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[Killjoy Cutter]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Better to be subservient to a master than dead.

Not really. 

[Fata Morgana]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Better to be subservient to a master than dead.

Not really. 

Live free or die.

[Sundance31us]

Fata Morgana wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...
Better to be subservient to a master than dead.

Not really. 

Live free or die.

Indeed.

[CaptainZaysh]

Fata Morgana wrote...

Live free or die.

That's awesome but in a way isn't living eternally in a digital utopia at one with all of humanity actually kind of more free than our current state?

Like Candidate said upthread...the species that become Reapers apparently seem to really like it once they're there.

[Weskerr]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Cut text recovered from the bowels of ME2:

It was lonely. It called to us.
It wanted to remember. The Masters had been gone so long.
The Masters were lost when it was shattered.
Currents swept through their inner worlds. They were turned to noise. Babble.
The worlds were empty. But the body lived. It lay fallow.
The heart pumped. The lungs breathed. But the mind forgot the Masters.
It called and They did not answer.
We have become an echo of Their echo.
We have become more than we were.
Join us. Know us. Remember all our lives.
We are no longer afraid.
You would never be lonely again.
We are not your enemy. We only wish to share ourselves.
We can join them. We can be like them.
We can reach the end of evolution.
Do not fear. It is wonderful to be us. We understand ourselves.
You cannot defeat them. They will lead us into eternity.
If you could only see how we see. Know what we've learned.
They were called imshai. Those who lived here before.
Reaper. One. A mechanical device used to cut ripened grain. Two. One who gathers a harvest.
Harvest. One. The consequence of an event or series of events. Two. The yield of a growing season. Three. To gather.
Shepard. They know you. They wish you to understand. They are shepherds, too.

Firstly: I can't believe this was cut.  It's beautiful.

Secondly.  What's your interpretation of this?

After reading through this, I suspect that the Heretic Geth were meant to say this to Shepard. If true, it sounds like they're explaining that the Reapers had masters, but then those masters disappeared, and they could no longer communicate with them. "The worlds were empty. But the body lived. It lay fallow." That sounds to me like the masters probably integrated themselves with the first Reaper.
It makes sense that the Heretic Geth were meant to say this because they would probably have learned from the Reapers that those masters "were called Imshai." Also, it is true that the Reapers contacted the Geth first ("It called to us") - "It" being the Reapers and "us" being the Geth. What is said is also in line with the Heretic's belief that the Reapers will help them evolve ("They will lead us into eternity").. When the word "reaper" and "harvest" are defined, it sounds exactly like how Legion would define something (first state the word to be defined and then define it). And don't forget "Do not fear. It is wonderful to be us. We understand each other" sounds exactly like something the Geth (whether Heretic or True) would say.

[Killjoy Cutter]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Fata Morgana wrote...

Live free or die.

That's awesome but in a way isn't living eternally in a digital utopia at one with all of humanity actually kind of more free than our current state?

Like Candidate said upthread...the species that become Reapers apparently seem to really like it once they're there.

They probably don't have a choice, they're probably made to like it as part of the process. 

Or to put it more crudely, an orgasm doesn't mean it wasn't rape. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Fata Morgana wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Better to be subservient to a master than dead.

Not really. 

Live free or die.

Live, and you can be free again in the future... and take revenge against those who would take your freedom.

The dead can do neither.

[Dean_the_Young]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Fata Morgana wrote...

Live free or die.

That's awesome but in a way isn't living eternally in a digital utopia at one with all of humanity actually kind of more free than our current state?

Like Candidate said upthread...the species that become Reapers apparently seem to really like it once they're there.

They probably don't have a choice, they're probably made to like it as part of the process. 

Or to put it more crudely, an orgasm doesn't mean it wasn't rape. 

Conversion always bears comparisons to rape until one experiences it

[Sundance31us]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Conversion always bears comparisons to rape until one experiences it

Having had personal experience with a cult, I disagree with you.

[CaptainZaysh]

Sundance31us wrote...

Having had personal experience with a cult, I disagree with you.

Did you keep the haircut?

[Killjoy Cutter]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Fata Morgana wrote...

Live free or die.

That's awesome but in a way isn't living eternally in a digital utopia at one with all of humanity actually kind of more free than our current state?

Like Candidate said upthread...the species that become Reapers apparently seem to really like it once they're there.

They probably don't have a choice, they're probably made to like it as part of the process. 

Or to put it more crudely, an orgasm doesn't mean it wasn't rape. 

Conversion always bears comparisons to rape until one experiences it

When did you experience being converted into biogoo and made part of the collective consciousness inside a Reaper? 

PS:  I would consider being made one with all of humanity a major drawback of anything, including eternity.  As for utopia... it's nowhere. 

[Sundance31us]

CaptainZaysh wrote...
Did you keep the haircut?

They didn't have haircuts. The leader was on a personal power trip and created a cult to feed his pedophilia.

[Dean_the_Young]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Fata Morgana wrote...

Live free or die.

That's awesome but in a way isn't living eternally in a digital utopia at one with all of humanity actually kind of more free than our current state?

Like Candidate said upthread...the species that become Reapers apparently seem to really like it once they're there.

They probably don't have a choice, they're probably made to like it as part of the process. 

Or to put it more crudely, an orgasm doesn't mean it wasn't rape. 

Conversion always bears comparisons to rape until one experiences it

When did you experience being converted into biogoo and made part of the collective consciousness inside a Reaper? 

I haven't... but then, neither have you. But you're the one who's comparing it to rape.

I was specifically referring to your claim that new Reapers are 'forced' to agree with it, a claim you have no backing for as of yet.

PS:  I would consider being made one with all of humanity a major drawback of anything, including eternity.  As for utopia... it's nowhere. 

Don't diss the singularity until you've experienced it. How many people want to go back to life before the internet?

[Fata Morgana]

The theory I like best (and one I had thought of before) is the suggestion that the Reapers once had creators - masters- that are now gone. And this cut line makes me wonder if longing for the lost masters is what drove the ships to create more Reapers. Thier thinking: If only our masters had become like us, they need not have died.

Now that doesn't explain where the first reapers came from. Perhaps the reapers were created as a result of a war (I'm looking at that 37mil year old weapon and the dead reaper as part of that war, maybe). Some citizens of one civilization volunteered themselves to become part of the ultimate warship so that that civilization could survive the war and defeat the other side. And perhaps they did defeat the other side. But the survivors didn't last long on the war-ravaged planet, and so only the reapers were left in the end. To save other civilizations from this cruel fate, they decided to harvest others and make more reapers.

And perhaps the people inside the reaper are happy, but in my opinion part of what keeps a reaper together is indoctrination. It's the last vestige of master control, no longer needed now that there are no masters. It's what kept the reapers from rebelling or killing themselves over what they were. They think they're happy and that they're existence is preferable because they're essentially "drugged" to think so.

Modifié par Fata Morgana, 24 août 2011 - 08:48 .

[Shotokanguy]

Those are cool thoughts, but if you connect the dots, it's not really any sort of information that can shed light on anything.

There have been numerous references already to the Reaper's harvested races being uplifted into a new state of existence. Transcendence. The processing of the humans in the Collector base into pure genetic material, mixed together in the creation of one Reaper...Sovereign calling each Reaper a "nation"...there's this theme throughout both games so far dealing with some sort of philosophical oneness that comes as a natural result of the Reaper's cycle.

It's one of the more interesting things, really.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Fata Morgana wrote...

Live free or die.

That's awesome but in a way isn't living eternally in a digital utopia at one with all of humanity actually kind of more free than our current state?

Like Candidate said upthread...the species that become Reapers apparently seem to really like it once they're there.

They probably don't have a choice, they're probably made to like it as part of the process. 

Or to put it more crudely, an orgasm doesn't mean it wasn't rape. 

Conversion always bears comparisons to rape until one experiences it

When did you experience being converted into biogoo and made part of the collective consciousness inside a Reaper? 

I haven't... but then, neither have you. But you're the one who's comparing it to rape.

I was specifically referring to your claim that new Reapers are 'forced' to agree with it, a claim you have no backing for as of yet.

PS:  I would consider being made one with all of humanity a major drawback of anything, including eternity.  As for utopia... it's nowhere. 

Don't diss the singularity until you've experienced it. How many people want to go back to life before the internet?

On the first issue, the comparison is between two intense and life-changing acts being forced upon someone against their will, robbing them of control over their own self. 

On the second issue, that's why I said "probably". 

On the singularity, I have no interest in The Rapture for Nerds. 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 24 août 2011 - 08:49 .

[Someone With Mass]

Arcian wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Don't sacrifice everything for the sake of petty freedoms!

Only spineless vermin and children fear death.

Soldiers which were forged in the heat of battle thrive around the smell of death and carnage.

[Fata Morgana]

This is kind of a difficult conversation to have, because I think whether one is willing to die for a cause is HIGHLY dependant on whether one believes there is an afterlife.

I happen to believe in a soul and afterlife, and as such death is a paltry thing as compared to having to live forever in this flawed world, especially as part of some monstrous killing machine (even if it thinks it's murder is justified). I would much rather die.

[RocketManSR2]

I wonder, what ancient civilization did we destroy when we blew up Nazara? I know we'll never know, but now that species is truly dead. Kind of sad if that's the case.

[ADLegend21]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Cut text recovered from the bowels of ME2:

It was lonely. It called to us.
It wanted to remember. The Masters had been gone so long.
The Masters were lost when it was shattered.
Currents swept through their inner worlds. They were turned to noise. Babble.
The worlds were empty. But the body lived. It lay fallow.
The heart pumped. The lungs breathed. But the mind forgot the Masters.
It called and They did not answer.
We have become an echo of Their echo.
We have become more than we were.
Join us. Know us. Remember all our lives.
We are no longer afraid.
You would never be lonely again.
We are not your enemy. We only wish to share ourselves.
We can join them. We can be like them.
We can reach the end of evolution.
Do not fear. It is wonderful to be us. We understand ourselves.
You cannot defeat them. They will lead us into eternity.
If you could only see how we see. Know what we've learned.
They were called imshai. Those who lived here before.
Reaper. One. A mechanical device used to cut ripened grain. Two. One who gathers a harvest.
Harvest. One. The consequence of an event or series of events. Two. The yield of a growing season. Three. To gather.
Shepard. They know you. They wish you to understand. They are shepherds, too.

Firstly: I can't believe this was cut.  It's beautiful.

Secondly.  What's your interpretation of this?

That would have been great for the Collector General to say if he was the boss before the human reaper.

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Says the man unwilling to submit to the Reapers. Says the man desperately clinging to his physical form, his life, his existence, like a child clinging to its mother's leg.

It is a sign of strength, to cry out against fate. Rather than to bow one's head and succumb.