631 réponses à ce sujet

[sedrikhcain]

Abirn wrote...

TheOptimist wrote...

Abirn wrote...

Keeping the reaper base was clearly the logical choice.  Yet it was the "renegade" choice.  

Yes, after all, Cerberus' track record with dangerous research projects is so stellar. There's no way you could logically infer it will backfire horribly.

Huge god like machines are coming to exterminate all organic life in the univierse.  And we have a piece of technology that can be studied to learn about them and help in our defense.  Cerberus's intentions be dammed, if you are fighting against extinction you pull out all the stops. 

I think the very fact that so many people argue over this point means bioware got that choice just right.

[DarkPsylocke26]

I do the paragon mostly, but sometimes i do renegade action also.

[TheOptimist]

Abirn wrote...
Huge god like machines are coming to exterminate all organic life in the univierse.  And we have a piece of technology that can be studied to learn about them and help in our defense.  Cerberus's intentions be dammed, if you are fighting against extinction you pull out all the stops. 

Screw Cerberus' intentions, I'm talking about the potential consequences of letting them have yet more indoctrination bait.  After having narrowly stopped them from creating potentially galaxy threatening problems TWICE (Depot Sigma and Overlord), I have no intention of letting them have try #3.

[Golden Owl]

AClockworkMelon wrote...

All of this could be fixed by shuffling all the options so players don't know what's blue and red based on its color or position and they're forced to actually *gasp* read and decide what they think is good or bad. Really, there shouldn't be a morality system at all.

Which would be an 'Absolutely' from me if the dialog wheel better fitted the actual dialog.

[sedrikhcain]

Memmahkth wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...
Renegade is sacrificing everything to achieve mission completion, Paragon is willing to put the mission on the backburner to fill their morality. The problem with the system, Paragon always achieves the mission and gets out with their morality intact.

Incorrect.  In Zaeed's loyalty mission, if Shepard chooses the paragon option of saving the workers in the refinery, then Santiago gets away.  The mission is basically failed.  So no achieve + paragon there.  

Well, yes and no. Zaeed's mission was to kill Santiago but Shepard's mission was to earn Zaeed's loyalty. The people emerged as circumstance upon arrival. And if your paragon or renegade scores are even a little high, you can pull Zaeed into line and make him loyal right at the end of the mission, after Santiago gets away. Mission accomplished.

Modifié par sedrikhcain, 24 août 2011 - 02:54 .

[Boiny Bunny]

sedrikhcain wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

If it means that always picking the blue option without thinking at all will not lead to the best outcome for once, I'm all for it.

In my experience, when there are blue or red options, they generally BOTH provide a means to a favorable outcome that otherwise would be unavailable. There are also plenty of times when non-red paragon actions offer you ways to resolve things. Just as there are paragon options that make you work harder to satisfy your more "positive" morality.

Blue and red often provide better options than white, and blue often provides a better option than red - both when considered from an after-the-event perspective.

As far as whether some of the "nice guy" choices go, like not killing the rachni queen and destroying the collector base, I think we need to wait until we see what happens in ME3 before we evaluate that.

I'm sure there will be plenty of discussion and evaluating when ME3 does come out - the purpose of this thread, much like most other threads on this forum, is not to evaluate what has been put into the game (unknown), but rather to discuss the possibilities.

It seems like people have some intense desire to see being a nice guy blow up in people's faces. Well, the options are paragon/renegade but they're all towards the same objective, so I think that's unrealistic.

I have an intense desire to see paragon and renegade decisions blow up in the player's face - when they respectively represent a foolish option.

What is realistic, is for decisions to not work out the way you want them to every single time.

Modifié par Boiny Bunny, 24 août 2011 - 02:48 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Actually,Zaeed says himself the job was to free the factory,he took it because Vido was there.

[Zu Long]

sedrikhcain wrote...

Memmahkth wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...
Renegade is sacrificing everything to achieve mission completion, Paragon is willing to put the mission on the backburner to fill their morality. The problem with the system, Paragon always achieves the mission and gets out with their morality intact.

Incorrect.  In Zaeed's loyalty mission, if Shepard chooses the paragon option of saving the workers in the refinery, then Santiago gets away.  The mission is basically failed.  So no achieve + paragon there.  

Well, yes and no. Zaeed's mission was to kill Santiago but Shepard's mission was to earn Zaeed's loyalty. The people emerged as circumstance upon arrival. And if your paragon or renegade scores are even a little high, you can pull Zaeed into line and make him loyal right at the end of the mission, after Santiago gets away.

Actually the MISSION was to rescue the enslaved factory workers (check the mission profile if you don't believe me). Zaeed decided to let his revenge get in the way of that mission. Frankly, if Bioware HAD made it mandatory that you lose Zaeed's loyalty and he dies, my paragon Shepard would not have cared.

[Someone With Mass]

Zu Long wrote...

Actually the MISSION was to rescue the enslaved factory workers (check the mission profile if you don't believe me). Zaeed decided to let his revenge get in the way of that mission. Frankly, if Bioware HAD made it mandatory that you lose Zaeed's loyalty and he dies, my paragon Shepard would not have cared.

Especially after the suicide mission, when you can simply choose to not give a rat's ass about him and let him die in the fire.

[sedrikhcain]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

If it means that always picking the blue option without thinking at all will not lead to the best outcome for once, I'm all for it.

In my experience, when there are blue or red options, they generally BOTH provide a means to a favorable outcome that otherwise would be unavailable. There are also plenty of times when non-red paragon actions offer you ways to resolve things. Just as there are paragon options that make you work harder to satisfy your more "positive" morality.

Blue and red often provide better options than white, and blue often provides a better option than red - both when considered from an after-the-event perspective.

As far as whether some of the "nice guy" choices go, like not killing the rachni queen and destroying the collector base, I think we need to wait until we see what happens in ME3 before we evaluate that.

I'm sure there will be plenty of discussion and evaluating when ME3 does come out - the purpose of this thread, much like most other threads on this forum, is not to evaluate what has been put into the game (unknown), but rather to discuss the possibilities.

It seems like people have some intense desire to see being a nice guy blow up in people's faces. Well, the options are paragon/renegade but they're all towards the same objective, so I think that's unrealistic.

I have an intense desire to see paragon and renegade decisions blow up in the player's face - when they respectively represent a foolish option.

What is realistic, is for decisions to not work out the way you want them to every single time.

Most of the really big decisions won't bear fruit -- bad, good or indifferent  -- your post read as if many of these things had been resolved unsatisfactorily, in your opinion.

When has an option in red resulted in a bad outcome? it's a bonus dialogue option to give you a way to resolve "impossible" situations. e.g., gaining Tali's loyalty without sending her into exile.

Also, quite a few times, I've done what I thought was right and it hasn't worked out the way I wanted. It hasn't been  "you can't beat the game anymore" bad but, frankly, I don't want that.

Modifié par sedrikhcain, 24 août 2011 - 03:00 .

[sedrikhcain]

Zu Long wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

Memmahkth wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...
Renegade is sacrificing everything to achieve mission completion, Paragon is willing to put the mission on the backburner to fill their morality. The problem with the system, Paragon always achieves the mission and gets out with their morality intact.

Incorrect.  In Zaeed's loyalty mission, if Shepard chooses the paragon option of saving the workers in the refinery, then Santiago gets away.  The mission is basically failed.  So no achieve + paragon there.  

Well, yes and no. Zaeed's mission was to kill Santiago but Shepard's mission was to earn Zaeed's loyalty. The people emerged as circumstance upon arrival. And if your paragon or renegade scores are even a little high, you can pull Zaeed into line and make him loyal right at the end of the mission, after Santiago gets away.

Actually the MISSION was to rescue the enslaved factory workers (check the mission profile if you don't believe me). Zaeed decided to let his revenge get in the way of that mission. Frankly, if Bioware HAD made it mandatory that you lose Zaeed's loyalty and he dies, my paragon Shepard would not have cared.

No, it's not. Your entire involvement with that is to gain Zaeed's loyalty. The mission profile becomes "save the factory workers" after you make your decision. you never would've been there if not for Zaeed.

[sedrikhcain]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Actually,Zaeed says himself the job was to free the factory,he took it because Vido was there.

the mission is called:
Before he was hired by Cerberus, Zaeed had taken a mission to go to Zorya and liberate an Eldfell-Ashland refinery from the Blue Suns. Once his work there is done, he can dedicate his full attention to the mission.

You make a choice about what your specific mission is after you get there.

[Boiny Bunny]

sedrikhcain wrote...

Most of the really big decisions won't bear fruit -- bad, good or indifferent  -- your post read as if many of these things had been resolved unsatisfactorily, in your opinion.

When has an option in red resulted in a bad outcome? it's a bonus dialogue option to give you a way to resolve "impossible" situations. e.g., gaining Tali's loyalty without sending her into exile.

Also, quite a few times, I've done what I thought was right and it hasn't worked out the way I wanted. It hasn't been  "you can't beat the game anymore" bad but, frankly, I don't want that.

A good deal of options in red contain bad outcomes right when you select them.  Example: Kill Balak - 5 hostages die instantly.

I also don't want choices to lead to ending the game pre-maturely - but they can certainly have an affect on the ending itself.  For example, perhaps saving the Rachni queen led to the Rachni helping you in the final battle, saving you precious time before you retake the Earth, resulting in 1 billion extra human lives being saved.  Or, perhaps saving the Rachni queen does the opposite, and you have to waste time fighting her and her Rachni horde in ME3, resulting in 2 billion extra human deaths.

[Rahmiel]

I'll take everyone's word for it that Zaeed's loyalty mission is not to kill Vido. So if it's not, then why do renegades not save the factory workers? Shouldn't the paragon and renegade option be to save the workers? I mean, that *is* the mission.

I just don't see how blue options are better than red options. If I'm playing as a renegade, then I'll make red decisions and expect renegade results. If the result is not in-line with the playstyle, then sure, raise a stink. But if you're playing as a renegade, looking over at the paragon, and saying.. why do they get such and such.. I mean.. it sounds more like you should be playing paragon.

[Kalak]

SandTrout wrote...

ThePwener wrote...

Looks like BW finally found the right way to do it. Glad to see that the blind Paragon zealots will get what's coming to them.

To be fair, I hope the blind Renegade maniacs get what's coming to them, too.

Thank you....glad I'm not the only one bothered by this.

[rapscallioness]

Memmahkth wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...
Renegade is sacrificing everything to achieve mission completion, Paragon is willing to put the mission on the backburner to fill their morality. The problem with the system, Paragon always achieves the mission and gets out with their morality intact.

Incorrect.  In Zaeed's loyalty mission, if Shepard chooses the paragon option of saving the workers in the refinery, then Santiago gets away.  The mission is basically failed.  So no achieve + paragon there.  Same thing in ME1, with bringing down the sky dlc.. balak or the colonists.  You save the colony either way, but balak gets away or he does not (at the cost of lives).  I wouldn't call either a "Paragon always achieves the mission and gets out with their morality intact".

Is there a mission where a renegade achieves the mission and does not get out with their morality intact?

But for me the mission was to gain Zaeed's loyalty. I didn't give a damn about Vido. I was trying to help out Zaeed so we could get on to the Collector's.

I saved the workers. Some call that Paragon. I call it "I was Fed Up w/ Zaeed".

By the time we got there he had already gotten up in my face with his , "don't you call that a grudge..."<_<

Then we get there...and I was all down for getting Vido...this crazy man goes off on his own thing, blowing stuff up. I think we coulda gotten Vido w/out him blowing everything up.

After all that I was like..pffft..forget you and your 20 year old chip on your shoulder. I don't care abt. your revenge on Vido. and him shooting you in the face. Heck, I was abt to shoot him in the face myself.

So yeah, I chose the workers, not over Vido, but over Zaeed. (I was like I don't need this crap from you. You down loadable content, you.)

And I still got his loyalty.

[TheOptimist]

rapscallioness wrote...
But for me the mission was to gain Zaeed's loyalty. I didn't give a damn about Vido. I was trying to help out Zaeed so we could get on to the Collector's.

I saved the workers. Some call that Paragon. I call it "I was Fed Up w/ Zaeed".

By the time we got there he had already gotten up in my face with his , "don't you call that a grudge..."<_<

Then we get there...and I was all down for getting Vido...this crazy man goes off on his own thing, blowing stuff up. I think we coulda gotten Vido w/out him blowing everything up.

After all that I was like..pffft..forget you and your 20 year old chip on your shoulder. I don't care abt. your revenge on Vido. and him shooting you in the face. Heck, I was abt to shoot him in the face myself.

So yeah, I chose the workers, not over Vido, but over Zaeed. (I was like I don't need this crap from you. You down loadable content, you.)

And I still got his loyalty.

Yeah, in a twist from the usual the charm option is essentially Paragon Shep telling Zaieed that if he so much as sneezes without permission he will be shot without a second thought.  I found it refreshing.

[rapscallioness]

Then w/ Rana. I wanted to kill her in ME2, but I didn't get the option! Did I miss it? I mean, I was searching for it. I was w/ Jack and she said, "That's gonna bite you in the ass." I'm thinking yeah, well tell BW abt. it.

That I don't like. Give me all my options in dialogue so I can truly make the choices I want to make. Just because I've been goin' along all paragon the past few choices, doesn't mean this particular situation doesn't call for a bullet.

Maybe in ME3 the choices will be more...difficult, or grey area like w/ the Geth rewrite or destroy. Either choice w/ that one was....I had to think abt. that. It didn't feel like there was a clearly right choice. I liked that.

[Quole]

Almost all my decisions are renegade and I always feel that Im doing the right thing.

[Zu Long]

sedrikhcain wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Actually,Zaeed says himself the job was to free the factory,he took it because Vido was there.

the mission is called:
Before he was hired by Cerberus, Zaeed had taken a mission to go to Zorya and liberate an Eldfell-Ashland refinery from the Blue Suns. Once his work there is done, he can dedicate his full attention to the mission.

You make a choice about what your specific mission is after you get there.

I bolded part of your post for emphasis. Zaeed's mission, which you are joining him on out of the goodness of your heart, is to liberate the refinery. He choses to deviate from that mission, but that doesn't change the fact that the mission is, in fact, to liberate the refinery. Paragon Shepard makes even makes a big point of reminding Zaeed of this at the end of the mission.

Modifié par Zu Long, 24 août 2011 - 03:47 .

[sedrikhcain]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

Most of the really big decisions won't bear fruit -- bad, good or indifferent  -- your post read as if many of these things had been resolved unsatisfactorily, in your opinion.

When has an option in red resulted in a bad outcome? it's a bonus dialogue option to give you a way to resolve "impossible" situations. e.g., gaining Tali's loyalty without sending her into exile.

Also, quite a few times, I've done what I thought was right and it hasn't worked out the way I wanted. It hasn't been  "you can't beat the game anymore" bad but, frankly, I don't want that.

A good deal of options in red contain bad outcomes right when you select them.  Example: Kill Balak - 5 hostages die instantly.

I also don't want choices to lead to ending the game pre-maturely - but they can certainly have an affect on the ending itself.  For example, perhaps saving the Rachni queen led to the Rachni helping you in the final battle, saving you precious time before you retake the Earth, resulting in 1 billion extra human lives being saved.  Or, perhaps saving the Rachni queen does the opposite, and you have to waste time fighting her and her Rachni horde in ME3, resulting in 2 billion extra human deaths.

No argument from me on that. It's just that, as I said before, we need to see ME3 come out before we know.

And for Balak, it's been a while but doesn't the paragon option mean Balak gets away?

[rapscallioness]

Quole wrote...

Almost all my decisions are renegade and I always feel that Im doing the right thing.

I'm definitely paragade. A lil more para than gade but...hey.

It's like they have these weird definitions about what's rengade and paragade. There are some characters that Shepard may shoot down and it's called a renegade move. Yet, I could very easily see situations where that same action could be considered paragon. You're doing something for the good of the greater.

For me it really depends on the situation and the backstory and all that.

[Sisterofshane]

Kalak wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

ThePwener wrote...

Looks like BW finally found the right way to do it. Glad to see that the blind Paragon zealots will get what's coming to them.

To be fair, I hope the blind Renegade maniacs get what's coming to them, too.

Thank you....glad I'm not the only one bothered by this.

The OP sort-of touches on this (although with an apparent chip on the shoulder).  There are decisions and plot points that should come back to haunt BOTH types of zealots -- because in real life this is usually what would happen.

And to make it a "fair" game, it should be ****** for tat.  Maybe paragons have to deal with Balak again -- but then renegades should lose the loyalty of the council races for sacrificing the Destiny Ascension.  Even then, it would be the same as saying that you should be "rewarded" if you are the type of person that plays like you would in real life (drawing equally from both Paragon and Renegade, or maybe with a slight bias either way).

I'm just sick and tired of people thinking that they should be "rewarded" for making what they reason to be the most logical answer (on both sides).  In real life, you can do everything right and still get kicked in the a**.  In my opinion, the best game would see that players can't control everything, and there should be things that happen beyond all rhyme and reason.

[sedrikhcain]

Zu Long wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Actually,Zaeed says himself the job was to free the factory,he took it because Vido was there.

the mission is called:
Before he was hired by Cerberus, Zaeed had taken a mission to go to Zorya and liberate an Eldfell-Ashland refinery from the Blue Suns. Once his work there is done, he can dedicate his full attention to the mission.

You make a choice about what your specific mission is after you get there.

I bolded part of your post for emphasis. Zaeed's mission, which you are joining him on out of the goodness of your heart, is to liberate the refinery. He choses to deviate from that mission, but that doesn't change the fact that the mission is, in fact, to liberate the refinery. Paragon Shepard makes even makes a big point of reminding Zaeed of this at the end of the mission.

But liberate the refinery doesn't mean save people, it means eliminating the blue suns presence. That could involve just killing everybody. And, at any rate, my point is, you're there to get Zaeed in line. So really you both have ulterior motives.

[Sharn01]

Abirn wrote...

TheOptimist wrote...

Abirn wrote...

Keeping the reaper base was clearly the logical choice.  Yet it was the "renegade" choice.  

Yes, after all, Cerberus' track record with dangerous research projects is so stellar. There's no way you could logically infer it will backfire horribly.

Huge god like machines are coming to exterminate all organic life in the univierse.  And we have a piece of technology that can be studied to learn about them and help in our defense.  Cerberus's intentions be dammed, if you are fighting against extinction you pull out all the stops. 

Incorrect, the logical choice is once again not an option here, you can choose to blow up a base that could possibly provide tech to help against the reapers, or give it to a psycopath.  Clearly disregarding TIM's desires and giving the base to someone else would never cross anyones mind.