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[Kaiser Shepard]

Sethan_1 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Sethan_1 wrote...

I've spared the Rachni queen on every playthrough. That said, killing her is the sensible option.

In the Rachni war, the queen said the Rachni of the time were 'forced' into the war. From the description, they weren't coerced. They were controlled/indoctrinated. Given that the Rachni are telepathic, there's a good chance it could happen to the entire species again when the Reapers arrive. Thus, killing the queen makes more sense.

But you don't know that at the time of the decision.

Actually you do - The Rachni queen tells you as much, before you have to make the decision.

Why would one take anything that creature says for granted?

[Dean_the_Young]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Sethan_1 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Sethan_1 wrote...

I've spared the Rachni queen on every playthrough. That said, killing her is the sensible option.

In the Rachni war, the queen said the Rachni of the time were 'forced' into the war. From the description, they weren't coerced. They were controlled/indoctrinated. Given that the Rachni are telepathic, there's a good chance it could happen to the entire species again when the Reapers arrive. Thus, killing the queen makes more sense.

But you don't know that at the time of the decision.

Actually you do - The Rachni queen tells you as much, before you have to make the decision.

Why would one take anything that creature says for granted?

Because no one lies in the Mass Effect universe unless they have incredibly obvious tells, ominous music and lighting and glances at the lie, or if it is not directly confronted and revealed as a lie within five/fifteen minues (or the end of the next mission).

[Yakko77]

Celestina wrote...

When I headbutted a Krogan. Without a helmet.

I love doing that.  Pretty much all the renegade interupts in ME2 are practical and realistic.  Maybe not punching the paniced Salarian during the Thane recruitment mission but most others are.  Even my paragon Sheps exercise the renegade interupt.  Stabbing Cathka in the back, pushing merc out window, shooting fuel tank under Krogan, shooting mech with Garrus' sniper rifle, etc.  Generally I restrict my renegade interupt useage when it comes to my companions to try to steer them down a paragon path but otherwise the renegade interupt option are usually very viable and realistic tactically speaking.

[Xilizhra]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Sethan_1 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Sethan_1 wrote...

I've spared the Rachni queen on every playthrough. That said, killing her is the sensible option.

In the Rachni war, the queen said the Rachni of the time were 'forced' into the war. From the description, they weren't coerced. They were controlled/indoctrinated. Given that the Rachni are telepathic, there's a good chance it could happen to the entire species again when the Reapers arrive. Thus, killing the queen makes more sense.

But you don't know that at the time of the decision.

Actually you do - The Rachni queen tells you as much, before you have to make the decision.

Why would one take anything that creature says for granted?

I don't. However, the moral and opportunity costs of killing her out of hand are too high, and I have no true reason to be suspicious of this individual.

[Gabey5]

Bad renegade choices
Killing Ronald Taylor
Killing rachni- at best they will be great allies, at worst they won't have any numbers to do anyone any harm
Shooting Conrad Verner- biggest wtf moment
Killing Shiala- she was under the influence of a reaper
Destroying The Genophage research- Why get rid of a possible resource to band the krogan together?
Colinists on Feros- Could have been taken out with the gas easily by shepard's crew
The Collecter Base-  TIM cannot be trusted for one, second they have already been indoctrinated before in the other reaper, Plus the chocie gives cerberus the base, if it was Alliance and Shep would be involved i would consider it. We know nothing about the Ilusuive man shepard knows even less

People who say paragon's are idealists or naive are wrong, Getting all these sepcies to work together will be a leap of faith and will require a lot of trust, or the reapers will simply divide and conquer us while we bicker

Modifié par Gabey5, 02 octobre 2011 - 09:06 .

[111987]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

111987 wrote...

You're dancing around the issue of purpose. The Human Reaper is created to continue the cycle harvesting, as that is why it's being built. That is a fundamental part of their existence.

And the Rachni Queen was was bred by a species-group fanatically devoted to destroying all the intruders. The purpose of the breeding certainly wasn't to make peace with the non-Rachni: the Rachni Queen's displacement was an accident of history.

There are a lot of arguments you could make, such as the ability of individuals to make their own choices in their own circumstances and not be bound to the ideals of the parents. Arguing the later, which you do just now, directly condemns not only the Human Reaper, but the Rachni Queen herself. She was conceived to continue the war of an species. If parental intent condemns the Human Reaper, than so it does the Rachni Queen.

Guilt-by-blood is a double-edged sword. If you use it against the Human Reaper, denying it against the Rachni Queen is hypocrisy of the finist caliber.

The Rachni are very territorial, but are not outwardly aggresive like the Reapers,

You, ahem, realize that the Salarian motto of 'hold the line' started with reference to the Rachni, yes?

Once the Council explorers found them, the Rachni were the invaders.

Heretic Geth, etc...Their purpose and goals does not line in the harming, destruction, or subjugation of others.

I understand your points,

Considering you just foul balled the last one, probably not...

but comparing the Rachni to the Reapers or Geth isn't a fair compairson.

It certainly is, unless you intend to argue that Reapers and Geth lack the ability of self-determination and are chained by instinct (which would conflict with what we know of them) while the Rachni do have free will and self-determination (which nothing in history or experience suggests or supports).

How do you know why that egg was placed on a ship? It's just as likely that the egg was placed on the ship and stored in order to preserve the Rachni race, rather than to continue the war effort. That was my initial thought on the manner.

Human Reaper is both organic and AI based though, so there's a undetermined amount of programming involved. AI's and organics cannot be treated the same way.

But we know the Rachni were invading because of Reaper indoctrination. From a non-metagaming perspective though, we don't know exactly how the Rachni situation played out. Was it just that the Salarians opened up a dormant relay and the Rachni attacked, or were the Salarians to enroaching on Rachni territory? Since communication with the Rachni Queens was impossible during the war, it's impossible to know that the Rachni would have attacked regardless. From the Rachni perspective, without any communication with the other races they would only see it as a hostile race intruding on their territory, and being territorial, tried to eliminate these intruding aliens. The Rachni Queen on Noveria had perspective the other Rachni during the wars lacked, making her a different case.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Xilizhra wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Sethan_1 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Sethan_1 wrote...

I've spared the Rachni queen on every playthrough. That said, killing her is the sensible option.

In the Rachni war, the queen said the Rachni of the time were 'forced' into the war. From the description, they weren't coerced. They were controlled/indoctrinated. Given that the Rachni are telepathic, there's a good chance it could happen to the entire species again when the Reapers arrive. Thus, killing the queen makes more sense.

But you don't know that at the time of the decision.

Actually you do - The Rachni queen tells you as much, before you have to make the decision.

Why would one take anything that creature says for granted?

I don't. However, the moral and opportunity costs of killing her out of hand are too high, and I have no true reason to be suspicious of this individual.

Do explain.

[Medhia Nox]

If all the genius that was on BSN was applied to real world issues... stuff would get done, for srsly.

====

The Rachni queen does say:

"A tone from space hushed one voice after another. It forced the singers to resonate with its own sour yellow note."

Not knowing about indoctrination shouldn't stop any intelligent being from understanding that she is suggesting that something from outside the Rachni influenced them.

===

What is exactly "self-determined" by paralyzing a race of organic beings and grinding them up?

While I could accept some argument about the Geth (despite my refusal to accept AI as a possibility - that's my own issue) - the Reapers are not voluntarily made.

====

"Genocides weight... blah blah blah." Dean_The_Young.

That is complete opinion based on pure ephemera. Either the universe is possessed of absolute truths - or it is not.

If it is not - statements such as you made, as all human assertions, are meaningless without the power to enforce them.

If it is - any human claiming to possess both the absolute truth and the understanding of it - is a liar or ignorant of his/her own error.

====

This also applies to the ME universe - though I suspect that the Bioware team will be benevolent Creator deities - and try to appease their entire audience.

However - Bioware is within their right to declare which option is "absolutely" the correct of the two.

And - if it is left up to Shepard - who possesses the "power to enforce" their opinion - then that truth becomes correct at that time and place. Not a single other being is capable or willing to enforce their own truth upon the situation.

===

I suspect Bioware will take the latter to remove themselves from controversy and appease all fans... therefore - either choice is simply a matter of opinion.

Arguing them - simply a matter of ego.

===

And my ego recommends spending the copious amounts of self-importance on these threads out in the real world where it can change things.

[Dean_the_Young]

111987 wrote...

How do you know why that egg was placed on a ship?

If the Rachni Queen is honest, her mother was indoctrinated and compelled to war. If the Rachni Queen was not honest, her mother was simply compelled to war and the whole Rachni Wars is as they appeared: hyper-aggressive species warfare.

Regardless of which, the fact that the ship was a wreck when found generally indicates that such was not it's intended role. Elementary inference.

It's just as likely that the egg was placed on the ship and stored in order to preserve the Rachni race, rather than to continue the war effort. That was my initial thought on the manner.

So now the Rachni are incompetent survivors and sabotage their own ships?

Human Reaper is both organic and AI based though, so there's a undetermined amount of programming involved. AI's and organics cannot be treated the same way.

EDI and Legion both represent AI that, through context, can evolve and shape their own views. Damning the Human Reaper, before it was even completed and ignorring any idea of reprogramming any bare-minimum against a hypothetical 'YOU MUST KILL' compulsion, still ignores what we've seen in AI development and still condemns it for the sins of its predecessors. Your entire case on the inherent malevolence of the thing is that, despite having done nothing to anyone, it's parents were bad people and thus it must be bad.

Neither can organics be compared as intrensically independent and free-willed in nature. Bugs are not the same as birds are not the same as monkeys are not the same as humans. There are species that are naturally set in their ways despite evolutionary sophistication. There are non-intelligent species (like pets) that can be emotionally and behaviorally shaped by experience. Simply because there are free-willed species in the galaxy that are intelligent does not mean that any intelligent species in the galaxy are free willed.

Treating the Rachni Queen as a human simply because she talks through an Asari is projection of the highest caliber. The proof of similarity is a history of similarity: we can relate with the Turians and Citadel species not simply because they are aliens and aliens are like us, but that there are some aliens that are like us... and there aliens that are not like us. We can relate with Salarians. We can not relate with Keepers.

But we know the Rachni were invading because of Reaper indoctrination. From a non-metagaming perspective though, we don't know exactly how the Rachni situation played out. Was it just that the Salarians opened up a dormant relay and the Rachni attacked, or were the Salarians to enroaching on Rachni territory?

The Salarians crossed a Mass Relay, unaware of anything beyond it. Then the Rachni actually invaded.

Since communication with the Rachni Queens was impossible during the war, it's impossible to know that the Rachni would have attacked regardless.

But the Rachni did attack once they knew of outsiders. This Queen knows of outsiders now. It still has the memories of old Rachni territory as well. The Rachni territorialism of history isn't simply attacking tresspassers: it's going out, finding the tresspassers, and smiting them.

From the Rachni perspective, without any communication with the other races they would only see it as a hostile race intruding on their territory, and being territorial, tried to eliminate these intruding aliens. The Rachni Queen on Noveria had perspective the other Rachni during the wars lacked, making her a different case.

Communication was not impossible during the war. Council attempts failed. It's the difference between 'can not talk' and 'did not want to talk.' The Council did try, and failed to initiate a conversation. If the Rachni had wanted to send messages, they easily could have: not continuing invasions, leaving non-verbal signals, possessing near-dead Asari to act as messangers...

The Rachni Queen's only additional 'perspective' is that not only was she born with the memories of her war-mongering mothers, but she has the lovely experience of peak 15. She is not a specimen with a alternate developmental history: she is not a leader of some long-lost tribe deep in the Amazon, which has developed independantly for hundreds of years. She is the equivalent of a time leap: a babe plucked right from the throes of the Rachni War, thrown a thousand years into the future, and with all the inherited memories and characteristics of the natural Rachni of that time.

[Dean_the_Young]

Medhia Nox wrote...

If all the genius that was on BSN was applied to real world issues... stuff would get done, for srsly.

====

The Rachni queen does say:

"A tone from space hushed one voice after another. It forced the singers to resonate with its own sour yellow note."

Not knowing about indoctrination shouldn't stop any intelligent being from understanding that she is suggesting that something from outside the Rachni influenced them.

And what, pray tell, is this magical source of compulsion that no one in the galaxy has ever had any mention or evidence of? Where did it come from? What proof is there that it exists?

'A tone from space' is the same basis of argument as 'the Devil made me do it.' It disavows responsibility

What is exactly "self-determined" by paralyzing a race of organic beings and grinding them up?

The same reason you are capable of self-determination even though 'you' had no say in your own creation: the ability of an individual to choose their own future actions despite their own lack of input in their creation.

While I could accept some argument about the Geth (despite my refusal to accept AI as a possibility - that's my own issue) - the Reapers are not voluntarily made.

You never had a say in your conception either.

====

"Genocides weight... blah blah blah." Dean_The_Young.

That is complete opinion based on pure ephemera. Either the universe is possessed of absolute truths - or it is not.

We are talking about a social convention here. While I'm certainly in... awe... of your 'your entire argument is meaningless, because it either can not be true or you are a liar' counter-argument, it's rather irrelevant because we are, again, talking about a social convention.

Social conventions do exist. They might change in the next 50/100 years... but we aren't talking about this in 50 years. We are talking about this now. The social conventions of now are the ones with meaning.

And my ego recommends spending the copious amounts of self-importance on these threads out in the real world where it can change things.

Yes, yes, we get how righteous and superior you are. Thank you for sharing your wisdom with us, oh great philosopher of virtue.

[111987]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

If the Rachni Queen is honest, her mother was indoctrinated and compelled to war. If the Rachni Queen was not honest, her mother was simply compelled to war and the whole Rachni Wars is as they appeared: hyper-aggressive species warfare.

Regardless of which, the fact that the ship was a wreck when found generally indicates that such was not it's intended role. Elementary inference.

How exactly is that an elementary inference? You don't think a ship drifting for 1000 + years might sustain some damage?

Dean_the_Young wrote...
So now the Rachni are incompetent survivors and sabotage their own ships?

Like I said, damage can happen to a ship after 1000 years. And the Rachni clearly aren't incompetent survivors because they did survive.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
EDI and Legion both represent AI that, through context, can evolve and shape their own views. Damning the Human Reaper, before it was even completed and ignorring any idea of reprogramming any bare-minimum against a hypothetical 'YOU MUST KILL' compulsion, still ignores what we've seen in AI development and still condemns it for the sins of its predecessors. Your entire case on the inherent malevolence of the thing is that, despite having done nothing to anyone, it's parents were bad people and thus it must be bad.

Both EDI and Legion are limited AI (EDI being shackled, Legion only being able to have a finite amount of programs in the platform). Besides, you're missing the point. EDI and Legion were not designed to harm other people. Reapers are. I am no condemning the Human Reaper because its parents were evil, I am condemning it because it's entire purpose and existence is based on harming others.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Treating the Rachni Queen as a human simply because she talks through an Asari is projection of the highest caliber. The proof of similarity is a history of similarity: we can relate with the Turians and Citadel species not simply because they are aliens and aliens are like us, but that there are some aliens that are like us... and there aliens that are not like us. We can relate with Salarians. We can not relate with Keepers.

Not sure what you're going on about here...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The Salarians crossed a Mass Relay, unaware of anything beyond it. Then the Rachni actually invaded.

That's the Council's version of the situation, anyways. History is written by the victors, is it not? (Hint: it is)

Dean_the_Young wrote...
But the Rachni did attack once they knew of outsiders. This Queen knows of outsiders now. It still has the memories of old Rachni territory as well. The Rachni territorialism of history isn't simply attacking tresspassers: it's going out, finding the tresspassers, and smiting them.

And this Rachni Queen also knows what happened when upholding that mantra, so it's not a stretch to assume she would learn and change from it.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Communication was not impossible during the war. Council attempts failed. It's the difference between 'can not talk' and 'did not want to talk.' The Council did try, and failed to initiate a conversation. If the Rachni had wanted to send messages, they easily could have: not continuing invasions, leaving non-verbal signals, possessing near-dead Asari to act as messangers...

The ultimate difference now though is that the Rachni Queen did communicate with organics, and both have a better understanding of one another.

[Weltea]

Re:OP
I usually play as Paragade but I do have to say that Renegade choices can pretty much always be considered realistic choices because usually there arre arguments to be made for both sides,I'd even say Renegade often appears as the more logical choice (especially considering Shepards backrounds).
Examples:

• choosing to let the Council die because Shepard doesn't know how long it is until Sovereign regains control of the station,the geth could still blow up a few ships and noone knows how many are needed to destroy Sovereign so why waste ships on the Destiny Ascension that can't help fight when everyone's live is at stake?
• even killing the Rachni Queen can be considered the more realistic choice because what Shepard's seeing is an insect looking creature controlling a dead person and telling him that even though he just got attacked by a dozen rachni and there's this thing called the rachni wars they really are just harmless,and yeah sure her whole race got mind-controlled by something before but surely that won't happen again

As for your Balak example: There are actually many good examples where the Renegade choice might really strike one as unrealistic but this really isn't one.

• Balak is a terrorist. He hates humans and will undoubtley try again
• There are enough batarian fanatics that'd like to hurt humans.
• (unless I am wrong there are 3 people held hostage,that can hardly be considered half dozen since a dozen=12)
• out of the 8 people on that planet one is save from Balak and 4 were killed on his orders
• one doesn't negotiate with terrorists/murderers because it sets a bad example ("look,that guy killed a few humans and then he got what he wanted.I think I know what I'll do")
• I doubt a conversation like the one you wrote down would happen (not only because I really wouldn't call Shepard the universes most famous badass until AFTER Arrival,but also because I doubt batarians terrorists would remember it that way)
• ...

also;you shouldn't forget that ParagonShep and RenegadeShep are essentially two completely different characters with different motives and thought prozesses...

[Dean_the_Young]

111987 wrote...

How exactly is that an elementary inference? You don't think a ship drifting for 1000 + years might sustain some damage?

Not if it were deliberatly drifiting and hiding: if it were deliberate, then systems any competent group could provide would be able to avoid unnecessary damage that could threaten to destroy the last frozen egg.

Mind you, a frozen egg really isn't preserving the species.

Like I said, damage can happen to a ship after 1000 years. And the Rachni clearly aren't incompetent survivors because they did survive.

That can't even qualify for a tautalogy, because the difference between competentent survivors and incompetent survivors is competence, not surviving.

Both EDI and Legion are limited AI (EDI being shackled, Legion only being able to have a finite amount of programs in the platform). Besides, you're missing the point. EDI and Legion were not designed to harm other people. Reapers are. I am no condemning the Human Reaper because its parents were evil, I am condemning it because it's entire purpose and existence is based on harming others.

It's entire purpose as intended by its parents. The Reaper has done nothing, nor have you even so much given it the opportunity to do anything else. If you intend to argue inherency by the motives of its creators, apply that equally: EDI was designed to kill people (the enemies of Humanity, as designated by Cerberus), and Legion was crafted to serve as a military platform and kill people (the enemies of the Geth, as designated by the True Geth consensus).

You've yet to establish any basis as to why the Human Reaper is inherently evil on its own right, without relying on association to other Reapers.

Not sure what you're going on about here...

You assume that because it talks, it thinks like a human.

That's the Council's version of the situation, anyways. History is written by the victors, is it not? (Hint: it is)

And with time, even the victors see history revealed. Is there any proof to support your implication of conspiracy, or are you simply trying to discredit anything that won't work for your narrative? Do you even have an alternative thesis?

Or is your entire point 'we weren't there, we can't know, and all history we didn't see is probably lies anyway'? That certainly wouldn't work well with your free reliance on other aspect of the Council's story... such as there not being any communication during the Rachni Wars.

And this Rachni Queen also knows what happened when upholding that mantra, so it's not a stretch to assume she would learn and change from it.

Why her, and not the other hundreds/thousands of Rachni Queens who didn't? It's not like this one has had a thousand years of impartiality of experience and memories to think things over.

The ultimate difference now though is that the Rachni Queen did communicate with organics, and both have a better understanding of one another.

She tells you something that casts her in a sympathetic light while your life is in her hands, and you believe her.

That isn't 'understanding.' That's a prelude to farce.

[CaptainZaysh]

Gabey5 wrote...

Killing rachni- at best they will be great allies, at worst they won't have any numbers to do anyone any harm

Those statements can't both be true.  They can't be both powerful allies and pathetic enemies.

[jamesp81]

In reference to the OP....

The most sensible renegade decision is keeping the collector base. In war, you always take the opportunity to reverse engineer and study your enemy's technology when that opportunity presents itself.

[111987]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Not if it were deliberatly drifiting and hiding: if it were deliberate, then systems any competent group could provide would be able to avoid unnecessary damage that could threaten to destroy the last frozen egg.

Like i said, 1000 years is a long time.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Mind you, a frozen egg really isn't preserving the species.

And yet it did.

Dean_the_Young wrote...It's entire purpose as intended by its parents. The Reaper has done nothing, nor have you even so much given it the opportunity to do anything else. If you intend to argue inherency by the motives of its creators, apply that equally: EDI was designed to kill people (the enemies of Humanity, as designated by Cerberus), and Legion was crafted to serve as a military platform and kill people (the enemies of the Geth, as designated by the True Geth consensus).

You are wrong about about the purposes of both EDI and Legion. EDI was designed to run certain systems on the Normandy, aid Shepard, and in battle, defend against and use hacking attacks. Legion is a mobile platform designed to interact with organics, NOT kill them.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
You've yet to establish any basis as to why the Human Reaper is inherently evil on its own right, without relying on association to other Reapers.

i'm not sure how else to put it. It is inherently evil because by nature of being a Reaper, it intends harm to organics. Yes, it is evil through association. But an AI, a machine, cannot be judged on the same terms as an organic.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
And with time, even the victors see history revealed. Is there any proof to support your implication of conspiracy, or are you simply trying to discredit anything that won't work for your narrative? Do you even have an alternative thesis?

Or is your entire point 'we weren't there, we can't know, and all history we didn't see is probably lies anyway'? That certainly wouldn't work well with your free reliance on other aspect of the Council's story... such as there not being any communication during the Rachni Wars.

No no, I'm just saying not everything should be taken at face value (kind of like your Legion conspiracy theories). It's entirely possible and probable that the war happened the way the Council recorded it to have occurred. Even if it was though, Shepard could see it as a terrible mistake, but a mistake that was paid for already by those whom committed the mistake.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Why her, and not the other hundreds/thousands of Rachni Queens who didn't? It's not like this one has had a thousand years of impartiality of experience and memories to think things over.

Because she knows what happened to the Rachni, and the Rachni Queens during the war didn't know how it would turn out?

Dean_the_Young wrote...
She tells you something that casts her in a sympathetic light while your life is in her hands, and you believe her.

That isn't 'understanding.' That's a prelude to farce.

Aren't you the one saying not to judge the Rachni like you would a Human? What you described is something that a human might do in a similar situation, not necesarrily a Rachni.

[Medhia Nox]

@Dean_The_Young:

- Concerning the "magical compulsion". While I would accept that you could not understand something you did not personally experience (and given the human ego - it is often a position of rejection to take someone elses experiences at face value). You can argue all you want - she presents you with a claim. You rejected out of hand and state that it's because you're endowed with some common sense which is lacking those who did not make the same choice.

You did not experience the Rachni wars either.

Lets assume you're an American. I truly hope you didn't take to heart everything you learned in the propaganda class called "American History". Because it's designed to indoctrinate you into nationalism. You were told half-truth after half-truth... and the vast majority of people don't ever look beyond it.

So - you state smugly that you cannot trust the Rachni queen who makes a claim her people were controlled - while digesting every ounce of "truth" from the Council races (which you assert you despise btw).

====

If you're equating animal and plant reproduction to the mass extinction of a species and the "birth" of a creature that shows no sign of containing any independent thought (we have no indication that any Reaper refutes the Cycle) - then that's you're own logic and I won't even bother.

The Reapers are programmed to commit to the Cycle.

Just like the Rachni queen - you only receive information by mouth from them. They "tell" you they're eternal and all powerful and "your salvation through destruction". It's fascinating that you listen to them given how clear headed and logical you are about the evil cricket in a glass bottle who is sure to doom the universe with music.

====

We ARE talking about social conventions - yet you state them like absolutes to hold up your argument.

In "that place that must not be named" - the social convention was to practice a draconian form of eugenics (or a "more" draconian form) and remove all undesirables from society. Was it justified because the state claims it was so?

Had they won - the "weight" of genocide would have been proclaimed as utterly justifiable and in a hundred years - two hundred - the atrocities would be forgotten.

But the knowledge that they are wrong is "a priori" for the majority of the human race. Even in the place and time that must not be named - large portions of the population knew what they were doing was wrong - and some had the courage to stand against it (both vocally and silently).

You can justify it all you want - you are a human, beneath the understanding of the universe. Any justification you can make is less than chaff.

===

As for my ego - it's well in tact I admit, but I'm neither righteous nor superior. Having an ego at all proves that.

You misunderstand completely - I assure you, I'm far less formally educated than you are likely to be - so rest assured you are my superior.

====

jamesp81 - but we have the luxury of living in a universe bereft of mind controlling super machines.

I'm not sure real world sensibilities can be applied to all fantastic situations.

The Trojan horse would be an example of the folly of that mindset in the real world.

Human arrogance will always be their undoing (it's a pity I've so much of it).

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 03 octobre 2011 - 04:15 .

[Yezdigerd]

Medhia Nox wrote...
So - you state smugly that you cannot trust the Rachni queen who makes a claim her people were controlled - while digesting every ounce of "truth" from the Council races (which you assert you despise btw).

I agree this is one of the funny things about the renegade club. Holding the council in contempt except when they want to murder something then they are spectres and all.
You as player has only some vague codex entry for to concerning the rachni war, that state that no communication with the rachni had succeded, yet here you are talking to a queen. and the renegade chose to dismiss everything she says.

I never understood how the queen can become such an immediate threat to galactic peace even if she lying either.The Rachni will need to repopulate worlds gather resources etc, this stuff is hardly just lying around is it?. It will take generations as the turian councilor points out.

As for the "better safe then sorry" it's just laughable, all races can be indoctrinated. Or take the Turians, a empire that unlike the Rachni been at war with humanity resent us, has a much larger military force, only understand the concept of total war etc.
A renegade would be more justifed exterminating them because "they can become a threat", then the rachni.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Rachni aren't people, they can't be treated like you and me.

[ddv.rsa]

Yezdigerd wrote...

Or take the Turians, a empire that unlike the Rachni been at war with humanity resent us, has a much larger military force, only understand the concept of total war etc.

A renegade would be more justifed exterminating them because "they can become a threat", then the rachni.

The Rachni are a threat to the entire galaxy, the Turians stand in the way of human dominance. Big difference.

But you're right, I'm sure lots of renegades would jump at the chance to get rid of them.  Unfortunately it hasn't come yet.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Yea:
- Keeping the collector Base
- Rushing in before anyone hurts
- Wiping out Rachni Queen!
- Leave the council to die
- Tali's Judge day
- etc.

[Xilizhra]

Do explain.

Simply put, the rachni are a completely new culture. Who knows what we could learn from them, if they turn out to not be inherently aggressive? New modes of technology, new cultural patterns, new ways of looking at the universe... killing the queen is more than killing one individual, it's the destruction of a whole culture. I simply don't have enough reason to believe she's dangerous to make that step.

[ddv.rsa]

Xilizhra wrote...

Do explain.

Simply put, the rachni are a completely new culture. Who knows what we could learn from them, if they turn out to not be inherently aggressive? New modes of technology, new cultural patterns, new ways of looking at the universe... killing the queen is more than killing one individual, it's the destruction of a whole culture. I simply don't have enough reason to believe she's dangerous to make that step.

Forgetting about the danger for a moment, would we even want another culture? In the ME universe human culture is already under heavy attack from the Council races, particularly the Asari.

[Xilizhra]

ddv.rsa wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Do explain.

Simply put, the rachni are a completely new culture. Who knows what we could learn from them, if they turn out to not be inherently aggressive? New modes of technology, new cultural patterns, new ways of looking at the universe... killing the queen is more than killing one individual, it's the destruction of a whole culture. I simply don't have enough reason to believe she's dangerous to make that step.

Forgetting about the danger for a moment, would we even want another culture? In the ME universe human culture is already under heavy attack from the Council races, particularly the Asari.

I won't reject it out of hand. And I seriously doubt human culture is under particular threat, as everywhere I look I can see a lot of human-focused touches. What would it be the effects of this "attack" in any case? Is it somehow becoming measurably worse?