1310 réponses à ce sujet

[Myaku1313]

Reptillius wrote...

Myaku1313 wrote...

Reptillius wrote...

forum.ea.com/eaforum/posts/list/7489278.page

The afformentioned post in the EA forums themselves.  Be forwarned. many of the responses in it are the same angry responses and individual threats to the company as espoused in this thread and others but there are answers in it.

Ty! *gives cookies*


Wait is it just me or did they reword that EULA in section 2. oThat sure reads a lot better and is a bit more personal. XD

It has actually been reworded a bit a couple of times to be a bit clearer. Something that many are still outraging over the initial part are not taking into account unfortunately. I could be mean and say it's because their gamercritic site overlords are not actually reporting those changes because it doesn't suit them but the realistic side of me knows that that is not the case. 

Many people just need something to complain about and tend to hold onto things reguardless and the nature of the internet tends to be third hand information at best sadly.  We'll probably see this make its way through the internet and pop up 6 or 7 months from now like it's a brand new thing somehow.

I can wear my tin foil hat now?

[Deathwurm]

Reptillius wrote...
I understand where some of the rage and desire for privacy comes from but at the same time Not everything they ask for is some kind of Devil's bargain.  What our systems are capable of plays a part in the forward movement of the industry as well. 

I'm not against the collection of Technical Data for the purpose of improving Gameplay and resolving issues at all. In fact, I'd go a step further than you do and say that there is often a more immediate Benefit rather than just a long-term one...if they collect performance data and it shows that at a certain point in the game under certain configurations there seems to be a glitch I imagine that it leads to a more effective and quicker patching of the problem.

They don't require a lot of the other Data that they are reserving the Right to collect however. It has no bearing on improving their product.

[Jerrybnsn]

BlahDog wrote...

If only companies realized DRM can cost them as much money as it is supposed to save just by angering the legit consumers through ridiculous authentification software. All of them should learn a lesson from From Dust

And what lesson would that be? 

[billy the squid]

Reptillius wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

MaaZeus wrote...

Reptillius wrote...

forum.ea.com/eaforum/posts/list/7489278.page

The afformentioned post in the EA forums themselves.  Be forwarned. many of the responses in it are the same angry responses and individual threats to the company as espoused in this thread and others but there are answers in it.

If it really has an option to opt out of detailed information gathering like Steam, then that is a good thing. Hopefully opting out also means that you can install the damn software and play the game, and not just "not installing it" leaving you without the game.

I don't think it is, it is a third party distribution clause opt out, the inital terms for data collection still apply.

i haven't looked at it so I'm not sure what all it opts out of.  If you look at DAII just as an example it technically collects all your data whether it sends it or not. Many other games have those little configuration/system detail screens to their games these days.  Those are technically data collection even when they do not leave your computer.  They are also a good example of the kind of data that EA would be collecting in fair point.  Now some of them only update when you actually push an update button somewhere in the configuration stuff. Others collect those kind of details automatically from master settings/lists in the OS software.

Despite the rage against it in many of these forums. That data is a good thing. Bioware listens to us very well on story elements and game play and stuff certainly. But that is only part of the equation to making good games. That kind of non-specific data as time goes on actually lets them calculate and create more advanced games with better capability of taking advantage of our hardware when they create something like say DAIII or say ME Universe united or a new franchise or whatever.

I understand where some of the rage and desire for privacy comes from but at the same time Not everything they ask for is some kind of Devil's bargain.  What our systems are capable of plays a part in the forward movement of the industry as well. 

Other EULA that I have seen, have self restricting contract clauses, ie: collects data on a developer's software only, only hardware and software configurations linked to the developers application, administrative controls etc. In many cases it also allows the player to opt out as well. Although I don't like intrusive software on my system things like this I am willing to at least tolerate to an extent, as I have a degree of control and there are limits.

EA's consists of "we collect data we wish form your system, if you don't like it the don't install the game." EA has taken the data collection system of other developers and raised it to an entirely new level. Essentially making it a legitimate trojan horse, I don't particularly want such an application infesting my computer system.

[Reptillius]

Deathwurm wrote...

Reptillius wrote...
I understand where some of the rage and desire for privacy comes from but at the same time Not everything they ask for is some kind of Devil's bargain.  What our systems are capable of plays a part in the forward movement of the industry as well. 

I'm not against the collection of Technical Data for the purpose of improving Gameplay and resolving issues at all. In fact, I'd go a step further than you do and say that there is often a more immediate Benefit rather than just a long-term one...if they collect performance data and it shows that at a certain point in the game under certain configurations there seems to be a glitch I imagine that it leads to a more effective and quicker patching of the problem.

They don't require a lot of the other Data that they are reserving the Right to collect however. It has no bearing on improving their product.

This is exactly what all that hex code when the game crashes and it asks you to submit a bug report is doing. Showing the technical side of things as the crash/bug/garrus break dancing sequence occured so they can see it and potentially replicate it so that they can figure out the best way to fix or neutralize the problem. (when shooting garrus in the head despite him always getting in my LOF isn't an option of course).

As for some of the rest of it. I could speculate but at this point I couldn't make definitive answers on some of it so I'm not going to right now.

[billy the squid]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

cocla wrote...

MaaZeus wrote...

Reptillius wrote...

forum.ea.com/eaforum/posts/list/7489278.page

The afformentioned post in the EA forums themselves.  Be forwarned. many of the responses in it are the same angry responses and individual threats to the company as espoused in this thread and others but there are answers in it.

If it really has an option to opt out of detailed information gathering like Steam, then that is a good thing. Hopefully opting out also means that you can install the damn software and play the game, and not just "not installing it" leaving you without the game.

Nope, never mind.  It just allows you to opt out of 3rd Party sharing of info.  EA can still collect info on your PC software and use

Well that hope is dashed...

And the info they collect isn't personal information.

Nope, you are not personally identifiable, it does not say it is not personal information, read the terms properly.

"The non-personally identifiable information that EA collects"

That's what I meant.

Then you approve of EA collecting personal information of an undisclosed and undefined nature being collected, because it does not personally identify you, unless EA feels it is in its interests to disclose that information?

[anzolino]

@billy the squid, The Big Bad Wolf: IP-adresses are personally identifiable stuff.

[Killjoy Cutter]

billy the squid wrote...

Reptillius wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

MaaZeus wrote...

Reptillius wrote...

forum.ea.com/eaforum/posts/list/7489278.page

The afformentioned post in the EA forums themselves.  Be forwarned. many of the responses in it are the same angry responses and individual threats to the company as espoused in this thread and others but there are answers in it.

If it really has an option to opt out of detailed information gathering like Steam, then that is a good thing. Hopefully opting out also means that you can install the damn software and play the game, and not just "not installing it" leaving you without the game.

I don't think it is, it is a third party distribution clause opt out, the inital terms for data collection still apply.

i haven't looked at it so I'm not sure what all it opts out of.  If you look at DAII just as an example it technically collects all your data whether it sends it or not. Many other games have those little configuration/system detail screens to their games these days.  Those are technically data collection even when they do not leave your computer.  They are also a good example of the kind of data that EA would be collecting in fair point.  Now some of them only update when you actually push an update button somewhere in the configuration stuff. Others collect those kind of details automatically from master settings/lists in the OS software.

Despite the rage against it in many of these forums. That data is a good thing. Bioware listens to us very well on story elements and game play and stuff certainly. But that is only part of the equation to making good games. That kind of non-specific data as time goes on actually lets them calculate and create more advanced games with better capability of taking advantage of our hardware when they create something like say DAIII or say ME Universe united or a new franchise or whatever.

I understand where some of the rage and desire for privacy comes from but at the same time Not everything they ask for is some kind of Devil's bargain.  What our systems are capable of plays a part in the forward movement of the industry as well. 

Other EULA that I have seen, have self restricting contract clauses, ie: collects data on a developer's software only, only hardware and software configurations linked to the developers application, administrative controls etc. In many cases it also allows the player to opt out as well. Although I don't like intrusive software on my system things like this I am willing to at least tolerate to an extent, as I have a degree of control and there are limits.

EA's consists of "we collect data we wish form your system, if you don't like it the don't install the game." EA has taken the data collection system of other developers and raised it to an entirely new level. Essentially making it a legitimate trojan horse, I don't particularly want such an application infesting my computer system.

Same here.  Hell, I don't even buy games that require Steam, no way in hell I'm getting anything that requires this "legal" spyware.

[Reptillius]

billy the squid wrote...

Reptillius wrote...


I don't think it is, it is a third party distribution clause opt out, the inital terms for data collection still apply.

i haven't looked at it so I'm not sure what all it opts out of.  If you look at DAII just as an example it technically collects all your data whether it sends it or not. Many other games have those little configuration/system detail screens to their games these days.  Those are technically data collection even when they do not leave your computer.  They are also a good example of the kind of data that EA would be collecting in fair point.  Now some of them only update when you actually push an update button somewhere in the configuration stuff. Others collect those kind of details automatically from master settings/lists in the OS software.

Despite the rage against it in many of these forums. That data is a good thing. Bioware listens to us very well on story elements and game play and stuff certainly. But that is only part of the equation to making good games. That kind of non-specific data as time goes on actually lets them calculate and create more advanced games with better capability of taking advantage of our hardware when they create something like say DAIII or say ME Universe united or a new franchise or whatever.

I understand where some of the rage and desire for privacy comes from but at the same time Not everything they ask for is some kind of Devil's bargain.  What our systems are capable of plays a part in the forward movement of the industry as well. 

Other EULA that I have seen, have self restricting contract clauses, ie: collects data on a developer's software only, only hardware and software configurations linked to the developers application, administrative controls etc. In many cases it also allows the player to opt out as well. Although I don't like intrusive software on my system things like this I am willing to at least tolerate to an extent, as I have a degree of control and there are limits.

EA's consists of "we collect data we wish form your system, if you don't like it the don't install the game." EA has taken the data collection system of other developers and raised it to an entirely new level. Essentially making it a legitimate trojan horse, I don't particularly want such an application infesting my computer system.

Theirs is just more ambiguously worded...EULA's can be very subtly changed and still have dramatic impact keep in mind.  Also EA despite the anger they caused actually took things a step further as a result. They linked it to a second document. That of their overall privacy policy which does as you state. Have much more limiting and defining wording than a couple of the sections of the EULA itself.

Steams actually worries me a fair bit more than Origin does honestly because it passes the buck and your still potentially signing away your first born with them because while they have an EULA for the downloader. It states that the game that they are being the third party downloader for can have it's own demands that it can place on what information it gets from you reguardless of what Steam itself collects.  So you have the potential of an Origin style ambiguity or percieved threat hidden under the Steam one that many people may ignore because they feel safe with Steam.

I myself though... I'm a die hard old schooler. I love being able to hold the box in my hand and stick that DVD in the drive and listen to it spin up and I know some day I'll have to give that experience up jsut like I had to give up the nostalgic sound of dialup modems. But with this particular one I will work to keep it around for myself as long as I can before giving it up.

Modifié par Reptillius, 29 août 2011 - 04:31 .

[cocla]

Deathwurm wrote...

I'm not against the collection of Technical Data for the purpose of improving Gameplay and resolving issues at all. In fact, I'd go a step further than you do and say that there is often a more immediate Benefit rather than just a long-term one...if they collect performance data and it shows that at a certain point in the game under certain configurations there seems to be a glitch I imagine that it leads to a more effective and quicker patching of the problem.

They don't require a lot of the other Data that they are reserving the Right to collect however. It has no bearing on improving their product.

Same here, if they would just restrict themselves somewhat I would have no problem.  Im ok with collecting system specific data to help game performance and bug problems.  Its the "we can look at every program you have and when/how you use it" that I have a problem with.

Will be getting ME3 for the 360 to continue the series, but after that no more EA games unless they reign themselves in a bit.

[Reptillius]

cocla wrote...

Deathwurm wrote...

I'm not against the collection of Technical Data for the purpose of improving Gameplay and resolving issues at all. In fact, I'd go a step further than you do and say that there is often a more immediate Benefit rather than just a long-term one...if they collect performance data and it shows that at a certain point in the game under certain configurations there seems to be a glitch I imagine that it leads to a more effective and quicker patching of the problem.

They don't require a lot of the other Data that they are reserving the Right to collect however. It has no bearing on improving their product.

Same here, if they would just restrict themselves somewhat I would have no problem.  Im ok with collecting system specific data to help game performance and bug problems.  Its the "we can look at every program you have and when/how you use it" that I have a problem with.

Will be getting ME3 for the 360 to continue the series, but after that no more EA games unless they reign themselves in a bit.

That's not actually how they are doing it from looking at the EULA and the overall EA privacy policy they have now linked that Document to. That was the extreme certain individuals twisted it to to cause outrage.  Scanning your whole computer would be too tedious and unhelpful to EA even in fighting Piracy.   Just look how long it takes virus software to do a half hearted scan let alone a full scan of your system as an example.  All it monitors and scans are the downloader and the games tied to the downloader as well as those little requests the games make about certain capabilities of your computer that doesn't actually identify your computer to anybody. Which technically if it's streamlined it will just let the games do that work and then dip in and take the information from the games records of that.

Modifié par Reptillius, 29 août 2011 - 04:35 .

[cocla]

Reptillius wrote...

That's not actually how they are doing it from looking at the EULA and the overall EA privacy policy they have now linked that Document to. That was the extreme certain individuals twisted it to to cause outrage.  Scanning your whole computer would be too tedious and unhelpful to EA even in fighting Piracy.   Just look how long it takes virus software to do a half hearted scan let alone a full scan of your system as an example.  All it monitors and scans are the downloader and the games tied to the downloader as well as those little requests the games make about certain capabilities of your computer that doesn't actually identify your computer to anybody. Which technically if it's streamlined it will just let the games do that work and then dip in and take the information from the games records of that.

You might be right, but I have also read the updated EULA and the problem is how open it is to interpretation, I take a different meaning than you do from the same document.

They also wouldnt have to scan the whole computer like antivirus, for the information they would want they could search for a few key files and monitor activity.

Companies usually leave things ambigus to give themselves wiggle room for things they want to (or might later choose to) do, otherwise they lock things down tight.  EA has left this ambigus as to what software they will be monitoring and I dont trust that, as other similar EULA's have restricted themselves to the company software and system info.

[Nathander Von Eric]

The wording of the EULA is ambiguous enough that it could be used to enable them to have free reign to scan and collect any and all information stored in your PC along with hardware information.

Do I really think that EA cares what my bank account numbers are or how many shares of Heinz I have?

No.

The fact is they can get it if they want to under that EULA if by installing it we agree and give permission for them to do so.

Giving platitudes of "They won't" from fans or getting assurances of "We won't" from EA just doesn't cut it.

I do not trust EA because of things they have done in the past. Until they prove to me that they deserve trust in the future I won't give them the chance to "Screw up."

[billy the squid]

anzolino wrote...

@billy the squid, The Big Bad Wolf: IP-adresses are personally identifiable stuff.

Contract law is legal nightmare, when it comes to interpretation of terms and conditions, EA's definition of personally identifiable is likely to be different from yours. It actually states it will collect IP Adress, so what EA has actually classed as personally identifiable, which is stated as not being collected is as of yet,  undeterminable by anyone outside EA's higher echelons or their legal department.

[Reptillius]

cocla wrote...

Reptillius wrote...

That's not actually how they are doing it from looking at the EULA and the overall EA privacy policy they have now linked that Document to. That was the extreme certain individuals twisted it to to cause outrage.  Scanning your whole computer would be too tedious and unhelpful to EA even in fighting Piracy.   Just look how long it takes virus software to do a half hearted scan let alone a full scan of your system as an example.  All it monitors and scans are the downloader and the games tied to the downloader as well as those little requests the games make about certain capabilities of your computer that doesn't actually identify your computer to anybody. Which technically if it's streamlined it will just let the games do that work and then dip in and take the information from the games records of that.

You might be right, but I have also read the updated EULA and the problem is how open it is to interpretation, I take a different meaning than you do from the same document.

They also wouldnt have to scan the whole computer like antivirus, for the information they would want they could search for a few key files and monitor activity.

Companies usually leave things ambigus to give themselves wiggle room for things they want to (or might later choose to) do, otherwise they lock things down tight.  EA has left this ambigus as to what software they will be monitoring and I dont trust that, as other similar EULA's have restricted themselves to the company software and system info.

This is true.  And there are a lot of ways to give themselves wiggle room.  many of those more tightly written EULA's also hold a clause that they are allowed to change them solely at their discretion and not what is suitable to the masses.  Even worse is that there are some out there that say they can do it completely without warning where others are nice enough to state that they will only make changes after giving us notice of it.  Granted that notice may be like blizzard does and make us reaggree to it if they change it.

[Reptillius]

billy the squid wrote...

anzolino wrote...

@billy the squid, The Big Bad Wolf: IP-adresses are personally identifiable stuff.

Contract law is legal nightmare, when it comes to interpretation of terms and conditions, EA's definition of personally identifiable is likely to be different from yours. It actually states it will collect IP Adress, so what EA has actually classed as personally identifiable, which is stated as not being collected is as of yet,  undeterminable by anyone outside EA's higher echelons or their legal department.

Actually in this modern age... IP Addresses are not necessarily as individually identifiable by the particular number as you would think.  Many of us with highspeed internet actually share IP addresses with many other people and get new ones as we start up their services or periodically as IP addresses expire.

It can actually take legal reason to take that IP address and go to the companies that provide such service and use it to track down who was using that number at what time.

but yes... contract law is a nightmare...

Modifié par Reptillius, 29 août 2011 - 04:53 .

[Feanor_II]

Things I have learnt through my life:
1) Don't trust corporations, their only ethics and morals are "More profits"
2) In any kind of contract you sign don't let any loose end. And I really believe that Origin's EULA is full of loose ends.

Also I can't trust I what EA may do with the level of permission I'm giving them.

And yeah, I have and e-mail account and I'm registered to certain forums or games, and absolute privacy is not posible (and I doubt it's even desiarable), but this level of intrussion crosses every red.line I can imagine.

[Nathander Von Eric]

Deathwurm wrote...



I would take that with a grain of salt.



Having dealt with EA Support in the past and knowing a bit about Customer
service in general from having worked in the postion, I can tell you that:



1. They are primarily there to get you off the phone or off-line as quickly as
possible, not to assist you.



2. Customer Service at most Companies is the last Department to be
told about anything regarding anything about what is going on at the
Company.

I've called EA support many times over the years. I've gotten a lot of answers
I didn't like from them along with quite a few times being told "I don't
know" or "I don't have that information at this time" but as far as I know I've never been given misleading information purposely
by one of their reps.



I might not trust them as a company but I think they have some pretty good
people working for them in support roles based on my to personal experience
dealing with them.



Until I see an official statement from EA or Bioware I will be operating under
the assumption that things can change though and , yes, I’ll be taking it with
a grain of salt.

Modifié par Nathander Von Eric, 29 août 2011 - 05:02 .

[JGDD]

Reptillius -

Post a link to the newly worded EULA you claim to have seen. If it's the same one I posted a day or two ago they did little more than add soothing words and left in the ambiguous ones that put people on the defensive in the first place.

[Reptillius]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Then you approve of EA collecting personal information of an undisclosed and undefined nature being collected, because it does not personally identify you, unless EA feels it is in its interests to disclose that information?

If it's meant to stop piracy, then so be it.

I also have nothing to hide, so I don't care.

hey... if they want something like my collection of adult entertainment or something.  More power to them. Otherwise they are just going to find a whole lot of video games and an empty spot where my lost music collection needs to be replaced and a lack of those soul stealing social things like face book and myspace... though I do have a couple of IM programs.

[billy the squid]

Reptillius wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Reptillius wrote...


I don't think it is, it is a third party distribution clause opt out, the inital terms for data collection still apply.

i haven't looked at it so I'm not sure what all it opts out of.  If you look at DAII just as an example it technically collects all your data whether it sends it or not. Many other games have those little configuration/system detail screens to their games these days.  Those are technically data collection even when they do not leave your computer.  They are also a good example of the kind of data that EA would be collecting in fair point.  Now some of them only update when you actually push an update button somewhere in the configuration stuff. Others collect those kind of details automatically from master settings/lists in the OS software.

Despite the rage against it in many of these forums. That data is a good thing. Bioware listens to us very well on story elements and game play and stuff certainly. But that is only part of the equation to making good games. That kind of non-specific data as time goes on actually lets them calculate and create more advanced games with better capability of taking advantage of our hardware when they create something like say DAIII or say ME Universe united or a new franchise or whatever.

I understand where some of the rage and desire for privacy comes from but at the same time Not everything they ask for is some kind of Devil's bargain.  What our systems are capable of plays a part in the forward movement of the industry as well. 

Other EULA that I have seen, have self restricting contract clauses, ie: collects data on a developer's software only, only hardware and software configurations linked to the developers application, administrative controls etc. In many cases it also allows the player to opt out as well. Although I don't like intrusive software on my system things like this I am willing to at least tolerate to an extent, as I have a degree of control and there are limits.

EA's consists of "we collect data we wish form your system, if you don't like it the don't install the game." EA has taken the data collection system of other developers and raised it to an entirely new level. Essentially making it a legitimate trojan horse, I don't particularly want such an application infesting my computer system.

Theirs is just more ambiguously worded...EULA's can be very subtly changed and still have dramatic impact keep in mind.  Also EA despite the anger they caused actually took things a step further as a result. They linked it to a second document. That of their overall privacy policy which does as you state. Have much more limiting and defining wording than a couple of the sections of the EULA itself.

Steams actually worries me a fair bit more than Origin does honestly because it passes the buck and your still potentially signing away your first born with them because while they have an EULA for the downloader. It states that the game that they are being the third party downloader for can have it's own demands that it can place on what information it gets from you reguardless of what Steam itself collects.  So you have the potential of an Origin style ambiguity or percieved threat hidden under the Steam one that many people may ignore because they feel safe with Steam.

I myself though... I'm a die hard old schooler. I love being able to hold the box in my hand and stick that DVD in the drive and listen to it spin up and I know some day I'll have to give that experience up jsut like I had to give up the nostalgic sound of dialup modems. But with this particular one I will work to keep it around for myself as long as I can before giving it up.

EA's EULA, being more ambiguously worded than Steams, already loosely worded EULA does not inspire a great deal of confidence.

Taken from EA's privacy policy http://www.ea.com/1/privacy-policy in combination with the Origin's EULA does not make me any more confident, as the privacy policy seems to cover the EULA superceeding the Origins terms 2. Consent to Collection and Use of Data.

S 3 Privacy Policy
"Information collected will vary depending upon the activity and may include your name, email address, phone number, home address, birth date, mobile phone number and credit card information."

Steam's own privacy policy only applies to software and hardware which interacts with its own applications, it is not something I would be particularly happy with, but as I currently don't have steam on my computer I am not going to condemn or condone. The third party developer collection is an issue, but I am currently unsure if steam allows the same lattitude in opting out or simply blocking such data collection. Whilst I am not, at the moment, inclined to trawl through every developer EULA and identify the iffy contractual terms. Yet, they don't appear to be on the same level as EA's current approach.

As to the retail purchase, I to tend to prefer this unfortunately I don't see EA being so easily circumvented, in such a way. I would think Ea will simply require online registration of the game at Origin before installation is permited.

Modifié par billy the squid, 29 août 2011 - 05:19 .

[billy the squid]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Then you approve of EA collecting personal information of an undisclosed and undefined nature being collected, because it does not personally identify you, unless EA feels it is in its interests to disclose that information?

If it's meant to stop piracy, then so be it.

I also have nothing to hide, so I don't care.

Except it doesn't, that is a faulty syllogism.

As a pirated version will be released before, or soon after the date of release and it will be all over the net in no time. Neither does the collection of data stop piracy, unless its purpose is to search for DRM cracks and downloads, in which case why would people who pirate have bought it in the first place.

As with the vast majority of DRM it simply wastes money, pis*es people off, creates coding and authentification problems and doesn't affect those who pirate the game in the slightest.

You also obviously don't have information of a financial nature on your system which technically EA can poke its fingers in according to the wording of the EULA

Modifié par billy the squid, 29 août 2011 - 05:22 .