951 réponses à ce sujet

[Zarathiel]

GSSAGE7 wrote...

I tend to play Paragon, with some Renegade decisions if it is in character for the Shepard.
The actions I usually pick are really just messing up Kelham, and killing Fist.

If the Eclipse Merc interrupt lasted until when she pulled the gun out, I would pull kill her instantly. Sadly, the icon goes away before she pulls it out.
I frankly don't see the point of killing Talid, when the Paragon interrupt is shooting the lamp to distract Kolyat, where you can just punch him and let Talid get away.

The only reason I've ever done this choice is simply to maximize renegade points so I can choose Intimidate options for Samara's LM and when Vasir takes the hostage In LotSB.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

SandTrout wrote...

Yes, though TIM is still responsible for not exercising appropriate oversight on the project.

Could the Batarians have been prevented from acquiring the missle base? (putting the N7 base at fault for not defending well enough?)

[Asari_Party]

SandTrout wrote...

On topic, the most obviously realistic Renegade choices that pop into my head are:

Kill Fist.
Kill the Rachni Queen.
Kill Balak.
Killing Shiala (Feros asari)
Let the Destiny Ascension be destroyed.
Allow Cerberus to debrief Veetor.
Allow Garrus to kill Sidonus.
Destroy the Genophage Cure.
The interrogation of Elias Kellum.
Killing the Eclipse merc during Samara's recruitment mission.
Destroying the Heretic Geth.
Keeping the Collector Base.

I think this is a pretty good list except the "killing Shiala" point.

Modifié par Roxy12, 24 août 2011 - 08:40 .

[SandTrout]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Could the Batarians have been prevented from acquiring the missle base? (putting the N7 base at fault for not defending well enough?)

The Alliance has responsibility for securing such assets, so some blame does fall to them for allowing the facility to be used against what it was intended to protect. Note that this does not remove any fault from the Batarians, it simply adds people that should be reprimanded without sharing the weight of any other responsible parties..

[SandTrout]

Roxy12 wrote...

I think this is a pretty good list except the "killing Shiala" point.

Admitted agent for the enemy, regardless of potential 'rehabilitation'. Even if you assume Indoctrination, it is irreversible as far as we know, and the subject could 'relapse' into enemy control.

Reasonable analysis could conclude too great a risk for no real reward besides a clear conscience. During wartime, traitors and spies are executed, and a trial is not really necessary to determine guilt, as a confession has already been volunteered.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

SandTrout wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Could the Batarians have been prevented from acquiring the missle base? (putting the N7 base at fault for not defending well enough?)

The Alliance has responsibility for securing such assets, so some blame does fall to them for allowing the facility to be used against what it was intended to protect. Note that this does not remove any fault from the Batarians, it simply adds people that should be reprimanded without sharing the weight of any other responsible parties..

Coolness, good answers.

So it's not really the operation itself that's the main culprit, but the force that goes in and screws things up.  For the N7 missles, it was the Batarians.  For Grayson, it was Anderson/Turians.  For Teltin, it was the rogue members.  For Overlord, it was Archer.  If the Collector Base is destroyed against TIM's wishes, it's Shepard's fault that the base got that way.

While not a saint, I find those kind of things really shows the limits of what TIM/Cerberus can do and what he can truly take responsibility for.  I don't think any group would make a point of screwing up on purpose... that seems to all happen at the ground level.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Wrong. It's the most logical decision in the entire game.
Destroying the base is the stupidest decision in both games.

I'm gonna make this short.

Cerberus' track record with R&D cannot be ignored,and the decision is whether or not you want to hold Cerberus' hand in ME3, most people don't want to have to keep checking in on Lex and his goonies to make sure something apocalyptic doesn't happen,blowing the base up is just as logical as keeping it.


But this will obviously soar over your head,because it makes sense.

a) Cerberus track record isn't nearly as bad as you think it is
it is ultimately of little importance. Given the base to Cerberus is better than destroying it. Giving it to Hitler is better than destroying it. Given it to the offspring of Dark Lord Sauron and Cruella De Ville is better than destroying it. Giving it to Dr. Doom is better than destroying it.
c) nothing that can probably come out of it can be as apocalyptic as what we KNOW we'll have to face with 100% certanty (reapers). Even if there's only 10% chance of something usefull coming out of hte base, ti's worth it.

But this will obviously soar over your head,because it makes much more sense.

[SandTrout]

While not a saint, I find those kind of things really shows the limits of what TIM/Cerberus can do and what he can truly take responsibility for. I don't think any group would make a point of screwing up on purpose... that seems to all happen at the ground level.

We appear to be in agreement, then. And while TIM still holds responsibilities for the failures that he funded, he also is due the credit for the successes that he enabled.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

TIM always seems to find out things are going sour,and then becoming completely incompetent in stopping it, it's as much his fault for repeatedly overextending his reach past his grasp as the parties involved in the muck up.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Blowing up the base a is an irrational, stupid, self-destructive, fearful course of action. It is not logical. As I've just demonstrated Cerberus' track record is fine. You need to study Reaper tech.

And most of the things you showed hinged on Shepards timely arrival or intervention.

Once again, most people don't want to baby-sit.

Most people don't want to baby-sit the galaxy, yet it clearly won't save itself without Shepard.

[Asari_Party]

SandTrout wrote...

Roxy12 wrote...

I think this is a pretty good list except the "killing Shiala" point.

Admitted agent for the enemy, regardless of potential 'rehabilitation'. Even if you assume Indoctrination, it is irreversible as far as we know, and the subject could 'relapse' into enemy control.

Reasonable analysis could conclude too great a risk for no real reward besides a clear conscience. During wartime, traitors and spies are executed, and a trial is not really necessary to determine guilt, as a confession has already been volunteered.

Ok, you don't believe in the right to a fair trial or the principle innocent until proven guilty, I get it. But that doesn't make the decision realistic - just downright evil.

[SandTrout]

Lotion and Humanoid, you two are off on a tangent that has already been discussed to death with both of you present. So cut the crap or reroute this to the Den of Deden's Delusions.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Wrong. It's the most logical decision in the entire game.
Destroying the base is the stupidest decision in both games.

I'm gonna make this short.

Cerberus' track record with R&D cannot be ignored,and the decision is whether or not you want to hold Cerberus' hand in ME3, most people don't want to have to keep checking in on Lex and his goonies to make sure something apocalyptic doesn't happen,blowing the base up is just as logical as keeping it.


But this will obviously soar over your head,because it makes sense.

a) Cerberus track record isn't nearly as bad as you think it is
it is ultimately of little importance. Given the base to Cerberus is better than destroying it. Giving it to Hitler is better than destroying it. Given it to the offspring of Dark Lord Sauron and Cruella De Ville is better than destroying it. Giving it to Dr. Doom is better than destroying it.
c) nothing that can probably come out of it can be as apocalyptic as what we KNOW we'll have to face with 100% certanty (reapers). Even if there's only 10% chance of something usefull coming out of hte base, ti's worth it.

But this will obviously soar over your head,because it makes much more sense.

Ah,as predicted,it went over your head and you started started babbling again,carry on.

I'm not willing to spend the time or energy playing watchdog on the project to be ready to blow it up at a moments notice as you suggest, those resources would be better used somewhere else,anywhere else,it may be worth it to you,but not to alot of others.


I suppose you're right trout..but I'm not much up for playing racquetball right now,guess I'll stop feeing the troll.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 24 août 2011 - 09:02 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

TIM always seems to find out things are going sour,and then becoming completely incompetent in stopping it, it's as much his fault for repeatedly overextending his reach past his grasp as the parties involved in the muck up.

TIM does need better "Plan Bs" lol.  But like Sandtrout stated, if you're going to credit those results to TIM, then all of the other results (like virtually anything Shepard does from this point on, lol) go to TIM and Cerberus too.  You could even view Shepard as TIM's ultimate problem solver.  May still come close at times, but places like Overlord were contained.

I still personally wouldn't side with it... but I also feel that (as has been said), Cerberus isn't as bad as they're reputed to be (though now they're really screwing that up with ME3's premise).

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 24 août 2011 - 09:01 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Wrong. It's the most logical decision in the entire game.
Destroying the base is the stupidest decision in both games.

I'm gonna make this short.

Cerberus' track record with R&D cannot be ignored,and the decision is whether or not you want to hold Cerberus' hand in ME3, most people don't want to have to keep checking in on Lex and his goonies to make sure something apocalyptic doesn't happen,blowing the base up is just as logical as keeping it.


But this will obviously soar over your head,because it makes sense.

a) Cerberus track record isn't nearly as bad as you think it is
it is ultimately of little importance. Given the base to Cerberus is better than destroying it. Giving it to Hitler is better than destroying it. Given it to the offspring of Dark Lord Sauron and Cruella De Ville is better than destroying it. Giving it to Dr. Doom is better than destroying it.
c) nothing that can probably come out of it can be as apocalyptic as what we KNOW we'll have to face with 100% certanty (reapers). Even if there's only 10% chance of something usefull coming out of hte base, ti's worth it.

But this will obviously soar over your head,because it makes much more sense.

Ah,as predicted,it went over your head and you started started babbling again,carry on.

I'm not willing to spend the time or energy playing watchdog on the project to be ready to blow it up at a moments notice as you suggest, those resources would be better used somewhere else,anywhere else,it may be worth it to you,but not to alot of others.

Better use of those resources? That's a laugh.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

TIM always seems to find out things are going sour,and then becoming completely incompetent in stopping it, it's as much his fault for repeatedly overextending his reach past his grasp as the parties involved in the muck up.

TIM does need better "Plan Bs" lol.  But like Sandtrout stated, if you're going to credit those results to TIM, then all of the other results (like virtually anything Shepard does from this point on, lol) go to TIM and Cerberus too.  You could even view Shepard as TIM's ultimate problem solver.  May still come close at times, but places like Overlord were contained.

I still personally wouldn't side with it... but I also feel that (as has been said), Cerberus isn't as bad as they're reputed to be (though now they're really screwing that up with ME3's premise).

I've never claimed them to be evil or to be the "bad guys" , It just got rather tiresome playing janitor.

Any misconception about them being complete failures or incompetent is just because that's how they have allowed themselves to be seen,at least as far as R&D is concerned,they have proven to be quite good at counter-intel,assassination,subversion, crap like that.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 24 août 2011 - 09:07 .

[SandTrout]

Roxy12 wrote...

Ok, you don't believe in the right to a fair trial or the principle innocent until proven guilty, I get it.

Incorrect. I absolutely do believe in a system of fair trial being required for a government to declare guilt. More to the point, a confession was provided in a manner that removed all doubt of the individual's involvement. Even in the most generous court systems, a confession freely given negates the need for a trial for anything other than procedure. A Renegade could realistically take the stance of saving everyone a lot of time and money and short-cutting the formal justice system.

But that doesn't make the decision realistic - just downright evil.

Incorrect. It is a difference of opinion regarding the appropriate application of justice. There is no doubt in her involvement with Saren, and what mitigating circumstances may exists also place her as a potential real strategic threat. The reason that the right to a fair trial is codified in western culture is to prevent abuse by corrupt government officials. If you believe that you are acting within allowable moral bounds, and not abusing the position for your own gain, then the act of subverting a system designed to prevent abuse is not evil in an of itself.

Also, if you really believed that the subverting of government procedural rights is inherently evil, then you also, by default, believe that the Spectres are inherently evil, as their entire purpose is to act independent of systematic government.

Note: I am not endorsing people to act outside or against the law. I am pointing out that it would be a realistic mindset for a Renegade.

Modifié par SandTrout, 24 août 2011 - 09:08 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Paragons also, every Shepard steals the Normandy in the first game.  Laws are for the people, not the people for the laws.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 24 août 2011 - 09:10 .

[SandTrout]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Paragons also, every Shepard steals the Normandy in the first game.  Laws are for the people, not the people for the laws.

Well put.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

I didn't understand what he was saying until I put also in front of paragons...

[Seboist]

SandTrout wrote...

On topic, the most obviously realistic Renegade choices that pop into my head are:

Kill Fist.
Kill the Rachni Queen.
Kill Balak.
Killing Shiala (Feros asari)
Let the Destiny Ascension be destroyed.
Allow Cerberus to debrief Veetor.
Allow Garrus to kill Sidonus.
Destroy the Genophage Cure.
The interrogation of Elias Kellum.
Killing the Eclipse merc during Samara's recruitment mission.
Destroying the Heretic Geth.
Keeping the Collector Base.

I don't know about that one. Even if one's Shepard has no desire to cure the Krogans they're destroying a potential leverage tool.

That's a good example of a "Paragon" choice that can be made with "Renegade" intent and another illustration of why the karma system is so flawed....

[Seboist]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Paragons also, every Shepard steals the Normandy in the first game.  Laws are for the people, not the people for the laws.

Yep.even a pure Paragon is a grey character. They knowingly serve in a brutal secret police force of an alien racial caste system.

[SandTrout]

Seboist wrote...

SandTrout wrote...
...
Destroy the Genophage Cure.
...

I don't know about that one. Even if one's Shepard has no desire to cure the Krogans they're destroying a potential leverage tool.

That's a good example of a "Paragon" choice that can be made with "Renegade" intent and another illustration of why the karma system is so flawed....

It remains an issue where one might consider the cure, even if used with appropriate intent, a greater threat than the possible boon of leverage. In this case, I actually consider both options to be realistic.

[Wulfram]

Killing Fist is particularly foolish, because it's murder and you don't have Spectre status to protect you from potential prosecution.