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[Lotion Soronarr]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...
Then you're insane. I am basing my gamble on a physical object that can be analyzed by people who have proven capable of doing exactly that in the past.

Your are basing your gamble on... what exactly? You've got nothing.

Saphra being an ass?

Good to know everything is normal here in our lovely wretched hive.

I noticed you didn't actually adress the issue/question....

Absolutely no point in doing so.
Saphra is set in his ways.
I'm set in mine.
We'd never actually convince each other of anything.


If there were a hypothetical scenario in which there could actually be a reasonable debate about these topics I'd gladly join in. Because I've always loved testing my wits against others.

But that's not what happens here.

Ehh..so you're avoiding answering the question wiht the old "this is not a reasonable debate, it's a waste of time to answer it". Dude, in the time it took you to type the above, you could have just answered it.

But we all know you're tying to avoid answering it, cause you don't have a good answer, right?

Actually I can safely destroy the Collector Base with the almighty power of meta-gaming.
It's not serious business so I don't really fret over it.

And the almighty power of meta-gaming is not what this is about, so you're again, dodging the question.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Mad180 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You do realise that you're not adressing his point with this?

It makes no sense AT ALL for TIM to be making his own reaper. None.

Never said he wanted to make a Reaper but he does want to know how it works. The fastest way to do that would be to throw so people in there. TIM's a end justifies the means kind of guy.

Nah. The fastest way would be to study the reaper core and the machinery. The core needs the outer shell. The outer shell hold all the engines, weapons, shield and other goodies.
I wouldn't put it past TIM to throw a few people into the machine, but:
a) I see no reason to do that - there's plenty of goo left to study
he can throw in collector corpses
c) he can just take apart one of the pods to see how they work.
d) If that's the price necessary to stop the reapers I won't be stopping him.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...
Then you're insane. I am basing my gamble on a physical object that can be analyzed by people who have proven capable of doing exactly that in the past.

Your are basing your gamble on... what exactly? You've got nothing.

Saphra being an ass?

Good to know everything is normal here in our lovely wretched hive.

I noticed you didn't actually adress the issue/question....

Absolutely no point in doing so.
Saphra is set in his ways.
I'm set in mine.
We'd never actually convince each other of anything.


If there were a hypothetical scenario in which there could actually be a reasonable debate about these topics I'd gladly join in. Because I've always loved testing my wits against others.

But that's not what happens here.

Ehh..so you're avoiding answering the question wiht the old "this is not a reasonable debate, it's a waste of time to answer it". Dude, in the time it took you to type the above, you could have just answered it.

But we all know you're tying to avoid answering it, cause you don't have a good answer, right?

Actually I can safely destroy the Collector Base with the almighty power of meta-gaming.
It's not serious business so I don't really fret over it.

And the almighty power of meta-gaming is not what this is about, so you're again, dodging the question.

The second part of the answer is not a dodge at all.
I as the player am able to know things that Shepard being a game character cannot. I could put in extra effort to view things from a strictly in story perspective and I could justify either decision; either A Shepard thinks that something beneficial might come from keeping the base and therefore preserves it or B Shepard doesn't think anything beneficial will come from the base *or just plain doesn't trust TIM* and therefore destroys it.
It's actually really simple.

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 28 août 2011 - 11:44 .

[Mad180]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Mad180 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Yes it is. ti's there. It exists. It's a physical object proven to exist. It's existance is a FACT. The existance of reaper tech in it is a FACT.
Existance of any other source of anti-reaper tech is NOT.

No, I trust TIM because of his past record. EVERYTHING Cererus did follows a pattern (strengthen humanity). Everything TIM did in ME2 was agasint the Repaers & Collectors. It makes perfect sense for him to use the base agaisnt the reapers - reapers will destroy humantiy AND him. That's not blind faith. That's faith based on past fact and reasonable assumption.

On the other hand, what reason you have to mis-trust him? Because he's Cerberus? Glowy eyes? Your trust in his evilness is blind faith, as you really got nothing solid to base it on.

So yeah..your logic is rubbish

The FACT that it exists DOES NOT make it a solution. There's no way to know if anything you find will help you against the Reapers. What about the mass accelerator weapon used to take out the Derelict Reaper. Sounds like anti-reaper tech to me. You know little to nothing about TIM's motives... for all you know he is working for the Reapers. Oh wait! HE IS!!!!

The fact that it does exist makes it a CREDIBLE solution. Non-existing hypothetical storages of anti-reper information are not.
Really, do you expect that studying advanced tech will result in NOTHING? When's the last time that happened? SOMETHING will come out of it, ther'es no if's about it. The only question is how much worth it will be and how long will it take.

Also, who found that (defunct) super mass-driver? Cerberus again. Seems to me they are the only ones actually looking for solutions.

As for TIM's motives. That is where you're wrong. You assume that's he'll turn against you based on nothing.
I assume he won't based on EVERYTHING HE HAS DONE FOR THE PAST 20 YEARS.
For 20 years he and Cerberus have been working agasint the reapers. What sane person would go an assume that him turning agasint humanity is a likely and credible outcome?

Saying TIM will turn on you is no more credible than saying anyone else from your crew would.

You are twisting my words. I never said nothing would be found but it's usefulness against the Reapers is unknown and therefore a maybe.  Yes TIM found the mass accelerator weapon but he doesn't seem to care. Why not study that find out how it worked and build another one. But no it's a better idea to go get the IFF so we can follow the Collectors to the galactic core because.... well why the f*** not. At this point whats beyond the Omaga 4 Relay is unknown, for all we know everyone will die when we go through. If you and your team dies TIM still gets the base and doesn't really seem to care about you or your team. 

[Thalador]

Snapping that moron Eclipse idiot's neck in Miri's loyalty mission.

Shooting Kenson when she was threatening to blow us up.

Killing the batarian mechanic fixing Tarak's gunship.

Going after Vido and letting Zaeed to burn that sob.

And I'm starting to think that blowing up the geth heretics is the right choice. Possibly the same with keeping the base, but that'll be decided when TIM's true motives are revealed.

[Thompson family]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Let's see, which is a bigger leap of faith?

"Cerberus can study this physical Reaper base and hopefully devise a means to fight the Reapers."

Or this one...

"I blew up the base and I'll find another way to beat the Reapers... some... way... that I don't really know what it is..."

Flaw in your logic there, SD.

It's not a Reaper base.

It's a Collector base, something the Reapers built for their relatively brainless drones. The actual Reaper in it -- far and away the most valuble find -- had to be destroyed, Paragon or Renegade.

So what you're arguing would be similar to this in World War II: "Let's study this captured dockyard where civilians including forced labor was working on the new Type XXI U-boat the Germans were building and see what it tells us about that highly advanced type." You're not going to find much. What you really need are detailed plans for building the U-boat.

Certainly the base had that and other useful intelligence in it -- which EDI data-mines right out of it long before the Collectors were destroyed. You can plainly see that. By the time the attack on the Collector base begins, she's already able to provide a fully detailed layout of the base.

If you can't capture a Type XXI U-boat to study, detailed plans are the best you can do. Fortunately, Reaper design plans were on the base and EDI found them.

Again, TIM doesn't want intelligence. EDI got that. Tim wants a functioning base, and the chief function of this base requires melting people.

If you're OK with melting people -- if you can beat them, become sludge and join them -- there's another consideration. What can get through the Omega 4 relay? The Normandy, and whatever ships Cerberus can equip with newly made IFF's -- and Reapers. So, leave the base intact and the Reapers can take the relatively lightly defended base right back.

Modifié par Thompson family, 28 août 2011 - 04:50 .

[Thompson family]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

I actually think the main problem is that people either hate TIM no matter what he does over anything the "TIM ate sugar, therefore sugar is evuuuul!!!!" factor.
And many others overlook all the bad he has done and praise him to the skies.

And then there's people like me who appreciate the help he has given and condemn the messed up sh*t that he's done.

Well put. He's certainly a devisive character. The better thing is to look on Cerberus actions as a whole. And on that point:

marshalleck wrote...
 LIke I said earlier. Paranoia. This sortof elaborate "so-and-so is out to get me" thing doesn't really convinve me, in light of all the ways TIM has shown that his actions are consistent with his beliefs. And again. I am aware that Cerberus are apparently an enemy in ME3, but I'm not considering it because my Shepard is not precognitive.

A fair argument, but a bit two-edged, marshalleck. I could argue that Renegade decisions to blow up the Heretics, kill the Rachni Queen, etc. are mainly driven by paranoia. You may argue that we've seen more consistency and even transparency (an odd but valid claim to make about such a secretive organization) from Cerberus, but still ...

Modifié par Thompson family, 28 août 2011 - 05:24 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

shiftylookingspacecow wrote...

Cerberus working for the Reapers actually didn't suprise me all that much.

Humor me on this

Weither or not you keep the base, the Illusive Man knows that the reapers were trying to make a human reaper. This intrigues him. Further study of the base, or not having the base leads him to the conclusion that the reapers cannot be stoped. His goal is, as it always has been, the preservation of hummanity, and if that means ascendance into godhood via the reapers, then that is just what is going to have to happen.

Doesn't really make sense because he's already aware that Shepard killed one... and that a super weapon killed another one.  They can be stopped.  TIM rarely does anything personally... and (at the end of ME2) he certainly didn't personally visit the Collector Base. 

He should also know that Reaper conquest takes years... so giving up right when they arrive is so premature that it still doesn't make sense for why TIM would give up.

The only explaination that makes sense at this point is if Shepard himself was percieved to be a threat... or TIM made a deal with the Reapers to buy the Earth some time.

Regardless, it's a continuity break from where things ended in ME2 compared to the Paragon ending... where Shepard being a target of Cerberus was well known.  The plot still seems to continue wrapping around Paragon choices.

[Seboist]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
Regardless, it's a continuity break from where things ended in ME2 compared to the Paragon ending... where Shepard being a target of Cerberus was well known.  The plot still seems to continue wrapping around Paragon choices.

Yeah, it's become quite apparent that the Renegade path is just the Paragon one with joke dialogue, less content and not much else.

[Xilizhra]

Seboist wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
Regardless, it's a continuity break from where things ended in ME2 compared to the Paragon ending... where Shepard being a target of Cerberus was well known.  The plot still seems to continue wrapping around Paragon choices.

Yeah, it's become quite apparent that the Renegade path is just the Paragon one with joke dialogue, less content and not much else.

Well, it's the same game... and if it had the same amount of content, you'd say that the Renegade path is the Paragon one with joke dialogue.

[Seboist]

Xilizhra wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
Regardless, it's a continuity break from where things ended in ME2 compared to the Paragon ending... where Shepard being a target of Cerberus was well known.  The plot still seems to continue wrapping around Paragon choices.

Yeah, it's become quite apparent that the Renegade path is just the Paragon one with joke dialogue, less content and not much else.

Well, it's the same game... and if it had the same amount of content, you'd say that the Renegade path is the Paragon one with joke dialogue.

True, the content issue is just one of many.

[Thompson family]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
The plot still seems to continue wrapping around Paragon choices.

I was going to argue with that, but then realized that you're probably right, considering BioWare history.

Even with that acknowledgement, Gogeta34, there's still a problem.

It's hard to deny that Renegades haven't spent two games painting themselves into a corner here. The best example I can cite is the decision that sparing the Council is worse than going after Soverign, the "real target."

No, it's not. Soverign is just the scout for the real threat: the coming Reaper invasion. Unless you assume that the Reapers would leave themselves only one way of getting back to the galaxy, concentrating on Sovereign to save a few Alliance ships at the cost of undermining the coalition that has a coming invasion to face is not the logical choice.

Sovereign has to have Saren go in to the Citadel tower to get control of the station. It's a risk, but if Shep stops Saren and the Council is saved, a united front against the Reapers is made much more likely.

[Thompson family]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

Flaw in your logic there, SD.

It's not a Reaper base.

It's building a Reaper. It's a Reaper base for all intents and purposes.

Cherry picking one quote out of my posts, ignoring all the supporting arguments and giving that one brief statement the short shrift is becoming a specialty of yours, SD.

Also, I'll point out that it's sure not builing a Reaper any more --unless TIM's making one now.

Modifié par Thompson family, 28 août 2011 - 05:40 .

[Xilizhra]

 

True, the content issue is just one of many.

How would you expect it to be a different game if you played Renegade?

[Thompson family]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

Cherry picking one quote out of my posts, ignoring all the supporting arguments

The main point of your post, the first sentence, the premise if you will, is crap. Thus there is no need to read the rest of it.

How convenient that must be for you.

[Bcuz]

Destroying the Geth, Giving TIM the base*, Killing the Council, snarky renegade quotes...
I've never played anything more red the Renegon, because I'm not about to kill innocents for the sake of killing innocents. However plotwise, several major choices that are renegade are realistic.

Or even, in my opinion, more morally correct (killing the geth)



*(Remember, Shep never read the comics/Novels, and if you RP that he believes the Alliance and Council abandoned him, it's not a smart choice but a realistic one.)

[Thompson family]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I love efficiency.

Yes, you efficienctly assert your views.

That's all.

Modifié par Thompson family, 28 août 2011 - 06:51 .

[Omega Torsk]

Unless you're a metagamer, I would say the "shoot first" options when someone has a gun pointed at you are realistic. It's just being smart.

[Thompson family]

Omega Torsk wrote...

Unless you're a metagamer, I would say the "shoot first" options when someone has a gun pointed at you are realistic. It's just being smart.

No denying that, but that's a Paragrade or Renegone rule. For instance, Shiala's not pointing a gun at anybody on Feros in ME1.

[Seboist]

Thompson family wrote...

Omega Torsk wrote...

Unless you're a metagamer, I would say the "shoot first" options when someone has a gun pointed at you are realistic. It's just being smart.

No denying that, but that's a Paragrade or Renegone rule. For instance, Shiala's not pointing a gun at anybody on Feros in ME1.

It's the same as executing Rana Thanoptis as punishment for subjecting captured STG to experiments. The only thing that makes it a bit odd is that it occurs after Shepard willingly participates in the mind transfer.

[Seboist]

Omega Torsk wrote...

Unless you're a metagamer, I would say the "shoot first" options when someone has a gun pointed at you are realistic. It's just being smart.

Yep, that's why I use the interrupt to punch out that Salarian in Thane's recruitment mission.

[Thompson family]

Seboist wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

... For instance, Shiala's not pointing a gun at anybody on Feros in ME1.

It's the same as executing Rana Thanoptis as punishment for subjecting captured STG to experiments. The only thing that makes it a bit odd is that it occurs after Shepard willingly participates in the mind transfer.

Shooting a prisoner who's just extended full cooperation including a vital piece of the puzzle after she herself was betrayed and imprisoned inside a plant. All that's odd. And throw in the fact she is a survivor who has recovered from indoctrination, and is therefore living proof the process can be reversed.

There's nothing about the decision to shoot her that makes any sense whatsoever.