1310 réponses à ce sujet

[SalsaDMA]

When EA start demanding acceptance of origin for indie games they distribute, I really have no hope for what is essentially an internal production from them.

Wether we like it or not, it seems like EA is hellbent to walk the road of damnation in this one.

[Deathwurm]

Thanks, Inge!

That looks like that is our answer, then.

We can't expect any more from Bioware, Chris handles those kinds of communication between the higher-ups at Bioware and the BSN community. EA has apparently not made a decision on this issue or has not seen fit to inform their own subsidiary.

Modifié par Deathwurm, 30 août 2011 - 06:55 .

[MaaZeus]

Deathwurm wrote...

Thanks, Inge!

That looks like that is our answer, then.

We can't expect any more from Bioware, Chris handles those kinds of communication between the higher-ups at Bioware and the BSN community. EA has apparently not made a decision on this issue or has not seen fit to inform their own subsidiary.

Yeah. I guess they wait and see what happens with BC3 before making any final decisions with other games.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Well, I guess we'll see, then.

I encourage people to contact EA and express their concerns about this, so that they know they're losing pre-orders already and will lose sales going forward because of this.

[anzolino]

Deathwurm wrote...

Thanks, Inge!

That looks like that is our answer, then.

That is the answer I'm a bit afraid of: EA make the decision depending on BF3. In my opinion it means: EA is just testing out how far they can go. They know the wrong issues and wait if somebody notices. Seems just like a hobby of the lawyers or one of that: "If we luckily succeed we can make a lot of money and if not we will find another way..."

So, do we want to make a poll in the meantime and gather votes as much as possible? Or will we sit down and wait?

[Zkyire]

anzolino wrote...

Deathwurm wrote...

Thanks, Inge!

That looks like that is our answer, then.

That is the answer I'm a bit afraid of: EA make the decision depending on BF3. In my opinion it means: EA is just testing out how far they can go. They know the wrong issues and wait if somebody notices. Seems just like a hobby of the lawyers or one of that: "If we luckily succeed we can make a lot of money and if not we will find another way..."

So, do we want to make a poll in the meantime and gather votes as much as possible? Or will we sit down and wait?

So.. pretty much this

Modifié par IEatWhatIPoo, 30 août 2011 - 07:56 .

[Deathwurm]

My suggestion is (and it's only my suggestion) that we pick this up on the EA Forums.

Bioware has been very good about allowing us to keep this Thread open. We've gotten an answer from them and as unsatisfying as that answer is to us, I believe it's a difficult situation for Bioware as well.

It's also unfair to keep this Thread constantly updating with nothing more than posts about our dislike of the EULA because there are a lot of really good Threads about ME3 and the possible directions the story is moving, Characters, NPCs, etc. Again, only my opinion on the way I think we should handle ourselves. Everyone is free to do what they think is best, of course...

There is a Thread already on the EULA issue and the Origin service in the Off-Topic section, so I encourage folks to Post there if they feel the need to continue to use this site to voice their displeasure.

I want to Thank the Mods and folks at Bioware for letting us have such an open discussion for so long without shutting us down!

And remember...Piracy is Stealing!

[anzolino]

Deathwurm wrote...
My suggestion is (and it's only my suggestion) that we pick this up on the EA Forums.

Bioware has been very good about allowing us to keep this Thread open. We've gotten an answer from them and as unsatisfying as that answer is to us, I believe it's a difficult situation for Bioware as well.

It's also unfair to keep this Thread constantly updating with nothing more than posts about our dislike of the EULA because there are a lot of really good Threads about ME3 and the possible directions the story is moving, Characters, NPCs, etc. Again, only my opinion on the way I think we should handle ourselves. Everyone is free to do what they think is best, of course...

There is a Thread already on the EULA issue and the Origin service in the Off-Topic section, so I encourage folks to Post there if they feel the need to continue to use this site to voice their displeasure.

I want to Thank the Mods and folks at Bioware for letting us have such an open discussion for so long without shutting us down!

And remember...Piracy is Stealing!

Ok, that's fine with me.
Yes, from me too: thank the Mods for the quiet support )

[Nathander Von Eric]

Deathwurm wrote...

My suggestion is (and it's only my suggestion) that we pick this up on the EA Forums.

Bioware has been very good about allowing us to keep this Thread open. We've gotten an answer from them and as unsatisfying as that answer is to us, I believe it's a difficult situation for Bioware as well.

It's also unfair to keep this Thread constantly updating with nothing more than posts about our dislike of the EULA because there are a lot of really good Threads about ME3 and the possible directions the story is moving, Characters, NPCs, etc. Again, only my opinion on the way I think we should handle ourselves. Everyone is free to do what they think is best, of course...

There is a Thread already on the EULA issue and the Origin service in the Off-Topic section, so I encourage folks to Post there if they feel the need to continue to use this site to voice their displeasure.

I want to Thank the Mods and folks at Bioware for letting us have such an open discussion for so long without shutting us down!

And remember...Piracy is Stealing!

I agree with the bolded part.

Thanks Bioware.


Good luck on the other EA forums.

I won't waste my time there.

Modifié par Nathander Von Eric, 30 août 2011 - 09:54 .

[JMKnave]

As of today August 31, 2011 at ~13:00 EA_AgentX (EA Forum Admin) posted that the EULA and Origin TOS have been updated.

You can view the EA forum thread here: http://forum.ea.com/...st/7495963.page
You can view the EULA updates here (Origin is at the top): http://www.ea.com/1/product-eulas

I have not read through the entire changes yet but here's a summary:

Section 2 - Collection of Information
- the consent to the collection of data remains intact though EA "thanks" its customers for understanding and go on to state that they can be trusted with your information (no change)
-they will still scan your system for all applications & monitor programs (no change)

Section 3 - App Communication/Privacy
-there are new opt-out features being added to Origin (change)
-Facebook Connect: you can set to private but you must log off Facebook when using Origin
-Friends List: you can set your profile to private but you must do this within each device you use Origin on seperately (mobile, tablet, pc, etc.) (change)

Section 4 - Interaction with Third Party Sites
-this remains the same but EA does not guarantee any interaction you perform through Origin with these sites, I would wager this is for the marketing of DLCs from third parties

Section 5 - System Interaction
-there are three (3) Origin application files that will run in the background of your system
-I would wager these are for DRM purposes. If this is the case then you will not be able to install Origin, install your game, and then uninstall Origin. It would mean that Origin is required to be on your System in order to access your game. This may also mean that Origin may have to be running in the background whenever you play your game.

Arbitration Section
This states that if any disagreement arises, you may pursue it through small claims court or negotiation. If this does not resolve the issue then it will go to arbitration only and that you may not enter into a suit or class action lawsuit against EA relating to advertising, relations between you and EA, changes to any provisions in the agreement, etc.

Keep in mind that there are different agreements for different devices (android, iphone, etc.).

Modifié par JMKnave, 31 août 2011 - 09:03 .

[anzolino]

@JMKnave: We are talking about this EULA since a week. So, follow us to this ^^ forum to discuss the "changes".

[Gatt9]

JMKnave wrote...

As of today August 31, 2011 at ~13:00 EA_AgentX (EA Forum Admin) posted that the EULA and Origin TOS have been updated.

You can view the EA forum thread here: http://forum.ea.com/...st/7495963.page
You can view the EULA updates here (Origin is at the top): http://www.ea.com/1/product-eulas

I have not read through the entire changes yet but here's a summary:

Section 2 - Collection of Information
- the consent to the collection of data remains intact though EA "thanks" its customers for understanding and go on to state that they can be trusted with your information (no change)
-they will still scan your system for all applications & monitor programs (no change)

Invasion of privacy.  The collection of information about my system is unnecessary for EA to perform the service it provides, outside of determining my bandwidth.  It does not need any information about my possessions.  EA does not require information about the other applications I choose to install,  or what I am doing with them.  Massive violation of my privacy,  there is no reason for EA to be monitoring how I use my computer,  and what else I own.

Section 5 - System Interaction
-there are three (3) Origin application files that will run in the background of your system
-I would wager these are for DRM purposes. If this is the case then you will not be able to install Origin, install your game, and then uninstall Origin. It would mean that Origin is required to be on your System in order to access your game. This may also mean that Origin may have to be running in the background whenever you play your game.

Invasion of privacy,  violation of my rights as a purchaser.  EA has no right to install software on my computer to actively monitor my use of the programs.  Requiring a connection,  like Blizzard,  is one thing.  Installing software on my computer is completely unnecessary to achieve the results they want.

Arbitration Section
This states that if any disagreement arises, you may pursue it through small claims court or negotiation. If this does not resolve the issue then it will go to arbitration only and that you may not enter into a suit or class action lawsuit against EA relating to advertising, relations between you and EA, changes to any provisions in the agreement, etc.

Non-binding.  This "Contract" isn't entered into via negotiation,  it's a mandatory agreement forced upon me in order to use the item I purchased,  and I am technically not notified it exists as a usage restriction until after I purchased the software,  and after I am unable to return it for a refund. 

I cannot be held to a contract I wasn't able to negotiate,  and wasn't made aware of until after I purchased the object and made it unreturnable by opening it.  No court in the country,  or probably any country,  will honor it.

Origins is illegal,  it's the equivalent of Sony's Rootkit for which they ended up with huge fines,  and the "Contract is non-binding.

On top of all of this,  by definition,  Origins is officially Spyware at best,  and conceivably could be defined as Malware. 

Modifié par Gatt9, 31 août 2011 - 10:43 .

[billy the squid]

Gatt9 wrote...

JMKnave wrote...

As of today August 31, 2011 at ~13:00 EA_AgentX (EA Forum Admin) posted that the EULA and Origin TOS have been updated.

You can view the EA forum thread here: http://forum.ea.com/...st/7495963.page
You can view the EULA updates here (Origin is at the top): http://www.ea.com/1/product-eulas

I have not read through the entire changes yet but here's a summary:

Section 2 - Collection of Information
- the consent to the collection of data remains intact though EA "thanks" its customers for understanding and go on to state that they can be trusted with your information (no change)
-they will still scan your system for all applications & monitor programs (no change)

Invasion of privacy.  The collection of information about my system is unnecessary for EA to perform the service it provides, outside of determining my bandwidth.  It does not need any information about my possessions.  EA does not require information about the other applications I choose to install,  or what I am doing with them.  Massive violation of my privacy,  there is no reason for EA to be monitoring how I use my computer,  and what else I own.

Section 5 - System Interaction
-there are three (3) Origin application files that will run in the background of your system
-I would wager these are for DRM purposes. If this is the case then you will not be able to install Origin, install your game, and then uninstall Origin. It would mean that Origin is required to be on your System in order to access your game. This may also mean that Origin may have to be running in the background whenever you play your game.

Invasion of privacy,  violation of my rights as a purchaser.  EA has no right to install software on my computer to actively monitor my use of the programs.  Requiring a connection,  like Blizzard,  is one thing.  Installing software on my computer is completely unnecessary to achieve the results they want.

Arbitration Section
This states that if any disagreement arises, you may pursue it through small claims court or negotiation. If this does not resolve the issue then it will go to arbitration only and that you may not enter into a suit or class action lawsuit against EA relating to advertising, relations between you and EA, changes to any provisions in the agreement, etc.

Non-binding.  This "Contract" isn't entered into via negotiation,  it's a mandatory agreement forced upon me in order to use the item I purchased,  and I am technically not notified it exists as a usage restriction until after I purchased the software,  and after I am unable to return it for a refund. 

I cannot be held to a contract I wasn't able to negotiate,  and wasn't made aware of until after I purchased the object and made it unreturnable by opening it.  No court in the country,  or probably any country,  will honor it.

Origins is illegal,  it's the equivalent of Sony's Rootkit for which they ended up with huge fines,  and the "Contract is non-binding.

On top of all of this,  by definition,  Origins is officially Spyware at best,  and conceivably could be defined as Malware. 

It is a contract of adhesion, it is legal. I hate them, but it is rather standard and no legal precedent has been set against it.

Unfortunately the court proceedings take a wider scope in issues like this, there are cases on this, but I'm not going to go rumaging through my law notes at the moment. Notification exists in the privacy policy and origins system itself, EA only has to make a reasonable effort in making people aware of the existence of the policy, before purchase, they do not have to state explicitly that it may result in usage restrictions, as it is refered to in the terms even if not explicitly.

As said above, yes courts will honour it as it is a contract of adhesion and so long as attention is drawn to the existence of the policies, you're negotiation of the contract is not a prerequisite for validity, only you're acceptance. You could try arguing unfair contract terms, but I don't think it would get far.

Origins unfortunately is not illegal if one accepts the EULA, one waives the inherent privicy rights provided by legislation if done so. As said above the contract is binding, courts, at least in the UK take a dim view in entering into a contract knowing the terms are non binding only to break it.

As to the Spyware system, this I agree with, I hate it.

If anyhting comes of this it will be on whether the data collection clause is excessive for the reasonable purpose of collecting data to improve the services provided. EA's legal department are not stupid, I don't think they are going to be tripped up so easily on simple matters of contract law as explained

Modifié par billy the squid, 01 septembre 2011 - 01:12 .

[JMKnave]

anzolino wrote...

@JMKnave: We are talking about this EULA since a week. So, follow us to this ^^ forum to discuss the "changes".

Thanks, I appreciate that. I don't follow the EA forums at all and only recently checked for their responses. I was aware of the threads on the EA forums beforehand but I haven't seen much of a discussion taking place there.

There are 20+ different threads and only the one with the poll regarding the EULA has made it to page 4. The rest seem to be original posts from a single user with a sprinkling of whine and flame here and there from other users replying.

[Gatt9]

billy the squid wrote...

Gatt9 wrote...

JMKnave wrote...

As of today August 31, 2011 at ~13:00 EA_AgentX (EA Forum Admin) posted that the EULA and Origin TOS have been updated.

You can view the EA forum thread here: http://forum.ea.com/...st/7495963.page
You can view the EULA updates here (Origin is at the top): http://www.ea.com/1/product-eulas

I have not read through the entire changes yet but here's a summary:

Section 2 - Collection of Information
- the consent to the collection of data remains intact though EA "thanks" its customers for understanding and go on to state that they can be trusted with your information (no change)
-they will still scan your system for all applications & monitor programs (no change)

Invasion of privacy.  The collection of information about my system is unnecessary for EA to perform the service it provides, outside of determining my bandwidth.  It does not need any information about my possessions.  EA does not require information about the other applications I choose to install,  or what I am doing with them.  Massive violation of my privacy,  there is no reason for EA to be monitoring how I use my computer,  and what else I own.

Section 5 - System Interaction
-there are three (3) Origin application files that will run in the background of your system
-I would wager these are for DRM purposes. If this is the case then you will not be able to install Origin, install your game, and then uninstall Origin. It would mean that Origin is required to be on your System in order to access your game. This may also mean that Origin may have to be running in the background whenever you play your game.

Invasion of privacy,  violation of my rights as a purchaser.  EA has no right to install software on my computer to actively monitor my use of the programs.  Requiring a connection,  like Blizzard,  is one thing.  Installing software on my computer is completely unnecessary to achieve the results they want.

Arbitration Section
This states that if any disagreement arises, you may pursue it through small claims court or negotiation. If this does not resolve the issue then it will go to arbitration only and that you may not enter into a suit or class action lawsuit against EA relating to advertising, relations between you and EA, changes to any provisions in the agreement, etc.

Non-binding.  This "Contract" isn't entered into via negotiation,  it's a mandatory agreement forced upon me in order to use the item I purchased,  and I am technically not notified it exists as a usage restriction until after I purchased the software,  and after I am unable to return it for a refund. 

I cannot be held to a contract I wasn't able to negotiate,  and wasn't made aware of until after I purchased the object and made it unreturnable by opening it.  No court in the country,  or probably any country,  will honor it.

Origins is illegal,  it's the equivalent of Sony's Rootkit for which they ended up with huge fines,  and the "Contract is non-binding.

On top of all of this,  by definition,  Origins is officially Spyware at best,  and conceivably could be defined as Malware. 

It is a contract of adhesion, it is legal. I hate them, but it is rather standard and no legal precedent has been set against it.

Unfortunately the court proceedings take a wider scope in issues like this, there are cases on this, but I'm not going to go rumaging through my law notes at the moment. Notification exists in the privacy policy and origins system itself, EA only has to make a reasonable effort in making people aware of the existence of the policy, before purchase, they do not have to state explicitly that it may result in usage restrictions, as it is refered to in the terms even if not explicitly.

As said above, yes courts will honour it as it is a contract of adhesion and so long as attention is drawn to the existence of the policies, you're negotiation of the contract is not a prerequisite for validity, only you're acceptance. You could try arguing unfair contract terms, but I don't think it would get far.

Origins unfortunately is not illegal if one accepts the EULA, one waives the inherent privicy rights provided by legislation if done so. As said above the contract is binding, courts, at least in the UK take a dim view in entering into a contract knowing the terms are non binding only to break it.

As to the Spyware system, this I agree with, I hate it.

If anyhting comes of this it will be on whether the data collection clause is excessive for the reasonable purpose of collecting data to improve the services provided. EA's legal department are not stupid, I don't think they are going to be tripped up so easily on simple matters of contract law as explained

I disagree.  The issue at hand is "reasonable notification",  posting some stuff on their website won't constitute that,  it assumes that people would go to the website and investigate the terms of condition prior to purchasing,  which is an unreasonable assumption as there's no reason to expect that a person would do so prior to purchasing a game in a store.

There's no precedent in the history of media which would compel customers to research the EULA prior to purchasing.  Buying a game has never required you to accept invasive software instalations,  constant monitoring,  and on-site DRM.  So there's no reason for people to go and check for it prior to purchase.

So reasonably,  the first time a person can be expected to learn of the "Terms and conditions" is after the packaging has been opened,  voiding the return.

Further,  no EULA has ever required you to accept such invasive procedures before,  nor has any ever required you to wave your right to litigation.  It's highly unlikely that the EULA will state "Our terms and conditions have changed",  so one could even argue that there's no reason to suddenly read the EULA now,  as it's reasonable to expect it to be the same as yesterday,  or the last 30 years.

Then there's the problem of expressly stating the purpose of the programs being installed,  it's highly unlikely the EULA clearly expresses their purpose,  which isn't a blank check to invade people's privacy and monitor all of their actions.

This becomes even more important when one considers,  several software companies have been punished in the past for exactly this behavior.  I believe Microsoft was,  another game maker was,  I can't remember exactly who.  It was in the late 90's,  early 00's.

Finally,  I would contend that the EULA itself may actually be illegal,  especially the assertion that you "Lease the software".  It's only been tested in regards to copyright violations,  it's never been tested on the grounds of "Lease" as far as consumers go.  It's always been a non-issue because they couldn't take the game away from you.  It's only just recently with "Phone home" requirements of DRM that it's become possible that this may be challenged.  It's *very* likely it will lose,  given the rights afforded to people by the "Fair use" laws. 

Finally,  I think you're *seriously* overestimating EA's lawyers.  EA's been in trouble a number of times.  Unpaid mandatory overtime with hourly employees,  not compensating workers in Ultima Online,  the original programmer for Madden is sueing EA at present,  there's a class action suit against EA in regards to the NFL monopoly,  and I think there's been others.

[Monochrome Wench]

Did anyone even read the terms when they installed Mass Effect 2 or signed up for Cerberus Network access???

From ME2's EULA

3. Consent to Use of Data. When you play this game offline, EA and its affiliates may collect and store non-personally identifiable data including your Internet Protocol Address as well as game play and software usage statistics. If and when you access online features and/or services, this data may be transmitted to EA. EA may use this information to improve our products and services and may share anonymous aggregate data with third parties. 
 
To facilitate Technical Protection Measures, the provision of software updates, any dynamically served content, product support and other services to you, including online play, you agree that EA and its affiliates may collect, use, store and transmit technical and related information that identifies your computer (including an Internet Protocol Address and hardware identification), operating system and application software and peripheral hardware. EA and its affiliates may also share anonymous aggregate data with our third party service providers. 
 
Other types of data collected as well as how data is collected, used, stored and transmitted is set forth in EA’s Privacy Policy located at http://privacy.ea.com. To the extent that anything in this section conflicts with the terms of EA’s Privacy Policy, the terms of the Privacy Policy shall control.
 
4. Consent to Public Display of Data. If you participate in online services, such as online play or the downloading and uploading of content, EA and its affiliates may also collect, use, store, transmit and publicly display statistical data regarding game play (including scores, rankings and achievements), or identify content that is created and shared by you with other players. Data that personally identifies you is collected, used, stored and transmitted in accordance with EA’s Privacy Policy located at www.ea.com. 

OMG! Its like the same as Origin!

Modifié par Monochrome Wench, 01 septembre 2011 - 07:12 .

[Aeowyn]

Monochrome Wench wrote...

Did anyone even read the terms when they installed Mass Effect 2 or signed up for Cerberus Network access???

From ME2's EULA

3. Consent to Use of Data. When you play this game offline, EA and its affiliates may collect and store non-personally identifiable data including your Internet Protocol Address as well as game play and software usage statistics. If and when you access online features and/or services, this data may be transmitted to EA. EA may use this information to improve our products and services and may share anonymous aggregate data with third parties. 
 
To facilitate Technical Protection Measures, the provision of software updates, any dynamically served content, product support and other services to you, including online play, you agree that EA and its affiliates may collect, use, store and transmit technical and related information that identifies your computer (including an Internet Protocol Address and hardware identification), operating system and application software and peripheral hardware. EA and its affiliates may also share anonymous aggregate data with our third party service providers. 
 
Other types of data collected as well as how data is collected, used, stored and transmitted is set forth in EA’s Privacy Policy located at http://privacy.ea.com. To the extent that anything in this section conflicts with the terms of EA’s Privacy Policy, the terms of the Privacy Policy shall control.
 
4. Consent to Public Display of Data. If you participate in online services, such as online play or the downloading and uploading of content, EA and its affiliates may also collect, use, store, transmit and publicly display statistical data regarding game play (including scores, rankings and achievements), or identify content that is created and shared by you with other players. Data that personally identifies you is collected, used, stored and transmitted in accordance with EA’s Privacy Policy located at www.ea.com. 

OMG! Its like the same as Origin!

Except it's not



How about you read properly before you come with "OMG it's like the same as Origin!".

[corrin1984]

True, not exactly the same... but basically amounts to the same thing. Thing is, EA's come out and said they won't be sending personal info to third parties... but it's going to be like Amazon or Ebay. When you play a lot of ME2 or 3... you're going to see a lot more advertisements on Origin's home page that are RPGs. If you play a lot of Need for Speed, rest assured you're probably going to see adverts for racing games. There is a lot of software out there, steam, origin, facebook... that collects information from your computer. If you don't feel comfortable with it... don't install it. But, most of this stuff is standard now a days, and in some form or another, the EULA's from EA or Valve or Blizzard all allow them to do the same stuff. This is just big because someone wrote an article about it.

[Killjoy Cutter]

If it were up to me, the law would consider such data gathering software as spyware, and treat the companies that publish it as writing malicious software.

Sony's rootkit DRM saga should have ended with people in jail for hacking.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 01 septembre 2011 - 01:11 .

[Eradyn]

I came back to this thread hoping for word on this situation, if anyone had an answer, as my purchase of ME3 does hinge on EA's decision on whether the Origin software will be mandatory or not to download, install, or play the game. I guess the best we have, so far, is Chris Priestly's "I don't know yet." I hope to hear a definitive answer relatively soon. I am not opposed to boycotting popular games from well-known publishers. Hell, I haven't touched a Blizzard game in years...sadly. I would hate to add Bioware/EA to that list, but I have no problem doing that if EA goes the strong-arm route against its customers.

I know it's not a huge issue for some others, and I know BW/EA won't miss my purchase...I wish such individuals luck in their endeavors. For me, however, it's important enough that I would cancel my CE preorder without reservation. While I intend to play TOR, even that will only be so long as EA never requires the download or installation of Origin. I would only accept a vastly modified Origin service and EULA, with modifications to such a degree that the service was incapable of what it is currently designed to do and a EULA that specifically restricts Origin to mining only data directly pertaining to its own operation.

I hope EA reacts to this outcry with wisdom and prudence, and reconsiders how they will utilize Origin as well as how mandatory they will make the service.

[J-Sheridan]

Collectors Edition Pre-Order cancelled

Either Mass Effect 3 is stand alone or I dont buy it until Origin is proven NOT to be glorified spyware or a crack comes out nullifying this feature

I'll be Notfying consumers as well when they come into the shop asking about ME3.