395 réponses à ce sujet

[Dionkey]

 So as I was mowing my lawn today, I stopped to think about something. All this grass is probably home to many insects and such. Daily, we kill 1000's of lifeforms by simply doing what we need to do. I mean, the majority of us assume that we are vastly superior to the majority of other organisms out there. So I ask; what makes us different from the Reapers?



I think this is a great image to examine for this argument considering the human mind cannot comprehend infinity. Is it possible that we just live in the cell of an even bigger organism? Is it possible that our brain cells house other universes within them? If so, is life insignificant altogether? These questions need to be asked when determining if the Reapers are worse than us. If anything, the Reapers are trying to get by just like we are; survival of the fittest, if you want to put it that way. They need us to reproduce just like we need to consume the many organisms that provide nutrients for our bodies to continue functioning.

I am curious to your take on this. I set up a poll (here : http://social.biowar...71/polls/23775/) for quick answers, but I would love any written answers as well.

Modifié par Dionkey, 24 août 2011 - 07:06 .

[Dionkey]

Arcian wrote...

No, the Reapers are not evil. They are not driven by cruelty or spite. Their motivations are much more benevolent, at least from their perspective.

We are to them what animals are to us. Some animals become our trusted companions; others are killed or ignored because they lack the qualities we want or because they pose a threat to us. Others are hunted for their resources.

Some animals choose to bend beneath the will of a master. Others fight for their freedom, til death if needed.

Sound familiar?

Yet if we were to overthrown and enslaved by animals, we would think of them as monsters. The hypocrisy of humans is quite astounding.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Many evil people believe they are doing the right thing.

As for animals... yeah.  Might apply to any animals that are actually sapient. 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 24 août 2011 - 06:28 .

[HelloM190188]

I believe context would help determining what action is evil and which is not. After all, there are no evil beings just evil actions. Now taking this into account we can assume that the Reapers would consider the destruction of organic life as an action that is worth recognition and not malignant at all. So the Reapers are neither evil nor good until it is determined under which scope we should look through. Perspective, to my belief, is vital to determining the value of the action taken.

[VaultingFrog]

I dont think that any being out there thinks itself as evil. The "victims" or "recipients of the consiquences" would view them as evil however. It is purely a matter of perspective.

[Wereparrot]

Arcian wrote...

We are to them what animals are to us. Some animals become our trusted companions; others are killed or ignored because they lack the qualities we want or because they pose a threat to us. Others are hunted for their resources.

Humans do not massacre animals every few years like the reapers massacre sentient life. Sure some species have been hunted to extinction, but not as a result of an annual extinction cycle. We dominate animals, but we do not play God as far as pre-ordained, systematic and regular extinction cycles are concerned. It would appear that this is exactly what the reapers do, so in this there is a big difference.

[Aipex8]

I really think that Haestrom's sun is the clue. The use of eezo and mass effect drives "polutes" star systems and causes them to die. For this reason the Reapers cull just the technologically advanced, spacefaring civilizations so that other life will continue to flourish and advance. The fact that the Reapers may use this culling as a way to reproduce (apparently this isn't always the case... Protheans weren't worthy, but but Humans are) is NOT the main purpose. The real reason is one of conservation. To make sure the galaxy is fertile and able produce life. This also explains why the Reapers reside in dark space, where their massive mass effect cores won't cause damage to any stars.

Seen in this way, you can't really say that the Reapers' actions are evil. Obviously they aren't ideal for the spacefaring races that have to be culled, but on the larger scale what they are doing can be seen as good. I also think this scenario will give the game a variety of ambiguous endings. When you find this out, you may question whether defeating the Reapers is the right thing to do. And if you do come to that conclusion, are you really just indoctrinated. If the Reapers are defeated it may mean that the current races will live in a quickly dying galaxy that won't be able to produce more advanced species in the future.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

The Reapers certainly don't think they are evil.

[TheOptimist]

From the perspective of the people they're attacking with no justification, yes, yes they are. 

[Reptillius]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Many evil people believe they are doing the right thing.

As for animals... yeah.  Might apply to any animals that are actually sapient. 

This is a dangerous direction to take an argument because those that study various animals could easily tell you that many animals use a lot more common sense towards each other, their disputes, and their environment than most humans do.

[AquamanOS]

Yeah. Generally people thinking of themselves as evil is a sign of bad writing, as if you didn't think you were doing the right thing, you wouldn't be doing it, so the "Mwahahaha I'm evil!" characters aren't remotely like any actual person would behave.

The Reapers certainly have dark personalities with many traits most people would consider negative, or at least the two we've met. They get their way through lies and mind control, and are arrogant and pig headed to the point of absurdity, where even as their entire plan was ruined 3 times they still act like it's no big deal.

But until we know what the reason for their goal is, it's hard to say. If it's necessery because it will cause harm to the universe if civilization rises unchecked, or if they are just slaughtering all the species to take things for themselves. Or if they are just doing because they can.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Aipex8 wrote...

I really think that Haestrom's sun is the clue. The use of eezo and mass effect drives "polutes" star systems and causes them to die. For this reason the Reapers cull just the technologically advanced, spacefaring civilizations so that other life will continue to flourish and advance. The fact that the Reapers may use this culling as a way to reproduce (apparently this isn't always the case... Protheans weren't worthy, but but Humans are) is NOT the main purpose. The real reason is one of conservation. To make sure the galaxy is fertile and able produce life. This also explains why the Reapers reside in dark space, where their massive mass effect cores won't cause damage to any stars.

Seen in this way, you can't really say that the Reapers' actions are evil. Obviously they aren't ideal for the spacefaring races that have to be culled, but on the larger scale what they are doing can be seen as good. I also think this scenario will give the game a variety of ambiguous endings. When you find this out, you may question whether defeating the Reapers is the right thing to do. And if you do come to that conclusion, are you really just indoctrinated. If the Reapers are defeated it may mean that the current races will live in a quickly dying galaxy that won't be able to produce more advanced species in the future.

I've thought of this as a possible "twist", and it's one of the reasons I hesitate to pre-order ME3.  I won't have anything to do with such a "post-modern" hipster story "twist" cliche.  I won't have anything to do with an ending that attempts to make the Reapers good or sympathetic or "correct" in any way. 

[HTTP 404]

there is no evil. Is it evil for humans to harvest crops for consumption?

[Reptillius]

Aipex8 wrote...

I really think that Haestrom's sun is the clue. The use of eezo and mass effect drives "polutes" star systems and causes them to die. For this reason the Reapers cull just the technologically advanced, spacefaring civilizations so that other life will continue to flourish and advance. The fact that the Reapers may use this culling as a way to reproduce (apparently this isn't always the case... Protheans weren't worthy, but but Humans are) is NOT the main purpose. The real reason is one of conservation. To make sure the galaxy is fertile and able produce life. This also explains why the Reapers reside in dark space, where their massive mass effect cores won't cause damage to any stars.

The problem with this theory is that Haestrom's sun was likely done artificially for one thing.

The second thing would be that there hasn't been an EEZO using civilization on Haestrom in about 300 years.

Third thing to consider is that if this were true there would be other star systems suffering from this collapse first. Primarily the asari homework which is heavily traffic'd with many vessels and is also a very heavily eezo rich environment all on it's own.

So in short if this was a case Haestrom is not the clue for it. Haestrom is the clue for something else if they tie up that loose end.

And as a side note.  It was not that the Protheans were not worthy. It is because of the fact that for whatever reason the Prothean Reaper failed when they tried to make it.

Modifié par Reptillius, 24 août 2011 - 07:09 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Reptillius wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Many evil people believe they are doing the right thing.

As for animals... yeah.  Might apply to any animals that are actually sapient. 

This is a dangerous direction to take an argument because those that study various animals could easily tell you that many animals use a lot more common sense towards each other, their disputes, and their environment than most humans do.

My, such an idyllic, naive view of nature... 

[Killjoy Cutter]

HTTP 404 wrote...

there is no evil. Is it evil for humans to harvest crops for consumption?

Crops aren't thinking, feeling beings.

[Reptillius]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Reptillius wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Many evil people believe they are doing the right thing.

As for animals... yeah.  Might apply to any animals that are actually sapient. 

This is a dangerous direction to take an argument because those that study various animals could easily tell you that many animals use a lot more common sense towards each other, their disputes, and their environment than most humans do.

My, such an idyllic, naive view of nature... 

It's not idyllic. It's practical.  For that Matter. It's not Naive either. Naive implies that I am clueless about these things.

Modifié par Reptillius, 24 août 2011 - 07:10 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The Reapers cannot make moral judgments. They are machines with a ton of programming. They obey their programming. So they don't think they're evil, or good. They just are. And we must destroy them for our survival. Everything else is irrelevant.

The other thing is that eventually all the stars in the universe will burn out and it will be dark. Period. We are in the "Age of Stars" right now. So it's going to happen regardless.

Haestrom's sun is a hint as to what is going on. I hardly think a break in the cycles every 50,000 yrs would save the stars, though. If they did, why do the mass relays exist in the first place? No, they're there for the Reapers so that organics develop technology along the lines they desire to make harvesting easier.

Remember: To Serve Man is a cookbook.

[KnightofPhoenix]

No they are not, but I reject the word "evil" entirely.

[Reptillius]

Arcian wrote...

Reptillius wrote...

And as a side note.  It was not that the Protheans were not worthy. It is because of the fact that for whatever reason the Prothean Reaper failed when they tried to make it.

If you're right, that begs the question: who or what stopped them?

why it failed is a $64k Question I've been wanting answered for some time now but I'm not sure that this particular one will get answered just because all of those details are now lost most likely the way the game is written...

Unless they tie it into the sphere quests from ME1 and ME2 I guess.