951 réponses à ce sujet

[Thompson family]

At the risk of sounding deliberately provocative, I ask because there's been so many posts about how Paragons don't get punished enough for making unrealistic choices.

What unrealistic choices, even without hindsight?

Letting Balak the terrorist go in ME1? Before facing that decision, Shep shut down the thursters on the asteroid, saving the people on the target planet. In the process of that, Shep & Co. killed almost every Batarian under Balak's command.

So Shep's supposed to let a half-dozen civilians die just to make a few more Batarian corpses? Balak can cause more trouble? Imagine Balak opening up recruiting for his next mission:

1st Batarian: Hey, I hear Balak's hiring.
2nd Batarian: Ugh. No thanks. Last mission he led was supposed to grab a few slaves and make a profit. Instead he went nuts and tried to slam an asteriod into a planet. Practically everybody with him got killed and the survivors had nothing to show for it -- and he made a personal enemy of the universe's most famous bad*** too. Balak's just trouble.

EDITED WARNING ADDED: This thread went off track and went in a "BW
unfair to Renegades?" debate by a relatively few post authors.

Modifié par Thompson family, 28 août 2011 - 07:12 .

[lolspawn]

everyone has there own opinion.

and i kill the terrorist every time    because hes just going to do it again. 

Modifié par lolspawn, 24 août 2011 - 02:44 .

[Rykn]

Thompson family wrote...

1st Batarian: Hey, I hear Balak's hiring.
2nd Batarian: Ugh. No thanks. Last mission he led was supposed to grab a few slaves and make a profit. Instead he went nuts and tried to slam an asteriod into a planet. Practically everybody with him got killed and the survivors had nothing to show for it -- and he made a personal enemy of the universe's most famous bad*** too. Balak's just trouble.

Young Batarian in the corner: Pissed off the universe's most famous bad*** eh? Sounds like my kinda guy! Where do I sign up?

Moral of the story: There is never a shortage of stupid people. That and the universe likes them young.

*Some EDITs for clarity just in case*

Modifié par Rykn, 24 août 2011 - 02:46 .

[Thompson family]

Rykn wrote...

Young Batarian in the corner: Universe's most famous bad*** eh? Sounds like my kinda guy! Where do I sign up?

Moral of the story: There is never a shortage of stupid people. That and the universe likes them young.

This is wisdom.

[SPACE_GREASER]

it was realistic the time I punched a reporter

[Luigitornado]

Terrorists don't care if they are going to die -- it's not a deterrent.

Modifié par Luigitornado, 24 août 2011 - 02:48 .

[Thompson family]

neo7732 wrote...

it was realistic the time I punched a reporter

That might be tough to argue with.

[Nyreen]

When I headbutted a Krogan. Without a helmet.

[Zu Long]

Luigitornado wrote...

Terrorists don't care if they are going to die -- it's not a deterrent.

Given that half his squad abandons him when you point out all he's doing is getting them killed, it might be more of a deterrent than you think.

But when you get down to it, the REAL realistic option in that scenario is for Shepard to let the terrorists go to save the hostages, and then have Joker and the Normandy blow them out of space when they launch their shuttle. I was really surprised this wasn't an option. It seemed pretty obvious to me that when my giant warship is orbiting the asteroid they are going to lift off of, I can afford to let them think they are getting away.

Modifié par Zu Long, 24 août 2011 - 03:10 .

[Boiny Bunny]

Honestly, I don't think you've chosen a good example to kick off this thread.

Balak is a known terrorist who almost killed millions of people and started an inter-galactic war, which could have cost millions more lives.

If it didn't so happen that the Normandy was just by CHANCE travelling through that system within the 3 hour window that BDtS occurred, it would have happened. It was pure, unbelievable, dumb luck, that Shepard was even there at all, let alone managed to stop it.

Let me try and translate this situation into real life.

Suppose just after September 11, the US government had an opportunity to take out Osama Bin Laden - however, in a similar vein to Balak, when the 'extraction team' got there, Osama had 5 US hostages. The team could let him escape and save the 5 hostages, or kill him on the spot. What should they do?

Let him escape? Save the 5 hostages? Then invade Afghanistan as per real history, resulting in massive numbers of deaths, and finally killing Osama 10 years later?

True - there is no guarantee that Balak will strike again, but he is an exceptionally dangerous terrorist who was extremely close to succeeding.

[Thompson family]

Celestina wrote...
When I headbutted a Krogan. Without a helmet.

Same thing, no helmet -- with a FemShep.

Electrocuting the gunship mechanic.

Sniper shooting the mech in the Garrus recruitment mission.

EDITED P.S.

As a Femshep, I enjoy her renegade responses to leering sexist comments. Especially in ME1, when she tells Harkin: "Another comment like that and you'll be picking your teeth up off the floor."

Modifié par Thompson family, 24 août 2011 - 05:22 .

[TheZyzyva]

I think most major decisions have pros and cons to them. The only ones I can think of that don't really make sense is when you're offered to do anything for Cerberus. Like hand over Veetor or the CB. Minor things though it seems like the renegade choice is just "act like a d***" though. I can never play full 'gade cause of that. Why would anyone want to be on Sheps crew if all he did was act like a d-bag towards all of them?

[Zu Long]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Honestly, I don't think you've chosen a good example to kick off this thread.

Balak is a known terrorist who almost killed millions of people and started an inter-galactic war, which could have cost millions more lives.

If it didn't so happen that the Normandy was just by CHANCE travelling through that system within the 3 hour window that BDtS occurred, it would have happened. It was pure, unbelievable, dumb luck, that Shepard was even there at all, let alone managed to stop it.

Let me try and translate this situation into real life.

Suppose just after September 11, the US government had an opportunity to take out Osama Bin Laden - however, in a similar vein to Balak, when the 'extraction team' got there, Osama had 5 US hostages. The team could let him escape and save the 5 hostages, or kill him on the spot. What should they do?

Let him escape? Save the 5 hostages? Then invade Afghanistan as per real history, resulting in massive numbers of deaths, and finally killing Osama 10 years later?

True - there is no guarantee that Balak will strike again, but he is an exceptionally dangerous terrorist who was extremely close to succeeding.

What if they just take out bin Laden and all of his terrorist buddies from an improbably long range like the somali pirates, or, as per my above arguement, pretend to let Bin Laden go and then have a waiting predator drone take out his escape vehicle from beyond visible range?

Modifié par Zu Long, 24 août 2011 - 03:05 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

EDIT:'d

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 24 août 2011 - 03:06 .

[JediMaster_Murph]

Zu Long wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Honestly, I don't think you've chosen a good example to kick off this thread.

Balak is a known terrorist who almost killed millions of people and started an inter-galactic war, which could have cost millions more lives.

If it didn't so happen that the Normandy was just by CHANCE travelling through that system within the 3 hour window that BDtS occurred, it would have happened. It was pure, unbelievable, dumb luck, that Shepard was even there at all, let alone managed to stop it.

Let me try and translate this situation into real life.

Suppose just after September 11, the US government had an opportunity to take out Osama Bin Laden - however, in a similar vein to Balak, when the 'extraction team' got there, Osama had 5 US hostages. The team could let him escape and save the 5 hostages, or kill him on the spot. What should they do?

Let him escape? Save the 5 hostages? Then invade Afghanistan as per real history, resulting in massive numbers of deaths, and finally killing Osama 10 years later?

True - there is no guarantee that Balak will strike again, but he is an exceptionally dangerous terrorist who was extremely close to succeeding.

What if they just take out bin Laden and all of his terrorist buddies from an improbably long range like the somali pirates, or, as per my above arguement, pretend to let Bin Laden go and then have a waiting pretador drone take out his escape vehicle from beyond visible range?

i think your lookin to deep into this one

[Zu Long]

JediMaster_Murph wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Honestly, I don't think you've chosen a good example to kick off this thread.

Balak is a known terrorist who almost killed millions of people and started an inter-galactic war, which could have cost millions more lives.

If it didn't so happen that the Normandy was just by CHANCE travelling through that system within the 3 hour window that BDtS occurred, it would have happened. It was pure, unbelievable, dumb luck, that Shepard was even there at all, let alone managed to stop it.

Let me try and translate this situation into real life.

Suppose just after September 11, the US government had an opportunity to take out Osama Bin Laden - however, in a similar vein to Balak, when the 'extraction team' got there, Osama had 5 US hostages. The team could let him escape and save the 5 hostages, or kill him on the spot. What should they do?

Let him escape? Save the 5 hostages? Then invade Afghanistan as per real history, resulting in massive numbers of deaths, and finally killing Osama 10 years later?

True - there is no guarantee that Balak will strike again, but he is an exceptionally dangerous terrorist who was extremely close to succeeding.

What if they just take out bin Laden and all of his terrorist buddies from an improbably long range like the somali pirates, or, as per my above arguement, pretend to let Bin Laden go and then have a waiting pretador drone take out his escape vehicle from beyond visible range?

i think your lookin to deep into this one

I would argue that the only reason we're having this argument is that Bioware chose to ignore the fact that your warship could have easily blown Balak away while he was attempting to escape. I appreciate that they wanted a no best outcome choice, but this one could have been better designed. The later grey or grey choices, like the geth choice, and to a certain extent the Collector Base, were far more interesting because they had no obvious third option.

[Boiny Bunny]

Zu Long wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Honestly, I don't think you've chosen a good example to kick off this thread.

Balak is a known terrorist who almost killed millions of people and started an inter-galactic war, which could have cost millions more lives.

If it didn't so happen that the Normandy was just by CHANCE travelling through that system within the 3 hour window that BDtS occurred, it would have happened. It was pure, unbelievable, dumb luck, that Shepard was even there at all, let alone managed to stop it.

Let me try and translate this situation into real life.

Suppose just after September 11, the US government had an opportunity to take out Osama Bin Laden - however, in a similar vein to Balak, when the 'extraction team' got there, Osama had 5 US hostages. The team could let him escape and save the 5 hostages, or kill him on the spot. What should they do?

Let him escape? Save the 5 hostages? Then invade Afghanistan as per real history, resulting in massive numbers of deaths, and finally killing Osama 10 years later?

True - there is no guarantee that Balak will strike again, but he is an exceptionally dangerous terrorist who was extremely close to succeeding.

What if they just take out bin Laden and all of his terrorist buddies from an improbably long range like the somali pirates, or, as per my above arguement, pretend to let Bin Laden go and then have a waiting predator drone take out his escape vehicle from beyond visible range?

All possibilities - however, these options were not available when making the Balak decision, thus not available in my Bin Laden example.  If the US government thought they could save the hostages AND get Bin Laden, they would do it, no doubt (well, almost no doubt).

However, in BDtS, you are presented with a binary decision.  There are no middle options, no way to save the hostages and get Balak.  If you save the hostages, Balak gets away happily, and the galaxy may (or may not) lose millions of lives in the future as a result.

[Ninjapino]

Actually, I was just talking about this in another thread. I actually kept the collector's base and it actually made sense to me. I had to think about it for a while. I mostly play a paragon character, but I choose to keep it and give it to Cerberus for the simple fact that I know the reapers are coming and I want SOMEBODY to use it to our advantage even though I know full well that it will come back to bite me. I'll cross that bridge when I come to it, I figure.

[SgtPepper667]

Sometimes you have to sacrifice a few people to save a thousand.

We don't know if Balak would have learned his lesson (most likely not), or if he would have ignored Shepard's words and continued being a terrorist. It was unfortunate that the hostages had to die, but it was necessary. By killing Balak, Shepard saved more lives than he/she gave up.

Letting Balak go is unrealistic, because you're letting someone who was very willing to destroy a whole planet go. Who's stopping him from doing it again?

Modifié par SgtPepper667, 24 août 2011 - 03:10 .

[Volus Warlord]

Realistic Renegade decisions:

1.) Keeping the Base.
2.) Telling Kal Raegar to fight rather than hide. You need all the guns you can get.
3.) Beating Kelham to get what you need before his lawyer shows up or playing the Spectre card.
4.) Screaming at Ash to tell her to get the hell off the ship that is getting ripped to pieces rather than trying to explain your reasoning. It's faster when time is vital.
5.) Selling Pitne For's manifest back to him. Much more useful money.
6.) Not letting Miranda speak to Orianna and letting her kill Niket. Risks avoided.
7.) Shooting Kolyat's hostage. Fastest and simplest way to resolve a hostage situation.
8.) Giving the Quarians evidence against Tali's father (if you're scores aren't high enough). The dead are the dead.
I'm sure I could think of many, many more.

[Zu Long]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Zu Long wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Honestly, I don't think you've chosen a good example to kick off this thread.

Balak is a known terrorist who almost killed millions of people and started an inter-galactic war, which could have cost millions more lives.

If it didn't so happen that the Normandy was just by CHANCE travelling through that system within the 3 hour window that BDtS occurred, it would have happened. It was pure, unbelievable, dumb luck, that Shepard was even there at all, let alone managed to stop it.

Let me try and translate this situation into real life.

Suppose just after September 11, the US government had an opportunity to take out Osama Bin Laden - however, in a similar vein to Balak, when the 'extraction team' got there, Osama had 5 US hostages. The team could let him escape and save the 5 hostages, or kill him on the spot. What should they do?

Let him escape? Save the 5 hostages? Then invade Afghanistan as per real history, resulting in massive numbers of deaths, and finally killing Osama 10 years later?

True - there is no guarantee that Balak will strike again, but he is an exceptionally dangerous terrorist who was extremely close to succeeding.

What if they just take out bin Laden and all of his terrorist buddies from an improbably long range like the somali pirates, or, as per my above arguement, pretend to let Bin Laden go and then have a waiting predator drone take out his escape vehicle from beyond visible range?

All possibilities - however, these options were not available when making the Balak decision, thus not available in my Bin Laden example.  If the US government thought they could save the hostages AND get Bin Laden, they would do it, no doubt (well, almost no doubt).

However, in BDtS, you are presented with a binary decision.  There are no middle options, no way to save the hostages and get Balak.  If you save the hostages, Balak gets away happily, and the galaxy may (or may not) lose millions of lives in the future as a result.

Again, I argue that in BDtS, it's a false choice based on forcing your character into a no-win scenario. There is a clear winning option, but they choose not to allow you to take it.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Thompson family wrote...

When was the RENEGADE choice ever the realistic one?

From the top of my head: Bring Down the Sky, the Rachni Queen, Dr. Saleon, the Council, the Genophage, the refinery on Zorya, Keiji's graybox, Joram Talid, Sidonis, Ronald Taylor, the Patriarch, Aresh, Oriana and publically unveiling Rael'Zorah's crime.

And possibly the pro-Cerberus choices as well, depending on your perspective.

[Rahmiel]

wait wait wait.. realistic renegade decisions includes shooting kolyat's hostage?! So you're saying that in real life, hostages get shot by the authorities all the time.. or just that there are no renegade hostage negotiators in real life?

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Memmahkth wrote...

wait wait wait.. realistic renegade decisions includes shooting kolyat's hostage?! So you're saying that in real life, hostages get shot by the authorities all the time.. or just that there are no renegade hostage negotiators in real life?

No what they are saying is trying to save all parties involved isn't realistic.

[Zu Long]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

When was the RENEGADE choice ever the realistic one?

From the top of my head: Bring Down the Sky, the Rachni Queen, Dr. Saleon, the Council, the Genophage, the refinery on Zorya, Keiji's graybox, Joram Talid, Sidonis, Ronald Taylor, the Patriarch, Aresh, Oriana and publically unveiling Rael'Zorah's crime.

And possibly the pro-Cerberus choices as well, depending on your perspective.

1. I've already discussed that the true realistic option is denied you.
2. It's realistic to murder someone for crimes they had no part in?
3. It's realistic to just shoot a criminal rather than arrest them?
4. The realistic option is to destroy the geth fleet while the arms are still closed and the enemy forces are separated, rather than risk the defeat of your fleet to save a few seconds.
5. It's realistic to allow a race to die out rather than believe they can change?
6. The mission was to RESCUE THE WORKERS. Letting them die so Zaeed gets his revenge is not realistic.
7. Destroying the greybox so that...what? Kasumi isn't in danger? She's going on a suicide mission, let her keep her memories, she'll probably die anyway.
8. Because everyone knows shooting the hostage is how real police handle things.
9. Because letting your friend murder someone in cold blood is realistic.
10. Again, what is unrealistic about arresting people?
11. It's unrealistic for Shepard to lay the smack down on a couple would be assassins? What?
12. You're going to nuke the base, why kill him?
13. I don't see how keeping the knowledge of her sister secret is better. It's not like her dad is just going to stop looking for her either way.
14. Betraying your friend's wishes is realistic?

Off the top of my head, it seems like there isn't a realistic choice in there.