone With Mass]

ThePwener wrote...

You mean talk the same way no matter you're Karma and be constantly followed by cowboys/mercs trying to kill you? No thanks. That system was underdeveloped and cheap.

No, where it doesn't matter if I'm Renegade or Paragon and can take on speech challenges regardless of my opinion.

Or, even better. Make the neutral responses worth a damn.

The only neutral response that I've seen which was actually better than the Paragon/Renegade responses was at the end of LotSB, with Liara in the cabin.