951 réponses à ce sujet

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

I agree with everything you listed Lotion except for the Base. My reason isn't if the Base is too dangerous to use but rather who is using it. Cerberus has a long long history of there cells either going 'rogue', everyone dying, or worst their objectives getting out of control and threatening others. Most notably Overlord which almost destroyed the galaxy. I don't know about you but when an orginization almost destroys the galaxy I'm not about to then give them advanced/dangerous technology without having any kind of oversight into what they're doing with it.

It's better to get rid of it than give it to an orginization that excels at failure.

Cerberus doesn't excell at faliure, we've been over that already.

And it's in Cerberus own interest to fight agaisnt the repaers and for humanity - something that Cerberus has been doing consistently. There's absolutely NO reason to think Cerberus would turn agasint humanity.
And Overlord didn't destroy the galaxy - all that "technologcla apocalypse" is overblown. Not to mention that repaers are gonan come and f**** you up anyway. ANY risk is worth taking.

I said this before, but it's worth repeating:
tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GodzillaThreshold

I refuse to give the base to Cerberus not because I thought Cerberus would turn against me but because they would most likely involentarily do more harm with that technology than good. They could have done a dozen things with that base that would end up hurting the galaxy more than it would end up helping it. During my decision I figured there'd be a 60/40 split 60% Cerberus would be allies and 40% they'd be our enemies. Even though I believed that Cerberus would be a reluctant ally with the rest of the galaxy I still believe that they would do more harm to the galaxy than help.

I agree that we should be willing to take risks but not risks that at least to me seem far more likely to happen than any benefits that would come from it. You also have to remember that there's political repercutions that would also come from giving the base to Cerberus. If and most likely when the rest of the galaxy learn you gave advanced tech to an orginization people see as terrorists that will hurt your ability to convince them to follow you.

To me the downsides were far greater than the upsides.

Modifié par ISpeakTheTruth, 24 août 2011 - 06:38 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

And that is downright illogical.

No one will care about Cerberus when the reapers come.
And where do you get the idea that the base will not help, but will end up hurting? Based on what?
Cerberus has a track record of getting results (even if it ends up killing their researchers), and results is what we're after.

Reapers are so far ahead of us, that we NEED some edge.
The CB is almsot certanly potentially more useful than the Rachnii, Krogan and Geth combined.
Reapres swat ships from the sky like nothing. Ground troops are of little use agaisnt them.

You need technology and information more than anything else.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Based on Cerberus needing Shepard needing to clean up their messes most of ME2,it may be illogical to you but that doesn't mean it is illogical, I know you like to think your logic is infallible,but to many people the risk of having to clean up after Cerberus AGAIN,makes it a no-brainer.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 24 août 2011 - 07:02 .

[VaultingFrog]

What proof do you have that the CB would benefit the galaxy if we saved it? More importantly it would take years and probably more like decades before anything useful would be gained from that base.

That and oh yeah the Reapers could have left some dormant tech that would allow them to take command of the base at any time and indoctrinate anybody on it or near it.

There are too many unknowns to make it a worth while thing to save. Too many if's with out an assured payoff that would be worth those risks.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

VaultingFrog wrote...

What proof do you have that the CB would benefit the galaxy if we saved it? More importantly it would take years and probably more like decades before anything useful would be gained from that base.

That and oh yeah the Reapers could have left some dormant tech that would allow them to take command of the base at any time and indoctrinate anybody on it or near it.

There are too many unknowns to make it a worth while thing to save. Too many if's with out an assured payoff that would be worth those risks.

For all we know they could have machine ready to produce more combat forms collector drones, and Harby can retake the base at a moments notice.


And to metagame maybe that's how Cerberus and the reapers are working together,Harby contacts The assclown Illusive Man and they broker a deal or something.

[KevShep]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...


And to metagame maybe that's how Cerberus and the reapers are working together,Harby contacts The assclown Illusive Man and they broker a deal or something.

 
This could be possible. Cerberus might have discovered the real motives of the reaper through the collector base and thought that by working with the reapers actually benefits a pro human agenda. We still dont know what the reapers are really trying to do yet.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Saphra Deden wrote...

You're right, cleaning up after Cerberus is worth going up against the Reapers without any adequate intel or technology.

Not if gaining that intel or technology ends up weakening our other allies or turning them against us both of which are very real and very damning reasons not to give it to them.

Like I've said before if we could give the base to anyone else that I have faith in than I'd do that in a moment but when given only them I can't.

[TheZyzyva]

Saphra Deden wrote...

If you keep the base you have the option of taking it from Cerberus if you are so inclined.

Really? Did I miss something or are you passing off assumptions as fact again?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Based on Cerberus needing Shepard needing to clean up their messes most of ME2,it may be illogical to you but that doesn't mean it is illogical, I know you like to think your logic is infallible,but to many people the risk of having to clean up after Cerberus AGAIN,makes it a no-brainer.

It is illogical. Period.
Cleaing after Cerberus is a insignificant risk and effort, compared to fighting off the reapers.
If Shep doesn't want to clean up after factions periodicly, he has no business being a soldier or a Specter.

[Lotion Soronarr]

TheZyzyva wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

If you keep the base you have the option of taking it from Cerberus if you are so inclined.

Really? Did I miss something or are you passing off assumptions as fact again?

It is logical. Anything taht exists can be stolen or destroyed as long as it exists. The game never tells you what Shep plans to do in the future. That is for you to decide.

Blowing the base up later or taking it from Cerberus is a viable future options, speaking from a in-character point of view.

[Thompson family]

OK, I’ve read through page 10; seven more to go.

I’d like to thank the outnumbered but valiant bunch of forum members who tried to keep this thread on topic while I got some sleep, then got some work done.
It appears my inescapable fate is to reignite the “Cerberus, for and against” debate every couple of days with every thread I start. Oh well:

1. Saphra Deden, your argument that humanity doesn’t need aliens because of Mass Effect’s squadmate pathfinding issues is just goofy. The same argument could be used against human squadmates.
2. As for whether Cerberus “works in the shadows” while plastering its logo everywhere, that’s so severely off-topic you can’t even see it from here.
3. I might consider debating Cerberus’ “batting average” for successful projects if it has some direct bearing on whether a specific Renegade choice hinges on that track record.
4. SandTrout and aiDvEoN, I’ll address the points on your Renegade decisions’ list soon.
6. Wulfram raises a good point: “Killing Fist is particularly foolish, because it's murder and you don't have Spectre status to protect you from potential prosecution.”
Back to the eyestrain.

Modifié par Thompson family, 24 août 2011 - 09:13 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

VaultingFrog wrote...

What proof do you have that the CB would benefit the galaxy if we saved it? More importantly it would take years and probably more like decades before anything useful would be gained from that base.

That and oh yeah the Reapers could have left some dormant tech that would allow them to take command of the base at any time and indoctrinate anybody on it or near it.

There are too many unknowns to make it a worth while thing to save. Too many if's with out an assured payoff that would be worth those risks.

By that logic we should have never fiddled wiht ANY reaper tech. No Thanix, no EDI, no reaper IFF, no Conduit...no life in this cycle too.

How do I know it would benefit hte galaxy? Because it has advanced technology in it.

[Seboist]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

TheZyzyva wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

If you keep the base you have the option of taking it from Cerberus if you are so inclined.

Really? Did I miss something or are you passing off assumptions as fact again?

It is logical. Anything taht exists can be stolen or destroyed as long as it exists. The game never tells you what Shep plans to do in the future. That is for you to decide.

Blowing the base up later or taking it from Cerberus is a viable future options, speaking from a in-character point of view.

Yep, Shepard has the data for the Reaper IFF and can give to the Alliance and/or Council races.

[TheZyzyva]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It is logical. Anything taht exists can be stolen or destroyed as long as it exists. The game never tells you what Shep plans to do in the future. That is for you to decide.

Blowing the base up later or taking it from Cerberus is a viable future options, speaking from a in-character point of view.

No, that's for Bioware to decide. Yes, it might be a possibility, but we don't know. I would just like that clarification to be made. I have no problems with your opinions being different from mine, my problem comes from you passing off those opinions as straight fact or as the only logic.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Based on Cerberus needing Shepard needing to clean up their messes most of ME2,it may be illogical to you but that doesn't mean it is illogical, I know you like to think your logic is infallible,but to many people the risk of having to clean up after Cerberus AGAIN,makes it a no-brainer.

Cleaing after Cerberus is a insignificant risk and effort, compared to fighting off the reapers.

EXACTLY,so why even bother?

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

TheZyzyva wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

If you keep the base you have the option of taking it from Cerberus if you are so inclined.

Really? Did I miss something or are you passing off assumptions as fact again?

Read my sig,it's a direct quote as to why arguing with saphra is futile.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Saphra Deden wrote...

TheZyzyva wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

If you keep the base you have the option of taking it from Cerberus if you are so inclined.

Really? Did I miss something or are you passing off assumptions as fact again?

You see, everyone has this misconception that when they saved the base they agreed to give it to Cerberus. This is not true. TIM never asked for the base and Shepard never said he'd give it to him. All TIM did was ask that it not be destroyed.

Obviously the implication is that Cerberus will get the base, and they do. They do this because they are the only ones prepared to swoop in and grab it and because Shepard can't stop them right at that moment.

However that is just the result of circumstance. Beyond that there is no reason Shepard can't go and pay the Alliance or the Council a visit and suggest that they take it for themselves.

So when you meta-game,assume,and ass-pull all is well and logical,but when anyone else does it,they are an idiot?

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Saphra Deden wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Not if gaining that intel or technology ends up weakening our other allies or turning them against us both of which are very real and very damning reasons not to give it to them.

Why would it weaken our allies or turn them against us?

What alternative is there anyway? If saving the base doesn't help you then not saving the base sure as hell won't help you either.

Either the base is necessary or it isin't, in which case keeping it doesn't change much.

If you keep the base you have the option of taking it from Cerberus if you are so inclined.

If studying the base it causes some sort of indoctrination effect on our allies that would weaken them, if it turns Cerberus indoctrinated (Which seems possible) than it will weaken our allies because they have to fight them now too.

That's the thing about my decision I could put alot of faith in an orginization that has shown to have a bad track record with their cells. Or I could remove the base all together and risk nothing horrible happening with Cerberus.
 
Another fact we failed to talk about before is once the Reapers arrive how hard do you think it will be for them to take the base back? It would only be a matter of minutes before they got into the Relay and removed the Cerberus agents guarding it. There we have another negative for keeping the base, in keeping it the Reaper are garenteed to get it back and in getting it back they can use it. If we destroyed it than at the very least they don't have that resource to use against us and in that regard destroying it is garenteed to be at least slightly usefull because now the Reapers only have themselves.

Finally where are you getting the idea that we can take the base back from Cerberus? Are we making things up?

[TheZyzyva]

Saphra Deden wrote...

You see, everyone has this misconception that when they saved the base they agreed to give it to Cerberus. This is not true. TIM never asked for the base and Shepard never said he'd give it to him. All TIM did was ask that it not be destroyed.

Obviously the implication is that Cerberus will get the base, and they do. They do this because they are the only ones prepared to swoop in and grab it and because Shepard can't stop them right at that moment.

However that is just the result of circumstance. Beyond that there is no reason Shepard can't go and pay the Alliance or the Council a visit and suggest that they take it for themselves.

Thank you for replying with a grounded argument. 
I'll agree there is nothing stopping Shep from doing that, but until that option is presented to me in-game, I'm going to operate under the assumption that Cerberus, and only Cerberus, possesses the base. Too many other obvious answers like that have been ignored thus far for me to believe one would be thrown in now. 

[Thompson family]

1.Lotion Soronnar’s challenge: “Point me at something Cerberus did that didn't end up helping humanity.”

Overlord didn’t help humanity. It was neutral and may, arguably, go on to benefit humanity someday — since Shep was able to stop it in time to prevent a computer infestation apocalypse.
Gah! I’m being sucked into the off-topic vortex of Cerberus spin! Must — get — out!

2. Kaiser Shepard: “I can understand you guys being pro-Cerberus, but there's honestly nothing to justify all these anti-Anderson sentiments.” Agreed.

3. yfullman, not even I can argue with killing Elnora.