951 réponses à ce sujet

[Sisterofshane]

Seboist wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

Omega Torsk wrote...

Unless you're a metagamer, I would say the "shoot first" options when someone has a gun pointed at you are realistic. It's just being smart.

No denying that, but that's a Paragrade or Renegone rule. For instance, Shiala's not pointing a gun at anybody on Feros in ME1.

It's the same as executing Rana Thanoptis as punishment for subjecting captured STG to experiments. The only thing that makes it a bit odd is that it occurs after Shepard willingly participates in the mind transfer.

Shooting Shiala or Rana are exactly the same thing -- you get the information you need from them (either from interrogating or mind-meld) and then you choose to execute them for working with the enemy.  The ridiculousness of it is that Shepard gives them the death sentence after they willingly provided all useful data that they could (basically helped Shep in his investigation.)

[Seboist]

Thompson family wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

... For instance, Shiala's not pointing a gun at anybody on Feros in ME1.

It's the same as executing Rana Thanoptis as punishment for subjecting captured STG to experiments. The only thing that makes it a bit odd is that it occurs after Shepard willingly participates in the mind transfer.

Shooting a prisoner who's just extended full cooperation including a vital piece of the puzzle after she herself was betrayed and imprisoned inside a plant. All that's odd. And throw in the fact she is a survivor who has recovered from indoctrination, and is therefore living proof the process can be reversed.

There's nothing about the decision to shoot her that makes any sense whatsoever.

Based on a brief encounter that lasted a few minutes? Kenson acted perfectly normal until she and Shepard reached Object Rho...

[Thompson family]

Seboist wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

Shooting a prisoner who's just extended full cooperation including a vital piece of the puzzle after she herself was betrayed and imprisoned inside a plant. All that's odd. And throw in the fact she is a survivor who has recovered from indoctrination, and is therefore living proof the process can be reversed.

There's nothing about the decision to shoot her that makes any sense whatsoever.

Based on a brief encounter that lasted a few minutes?

Those "few minutes" included giving Shep the Cipher and anwering fully every question she could. Without the information, Shep could not have succeeded.

Kenson acted perfectly normal until she and Shepard reached Object Rho...

Yes, while she needed Shep's help to escape and then led Shep directly into a trap. Perfectly normal, at least as perfectly normal as Saren.

Modifié par Thompson family, 28 août 2011 - 08:59 .

[Omega Torsk]

Sisterofshane wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

Omega Torsk wrote...

Unless you're a metagamer, I would say the "shoot first" options when someone has a gun pointed at you are realistic. It's just being smart.

No denying that, but that's a Paragrade or Renegone rule. For instance, Shiala's not pointing a gun at anybody on Feros in ME1.

It's the same as executing Rana Thanoptis as punishment for subjecting captured STG to experiments. The only thing that makes it a bit odd is that it occurs after Shepard willingly participates in the mind transfer.

Shooting Shiala or Rana are exactly the same thing -- you get the information you need from them (either from interrogating or mind-meld) and then you choose to execute them for working with the enemy.  The ridiculousness of it is that Shepard gives them the death sentence after they willingly provided all useful data that they could (basically helped Shep in his investigation.)

To me, it seemed like Rana let you into Saren's lab to cover her ass. By the time ME2 rolls around, it's obvious that she's still walking a shady street. While most of my Shepards let her go due to principle, a "focus on the mission" Shepard or a Shepard that smells a rat would kill her. This makes sense.

Shiala, on the other hand, is truly repentent. She gives you the Cipher purely out of faith and wants to redeem herself by aiding the colonists in Zhu's Hope. By the time ME2 rolls around, it's clear that her goals have not changed. Killing her is just messed up in my opinion.

Modifié par Omega Torsk, 28 août 2011 - 11:09 .

[111987]

I think killing Shiala could be seen as rational move by a Renegade Shepard. Say Shepard went to Noveria first and then Feros. At Noveria she would have seen how a person can break out of indoctrination temporarily, only to once again fall under its sway. A Renegade Shepard may reason that the same thing could happen again with Shiala, and thus removes any chance of her relapsing and causing further harm.

Or if you don't go to Noveria first and head straight to Feros, Shepard knows nothing about Indoctrination and could subsequently dismiss Shiala's story of being 'brainwashed' as an attempt to get out of the situation alive. Thus after Shepard get's the information he needs from her, he kills her because he does not believe her story and only realizes later she was telling the truth. At the time though, it would have been the logical thing to do out of the options presented (kill her or let her go free).

[TheCreeper]

I find it kinda annoying that they don't make a big deal over the fact that they found a way to break indoctrination.

[Thompson family]

A good try, but I can't agree, 111987

111987 wrote...

I think killing Shiala could be seen as rational move by a Renegade Shepard. Say Shepard went to Noveria first and then Feros. At Noveria she would have seen how a person can break out of indoctrination temporarily, only to once again fall under its sway. A Renegade Shepard may reason that the same thing could happen again with Shiala, and thus removes any chance of her relapsing and causing further harm.

Benezia never broke out of indotrination to any meaninful degree. She struggled against it throughout her clearly difficult efforts to help Shep. Shiala was free and clear, eager to cooperate and doing so fully.

Even if she relapses and goes back to people who sacrificed her to a mind-controlling turnip, what's Shiala going to do? Sorry, I just don't see a reason to fear a lone Asari who deeply betrayed Saren, Saren not being someone who takes betrayal or failure lightly, I'd guess.

Or if you don't go to Noveria first and head straight to Feros, Shepard knows nothing about Indoctrination and could subsequently dismiss Shiala's story of being 'brainwashed' as an attempt to get out of the situation alive. Thus after Shepard get's the information he needs from her, he kills her because he does not believe her story and only realizes later she was telling the truth.

In which case, killing her would have been a tragic and wholly avoidable mistake.

Modifié par Thompson family, 29 août 2011 - 04:29 .

[111987]

Thompson family wrote...

A good try, but I can't agree, 111987

111987 wrote...

I think killing Shiala could be seen as rational move by a Renegade Shepard. Say Shepard went to Noveria first and then Feros. At Noveria she would have seen how a person can break out of indoctrination temporarily, only to once again fall under its sway. A Renegade Shepard may reason that the same thing could happen again with Shiala, and thus removes any chance of her relapsing and causing further harm.

Benezia never broke out of indotrination to many meaninful degree. She struggled against it throughout her clearly difficult efforts to help Shep. Shiala was free and clear, eager to cooperate and doing so fully.

Even if she relapses and goes back to people who sacrificed her to a mind-controlling turnip, what's Shiala going to do? Sorry, I just don't see a reason to fear a lone Asari who deeply betrayed Saren, Saren not being someone who takes betrayal or failure lightly, I'd guess.

Or if you don't go to Noveria first and head straight to Feros, Shepard knows nothing about Indoctrination and could subsequently dismiss Shiala's story of being 'brainwashed' as an attempt to get out of the situation alive. Thus after Shepard get's the information he needs from her, he kills her because he does not believe her story and only realizes later she was telling the truth.

In which case, killing her would have been a tragic and wholly avoidable mistake.

True, Shepard could have reasoned that Benezia's escapes from Indoctrination would have been different from Shiala's escape from it. He could have reasoned through it, but ultimately he still doesn't know all that much about Indoctrination. Killing Shiala removes any chance of her reneging and doing more harm to the colony or escaping to continue doing Saren/Sovereign's command. Although I agree Saren would never forgive her for giving Shepard the Cipher.

Do I think it's a smart decision? Of course not! And except for my full Renegade playthrough I always save her. But I do think you CAN justify killing Shiala; taking out a potential, though highly unlikely threat.

[Sisterofshane]

111987 wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

A good try, but I can't agree, 111987

111987 wrote...

I think killing Shiala could be seen as rational move by a Renegade Shepard. Say Shepard went to Noveria first and then Feros. At Noveria she would have seen how a person can break out of indoctrination temporarily, only to once again fall under its sway. A Renegade Shepard may reason that the same thing could happen again with Shiala, and thus removes any chance of her relapsing and causing further harm.

Benezia never broke out of indotrination to many meaninful degree. She struggled against it throughout her clearly difficult efforts to help Shep. Shiala was free and clear, eager to cooperate and doing so fully.

Even if she relapses and goes back to people who sacrificed her to a mind-controlling turnip, what's Shiala going to do? Sorry, I just don't see a reason to fear a lone Asari who deeply betrayed Saren, Saren not being someone who takes betrayal or failure lightly, I'd guess.

Or if you don't go to Noveria first and head straight to Feros, Shepard knows nothing about Indoctrination and could subsequently dismiss Shiala's story of being 'brainwashed' as an attempt to get out of the situation alive. Thus after Shepard get's the information he needs from her, he kills her because he does not believe her story and only realizes later she was telling the truth.

In which case, killing her would have been a tragic and wholly avoidable mistake.

True, Shepard could have reasoned that Benezia's escapes from Indoctrination would have been different from Shiala's escape from it. He could have reasoned through it, but ultimately he still doesn't know all that much about Indoctrination. Killing Shiala removes any chance of her reneging and doing more harm to the colony or escaping to continue doing Saren/Sovereign's command. Although I agree Saren would never forgive her for giving Shepard the Cipher.

Do I think it's a smart decision? Of course not! And except for my full Renegade playthrough I always save her. But I do think you CAN justify killing Shiala; taking out a potential, though highly unlikely threat.

You can justify killing most anyone using that criteria -- however I would argue that it would border on "paranoia", and the killer could be labeled mentally ill because of it...
What's really backwards about the whole morality system is that the renegade player is allowed to kill many, many enemies based on that very reasoning, but it is the Paragon that is forced to use that reason at the end of ME2 when faced with the choice of giving TIM the CB or blowing it sky-high.  And those that choose to allow that little bit of  over-cautiousness to take over, the renegades start screaming about how misguided they are.

Makes us all seem a little schizo if you ask me.  There is just no consistency behind the reasoning.

[Thompson family]

Sisterofshane wrote...

What's really backwards about the whole morality system is that the renegade player is allowed to kill many, many enemies based on that very reasoning, but it is the Paragon that is forced to use that reason at the end of ME2 when faced with the choice of giving TIM the CB or blowing it sky-high.  And those that choose to allow that little bit of  over-cautiousness to take over, the renegades start screaming about how misguided they are.

I don't think the situation's that bad. I've already given reasons so this will be just a quick recap.

1. The real intelligence windfall, a small reaper under construction, had to be destroyed, paragon or renegade. The rest of the base is just a drydock built for drones who are "more husks than slaves," to quote Mordin.

2. The really usefull intelligence to be gained is the design and specifications of actual Reapers. That plus detailed intelligence on the "drydock" too was scooped up by EDI -- and relayed to TIM. We know the data mining was successful because EDI gave Shep a 3D model of the place to plan the attack.

TIM didn't want intelligence. He wanted a functioning base that melts people.

3. Only the SR2 and Cerberus ships with newly made imitation IFFs can navigate the Omega 4 Relay -- and Reapers. The intact base could not be successfully defended when the Reapers arrived. In the galaxy you can hide on any number of planets or in the vastness of space. On the other side of the Omega 4 realay, there's only a small safe zone.

The "smelting pot" is simply not the intelligence windfall TIM desperately tried to pretend it was.

Modifié par Thompson family, 29 août 2011 - 04:51 .

[111987]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Why would the base the need to be defended when the Reapers arrive?

So that the Reapers don't retake it and resume the construction of the Human-Reaper. While they could just start building it somewhere else it would probably save them a lot of time to use the factory they already have, which should be relatively intact.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Mad180 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Mad180 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Yes it is. ti's there. It exists. It's a physical object proven to exist. It's existance is a FACT. The existance of reaper tech in it is a FACT.
Existance of any other source of anti-reaper tech is NOT.

No, I trust TIM because of his past record. EVERYTHING Cererus did follows a pattern (strengthen humanity). Everything TIM did in ME2 was agasint the Repaers & Collectors. It makes perfect sense for him to use the base agaisnt the reapers - reapers will destroy humantiy AND him. That's not blind faith. That's faith based on past fact and reasonable assumption.

On the other hand, what reason you have to mis-trust him? Because he's Cerberus? Glowy eyes? Your trust in his evilness is blind faith, as you really got nothing solid to base it on.

So yeah..your logic is rubbish

The FACT that it exists DOES NOT make it a solution. There's no way to know if anything you find will help you against the Reapers. What about the mass accelerator weapon used to take out the Derelict Reaper. Sounds like anti-reaper tech to me. You know little to nothing about TIM's motives... for all you know he is working for the Reapers. Oh wait! HE IS!!!!

The fact that it does exist makes it a CREDIBLE solution. Non-existing hypothetical storages of anti-reper information are not.
Really, do you expect that studying advanced tech will result in NOTHING? When's the last time that happened? SOMETHING will come out of it, ther'es no if's about it. The only question is how much worth it will be and how long will it take.

Also, who found that (defunct) super mass-driver? Cerberus again. Seems to me they are the only ones actually looking for solutions.

As for TIM's motives. That is where you're wrong. You assume that's he'll turn against you based on nothing.
I assume he won't based on EVERYTHING HE HAS DONE FOR THE PAST 20 YEARS.
For 20 years he and Cerberus have been working agasint the reapers. What sane person would go an assume that him turning agasint humanity is a likely and credible outcome?

Saying TIM will turn on you is no more credible than saying anyone else from your crew would.

You are twisting my words. I never said nothing would be found but it's usefulness against the Reapers is unknown and therefore a maybe.  Yes TIM found the mass accelerator weapon but he doesn't seem to care. Why not study that find out how it worked and build another one. But no it's a better idea to go get the IFF so we can follow the Collectors to the galactic core because.... well why the f*** not. At this point whats beyond the Omaga 4 Relay is unknown, for all we know everyone will die when we go through. If you and your team dies TIM still gets the base and doesn't really seem to care about you or your team. 

It's not a unknown in these sense of will it be usefull or not. It's a unknown in the sense of the scale of usefull. How much you can get out of the base in time. The more you get out of it the more usefull it becomes. And you WILL get a LOT of out it - eventually.

The mass accelerator weapon is pretty much just a up-scaled mass driver. Think the DN gun but even bigger and longer. And it clearly didn't save the race before. It's a good "surprise" weapon (and apparentlya one-shot only), but if the reapers expect it. And whos' to say TIM isn' studying it? But you can hardly put your hopes in a static one-shot gun.

I do agree that Omega 4 should have been probed. Recon before going in. What can I say, stupid plot in some palces.

As for TIM. What did you expect him to say or do when your team dies? It was a suicide mission and everyone knew it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Thompson family wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Let's see, which is a bigger leap of faith?

"Cerberus can study this physical Reaper base and hopefully devise a means to fight the Reapers."

Or this one...

"I blew up the base and I'll find another way to beat the Reapers... some... way... that I don't really know what it is..."

Flaw in your logic there, SD.

It's not a Reaper base.

It's a Collector base, something the Reapers built for their relatively brainless drones. The actual Reaper in it -- far and away the most valuble find -- had to be destroyed, Paragon or Renegade.

So what you're arguing would be similar to this in World War II: "Let's study this captured dockyard where civilians including forced labor was working on the new Type XXI U-boat the Germans were building and see what it tells us about that highly advanced type." You're not going to find much. What you really need are detailed plans for building the U-boat.

Wring. For one, the reaper core is still in there. For another, the shell was being built there too.
For another, there's machienery used to build the parts there. Studying that alone would be well worth it.
A reaper is a highly advnaced complex warship. You don build something like that wihout specialized equipment.

Certainly the base had that and other useful intelligence in it -- which EDI data-mines right out of it long before the Collectors were destroyed. You can plainly see that. By the time the attack on the Collector base begins, she's already able to provide a fully detailed layout of the base.

A basic scan of the base is not the same as data-mining it.
We saw EDI needs to be connected LOCALY to terminals. Hence, what makes you think she data-mined the entire base?

If you can't capture a Type XXI U-boat to study, detailed plans are the best you can do. Fortunately, Reaper design plans were on the base and EDI found them.

Sez who? Teh datapad does't tell you a thing of exactly what's on it.

Again, TIM doesn't want intelligence. EDI got that. Tim wants a functioning base, and the chief function of this base requires melting people.

No. The chief fuction is building a reaper. Melting people is only one part of hte process for hte core.

Only the SR2 and Cerberus ships with newly made imitation IFFs can
navigate the Omega 4 Relay -- and Reapers. The intact base could not be
successfully defended when the Reapers arrived. In the galaxy you can
hide on any number of planets or in the vastness of space. On the other
side of the Omega 4 realay, there's only a small safe zone.

Perfect place for a minefield.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 29 août 2011 - 06:43 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

111987 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Why would the base the need to be defended when the Reapers arrive?

So that the Reapers don't retake it and resume the construction of the Human-Reaper. While they could just start building it somewhere else it would probably save them a lot of time to use the factory they already have, which should be relatively intact.

And how does that even matter? Not only can anyone on the base self-destruct it (preventign the reapers ot get it), but evne if the reapers do get it, so what?
It wont' be of much use to them in the war. Destroying it notihng more than a minor annoyance.

[111987]

Saphra Deden wrote...

111987 wrote...

So that the Reapers don't retake it

Why would the Reapers bother retaking it during the middle of a war? It serves no purpose for them during the war.

One of their two main purposes in the war is to reproduce, or create a Human-Reaper. Re-taking the factory that facilitates this seems fairly logical. Especially when it would be fairly easy to accomplish. Also, assuming their is valuable tech/info there, you would think the Reapers would make it a priority to prevent this info/tech from being used against them.

[Thompson family]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It's not a unknown in these sense of will it be usefull or not. It's a unknown in the sense of the scale of usefull. How much you can get out of the base in time. The more you get out of it the more usefull it becomes. And you WILL get a LOT of out it - eventually.

Everything there was to get out of it was data-mined by EDI during the course of the SM, Lotion Soronna. She's already pulling up detailed 3-D models of the whole base before Shep & Co. even leave the Normandy to start the real attack. This is confirmed later when Joker hands the datapad with Reaper plans to Shep afterward.

All this data is transmitted to TIM, also (presumably through the entanglement communicator since there are certainly no com buoys nearby.

Everything that can be learned from the base has been learned from the base and has been transmitted to Cerberus. Shep can't stop that.

So I'll stop repeating myself when I can, but TIM didn't want intel. He has that. He wanted a functioning base.

[Thompson family]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

111987 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Why would the base the need to be defended when the Reapers arrive?

So that the Reapers don't retake it and resume the construction of the Human-Reaper. While they could just start building it somewhere else it would probably save them a lot of time to use the factory they already have, which should be relatively intact.

And how does that even matter? Not only can anyone on the base self-destruct it (preventign the reapers ot get it), but evne if the reapers do get it, so what?
It wont' be of much use to them in the war. Destroying it notihng more than a minor annoyance.

Then why were the Collectors at work there at all?

You can't say it's not important when the Reapers thought it important enough to bring attention to the Collectors by starting mass abductions of hundreds of thousands of people.

Look at this thread. One minute it's being argued that the base is absolutely vital to the future of mankind. The next, it's questioned why the Reapers would even bother to retake it.

Modifié par Thompson family, 29 août 2011 - 07:01 .

[111987]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

111987 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Why would the base the need to be defended when the Reapers arrive?

So that the Reapers don't retake it and resume the construction of the Human-Reaper. While they could just start building it somewhere else it would probably save them a lot of time to use the factory they already have, which should be relatively intact.

And how does that even matter? Not only can anyone on the base self-destruct it (preventign the reapers ot get it), but evne if the reapers do get it, so what?
It wont' be of much use to them in the war. Destroying it notihng more than a minor annoyance.

Like I said, they could construct the Reaper elsewhere, but if they can just retake the base, why wouldn't they?

[Golden Owl]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

Then why were the Collectors at work there at all?

They were just preparing for the war by weakening humanity a little. Now the Collectors are gone, so what good does the base serve the Reapers until after the war?

You are also ignoring the fact that the base doesn't need to be defended. The most important tech can be shipped out and spread around.

Actually I thought the Reapers were experimenting with how human genes/DNA, whatever...transferred over to the construction of a Reaper.

[khordlambert]

Golden Owl wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

Then why were the Collectors at work there at all?

They were just preparing for the war by weakening humanity a little. Now the Collectors are gone, so what good does the base serve the Reapers until after the war?

You are also ignoring the fact that the base doesn't need to be defended. The most important tech can be shipped out and spread around.

Actually I thought the Reapers were experimenting with how human genes/DNA, whatever...transferred over to the construction of a Reaper.

Not to mention, if they wanted to weaken humanity a little, they probably would've been better off attacking millitary targets like shipyards rather than colonies out in the middle of nowhere that have little to no real value beyond "people live there".

As for why the Reapers would want the base back, to get back to work on the Human-Reaper thing.

Modifié par khordlambert, 29 août 2011 - 07:41 .

[Zarathiel]

Thompson family wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It's
not a unknown in these sense of will it be usefull or not. It's a
unknown in the sense of the scale of usefull. How much you can get out
of the base in time. The more you get out of it the more usefull it
becomes. And you WILL get a LOT of out it - eventually.

Everything
there was to get out of it was data-mined by EDI during the course of
the SM, Lotion Soronna. She's already pulling up detailed 3-D models of
the whole base before Shep & Co. even leave the Normandy to start
the real attack. This is confirmed later when Joker hands the datapad
with Reaper plans to Shep afterward.

All this data is
transmitted to TIM, also (presumably through the entanglement
communicator since there are certainly no com buoys nearby.

Everything
that can be learned from the base has been learned from the base and
has been transmitted to Cerberus. Shep can't stop that.

A ladar scan is not the same thing as data mining the place. Lotion even pointed this out in his post, and you flat-out ignored it.

Even people who kept the base never got a chance to data mine it. EDI needs a manual uplink, and you never connect her. All that was transmitted to TIM was a) EDI's scans of the base and the fact that they were building a Reaper.

The datapad just shows a Reaper from various angles. There's no indication that it has the schematics for a fully formed Reaper. Likely, it has a list of information based on the reaper larva, the derelict reaper, and Sovereign.

[Dave of Canada]

The Base served as a base of operation of the Collectors to build Reapers and store their technology, which are now dead, thereby serving little to no purpose to them.

Retaking it would allow them to re-access their own technology and maybe speed up the creation of another Reaper (which, by the way, wasn't completed even after two years of constantly taking humans having an entire species devoted to it).

Blowing it up is probably a minor inconvenience because the only benefit they'd lose is maybe delaying how long it would take to start operation.

Keeping it on the other hand allows us to research their technology before they get here, which we can easily destroy the base afterward (but won't happen due to how Bioware story is structured) and keeping it will serve them little purpose because we've hopefully learned by then.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 29 août 2011 - 08:25 .