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[Killjoy Cutter]

VaultingFrog wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

How is that trolling?

Because no one could seriously claim the moral high ground for a horde of giant parastic monster-ships bent on endless galactic genocide.

Morality is pure perspective nothing more. From our view point the Reapers seem "evil" (term used to give voice to a perspective). From their point of view humanity and or the rest of the galaxy could be evil. I wouldnt know as I am not a Reaper.

This thread originally started out as an attempt to argue perspective with incomplete data. Nobody knows a Reapers perspective because nobody is a Reaper. Just like you can not argue about what your mother percieves as it is her perceptions on events, even though yours are completely different on the same event. Nobody is wrong in this matter.

Some things are just wrong.   There is no "perspective" when it comes to what the Reapers have done and plan to do again.  Mass murder.  Genocide.   Kidnapping.   Experimenting on thinking beings against their will.  Something akin to rape.  Etc. 

[xentar]

Of course not, there is no such thing as objective evil, the term simply doesn't apply to them.

[Dionkey]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

How is that trolling?

Because no one could seriously claim the moral high ground for a horde of giant parastic monster-ships bent on endless galactic genocide.

The Reapers have been doing this for so long morality is not a factor any more. Listen, if there is any mental state left after people are assmilated into Reapers then I am sure it would have been broken down to the point where this is nothing more than a cycle. Do humans need to kill livestock? Nope. They could live off entirely veggies, fruits, grain, and nuts. Not that I am a vegetaraian myself, but it is completely unnecessary. We only eat meat because it tastes good and is a fast track for protein and fat. Why should the Reapers treat us like anything but cattle for slaughter? I am not saying you shouldn't fight the Reapers, but I am saying they don't owe you anything more than the chance to fight them.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Dionkey wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

How is that trolling?

Because no one could seriously claim the moral high ground for a horde of giant parastic monster-ships bent on endless galactic genocide.

The Reapers have been doing this for so long morality is not a factor any more. Listen, if there is any mental state left after people are assmilated into Reapers then I am sure it would have been broken down to the point where this is nothing more than a cycle. Do humans need to kill livestock? Nope. They could live off entirely veggies, fruits, grain, and nuts. Not that I am a vegetaraian myself, but it is completely unnecessary. We only eat meat because it tastes good and is a fast track for protein and fat. Why should the Reapers treat us like anything but cattle for slaughter? I am not saying you shouldn't fight the Reapers, but I am saying they don't owe you anything more than the chance to fight them.

It takes a lot of additional effort and care to get a full balance of amino acids on a purely vegan diet.  

As for the Reapers, there's every reason for one thinking being to not view another thinking being as cattle for slaughter.  Or are you going to claim that canibalism is perfectly acceptable?

[Dionkey]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
It takes a lot of additional effort and care to get a full balance of amino acids on a purely vegan diet.  

As for the Reapers, there's every reason for one thinking being to not view another thinking being as cattle for slaughter.  Or are you going to claim that canibalism is perfectly acceptable?

But it is POSSIBLE. The Reapers do not need to reproduce all the time, but they do. In reality, humans are no different from the Reapers, you just like to think so. I have just settled with the fact. Sentience is the killer of civilizations, because once you can think outside-the-box, you already have trouble coming your way.

Modifié par Dionkey, 25 août 2011 - 06:30 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Dionkey wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
It takes a lot of additional effort and care to get a full balance of amino acids on a purely vegan diet.  

As for the Reapers, there's every reason for one thinking being to not view another thinking being as cattle for slaughter.  Or are you going to claim that canibalism is perfectly acceptable?

But it is POSSIBLE. The Reapers do not need to reproduce all the time, but they do. In reality, humans are no different from the Reapers, you just like to think so. I have just settled with the fact. Sentience is the killer of civilizations, because once you can think outside-the-box, you already have trouble coming your way.

And when humans do the sorts of things the Reapers are up to, they're wrong too. 

And no, farming and hunting are not anything like what the Reapers are up to.   The Reapers are up to mass murder, mass torture, mass kidnapping, mass genocide, mass rape (of a sort), and so on. 

[VaultingFrog]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

VaultingFrog wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

How is that trolling?

Because no one could seriously claim the moral high ground for a horde of giant parastic monster-ships bent on endless galactic genocide.

Morality is pure perspective nothing more. From our view point the Reapers seem "evil" (term used to give voice to a perspective). From their point of view humanity and or the rest of the galaxy could be evil. I wouldnt know as I am not a Reaper.

This thread originally started out as an attempt to argue perspective with incomplete data. Nobody knows a Reapers perspective because nobody is a Reaper. Just like you can not argue about what your mother percieves as it is her perceptions on events, even though yours are completely different on the same event. Nobody is wrong in this matter.

Some things are just wrong.   There is no "perspective" when it comes to what the Reapers have done and plan to do again.  Mass murder.  Genocide.   Kidnapping.   Experimenting on thinking beings against their will.  Something akin to rape.  Etc. 

There is a problem with that though, you are looking through only one perspective, that of a human. The Reapers believe that what they are doing is not our distruction but our salvation. Harbinger says so. From their perspective they are taking the right course of action.

To a terrorist it is moral and just to sacrifice themselves to kill as many "unbelievers" or "others of different believes and lifestyles" (not trying to target religious fanatics here but all terrorists in general). It might not be moral to us as we are on the other end but they seriously believe they are doing the right thing. How can you say that you have a moral high ground when their morals are simply different than yours? That is plain arrogence.

Now I am not saying I support the acts of terrorists, because I abhore them. I am only saying that in their mind they think they are in the right. In my eyes there are acts that should never be done, but in theirs they have a different view on those same things.

What you are attempting to do is force everybody onto the same moralities you have set up for yourself and invalidate personal choices and free will. Similar to the Reapers I would suppose, however they are still different.

They dont believe they are taking away our free will (from what I can tell) as each Reaper is millions upon millions of lives communing together in one body, much like the Geth. That still shows individuality in a way, but they drew the conclusion that other life must be saved in this manor because they see no other way. That is a fault on their part, but one that any being can make.

[Dionkey]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
It takes a lot of additional effort and care to get a full balance of amino acids on a purely vegan diet.  

As for the Reapers, there's every reason for one thinking being to not view another thinking being as cattle for slaughter.  Or are you going to claim that canibalism is perfectly acceptable?

But it is POSSIBLE. The Reapers do not need to reproduce all the time, but they do. In reality, humans are no different from the Reapers, you just like to think so. I have just settled with the fact. Sentience is the killer of civilizations, because once you can think outside-the-box, you already have trouble coming your way.

And when humans do the sorts of things the Reapers are up to, they're wrong too. 

And no, farming and hunting are not anything like what the Reapers are up to.   The Reapers are up to mass murder, mass torture, mass kidnapping, mass genocide, mass rape (of a sort), and so on. 

They only do three of those, and they don't even see that in their eyes. They kidnap the people, destroy/kill the armies and then assmilate them all. Torture is only applicable to the protheans considering they augmented their bodies. So humans are all evil? Why don't we just commit mass suicide? If you were truly against this kind of evil, you would grab a gun and go take down anyone doing it, just like Shepard. Don't try to sound so righteous just because you can't accept the reality of this.

There is nothing evil about it, simply survival of the fittest.

[Killjoy Cutter]

VaultingFrog wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Some things are just wrong.   There is no "perspective" when it comes to what the Reapers have done and plan to do again.  Mass murder.  Genocide.   Kidnapping.   Experimenting on thinking beings against their will.  Something akin to rape.  Etc. 

There is a problem with that though, you are looking through only one perspective, that of a human. The Reapers believe that what they are doing is not our distruction but our salvation. Harbinger says so. From their perspective they are taking the right course of action.

To a terrorist it is moral and just to sacrifice themselves to kill as many "unbelievers" or "others of different believes and lifestyles" (not trying to target religious fanatics here but all terrorists in general). It might not be moral to us as we are on the other end but they seriously believe they are doing the right thing. How can you say that you have a moral high ground when their morals are simply different than yours? That is plain arrogence.

Now I am not saying I support the acts of terrorists, because I abhore them. I am only saying that in their mind they think they are in the right. In my eyes there are acts that should never be done, but in theirs they have a different view on those same things.

What you are attempting to do is force everybody onto the same moralities you have set up for yourself and invalidate personal choices and free will. Similar to the Reapers I would suppose, however they are still different.

They dont believe they are taking away our free will (from what I can tell) as each Reaper is millions upon millions of lives communing together in one body, much like the Geth. That still shows individuality in a way, but they drew the conclusion that other life must be saved in this manor because they see no other way. That is a fault on their part, but one that any being can make.

Again, there is no perspective.  What the terrorist is doing is wrong. 

And talking about not accepting the other "perspectives" of the Reaper or the terrorist being an act of denying free will is inane and backwards in the extreme.  It's often the terrorist in real life, and most definately the Reaper in ME, that is actively seeking to limit the choice spaces of others. 

[VaultingFrog]

Aiynn wrote...

VaultingFrog wrote...

There is a problem with that though, you are looking through only one perspective, that of a human. The Reapers believe that what they are doing is not our distruction but our salvation. Harbinger says so. From their perspective they are taking the right course of action.

There is only one perspective to look at them through, and that is through a human's.  They are the fictional creations of humans, and we are humans examining them.  They're so riddled with humanity it's disgusting. 

Then just look at their scripted motovations, or at least what we have seen of the. Harbinger makes it absolutely clear that the Reapers believe that they are "their salvation not distruction".

There is the fictional Reapers view or as best as we can get one.

[VaultingFrog]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Again, there is no perspective.  What the terrorist is doing is wrong. 

And talking about not accepting the other "perspectives" of the Reaper or the terrorist being an act of denying free will is inane and backwards in the extreme.  It's often the terrorist in real life, and most definately the Reaper in ME, that is actively seeking to limit the choice spaces of others. 

This is pure arrogence. Each being, no matter what they are made of has its own morality. You are simply discarding it because it does not agree with your own.

I cant converse with you because you simply fail to understand this. The world is not the way you want it, nobody conforms to your wants and needs. They will choose differently because they are different. Your right could be their wrong and you just have to man/woman up and deal with it.

How is it backwards? It is there view on the situation and it is little different than what you are doing now. You are trying to force others to conform to what you believe is right and what is wrong. That simply will not happen. You are trying to invalidate my own free will in seeing a perspective that you are unwilling to accept or see in any form.

Thats not my fault as my morals and choices allow me to do such a thing, yours apparently dont.

Now then as I am unable to continue conversing with you due to your inablility to accept different views from different beings I will depart. It simply is not worth my time.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Dionkey wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
It takes a lot of additional effort and care to get a full balance of amino acids on a purely vegan diet.  

As for the Reapers, there's every reason for one thinking being to not view another thinking being as cattle for slaughter.  Or are you going to claim that canibalism is perfectly acceptable?

But it is POSSIBLE. The Reapers do not need to reproduce all the time, but they do. In reality, humans are no different from the Reapers, you just like to think so. I have just settled with the fact. Sentience is the killer of civilizations, because once you can think outside-the-box, you already have trouble coming your way.

And when humans do the sorts of things the Reapers are up to, they're wrong too. 

And no, farming and hunting are not anything like what the Reapers are up to.   The Reapers are up to mass murder, mass torture, mass kidnapping, mass genocide, mass rape (of a sort), and so on. 

They only do three of those, and they don't even see that in their eyes. They kidnap the people, destroy/kill the armies and then assmilate them all. Torture is only applicable to the protheans considering they augmented their bodies. So humans are all evil? Why don't we just commit mass suicide? If you were truly against this kind of evil, you would grab a gun and go take down anyone doing it, just like Shepard. Don't try to sound so righteous just because you can't accept the reality of this.

There is nothing evil about it, simply survival of the fittest.

Bull.

The abducted colonists and the countless, nearly endless other experimented-upon individuals over the ages were tortured by the Reapers, and/or their agents.  "Rape" is the best word we have for the Reapers using other thinking beings as part of their reproductive process against their will.  Mass muder, check.  Genocide, check.  Kidnapping, check. 

And where the hell did you get "humans are all evil" out of my post?  You're just making crap up now.   Not all humans do those things.  Show me a Reaper that doesn't do take part in doing those things, and I'll reconsider the blanket part of my statements about the Reapers.  But from what we know, it's all Reapers doing those things, every 50000 years or so, for maybe over a billion years. 

And if there's nothing evil about survival of the fittest, would you be OK with people doing whatever they can to other people in order to get what they want or need? 

If it's not OK for one human to do it to another human, it's not OK for a Reaper to do it to a Prothean, Turian, Asari, etc. 

[Dionkey]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Bull.

The abducted colonists and the countless, nearly endless other experimented-upon individuals over the ages were tortured by the Reapers, and/or their agents.  "Rape" is the best word we have for the Reapers using other thinking beings as part of their reproductive process against their will.  Mass muder, check.  Genocide, check.  Kidnapping, check. 

And where the hell did you get "humans are all evil" out of my post?  You're just making crap up now.   Not all humans do those things.  Show me a Reaper that doesn't do take part in doing those things, and I'll reconsider the blanket part of my statements about the Reapers.  But from what we know, it's all Reapers doing those things, every 50000 years or so, for maybe over a billion years. 

And if there's nothing evil about survival of the fittest, would you be OK with people doing whatever they can to other people in order to get what they want or need? 

If it's not OK for one human to do it to another human, it's not OK for a Reaper to do it to a Prothean, Turian, Asari, etc. 

You realize that the people put into these Reapers were most likely not like "YEAH WOOHOO, TIME TO GET GRINDED UP AND PUT INTO A BIG SHELL SO WE CAN MURDER PEOPLE EVERY 50,000 YEARS! LETS DO THIS!!!!", right? The people who started this whole Reaper process; THEY'RE evil, not the Reapers themselves. This relates back to humans. We do not all participate in those things, but we do contribute and refuse to take action. This is the same as the Reapers, they are simply tagging along and helping out. 

Modifié par Dionkey, 25 août 2011 - 06:57 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

VaultingFrog wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Again, there is no perspective.  What the terrorist is doing is wrong. 

And talking about not accepting the other "perspectives" of the Reaper or the terrorist being an act of denying free will is inane and backwards in the extreme.  It's often the terrorist in real life, and most definately the Reaper in ME, that is actively seeking to limit the choice spaces of others. 

This is pure arrogence. Each being, no matter what they are made of has its own morality. You are simply discarding it because it does not agree with your own.

I cant converse with you because you simply fail to understand this. The world is not the way you want it, nobody conforms to your wants and needs. They will choose differently because they are different. Your right could be their wrong and you just have to man/woman up and deal with it.

How is it backwards? It is there view on the situation and it is little different than what you are doing now. You are trying to force others to conform to what you believe is right and what is wrong. That simply will not happen. You are trying to invalidate my own free will in seeing a perspective that you are unwilling to accept or see in any form.

Thats not my fault as my morals and choices allow me to do such a thing, yours apparently dont.

Now then as I am unable to continue conversing with you due to your inablility to accept different views from different beings I will depart. It simply is not worth my time.

We're not discussing beliefs, we're discussing acts.  The Reapers are evil because they do evil things.  The man who blows himself up in a pizza shop is evil because blowing yourself up and taking a bunch of couples with their kids, and a bunch of teens on dates, with you, is evil.  The beliefs are irrelevent.  The motives are irrelevent. 

[VaultingFrog]

Aiynn wrote...

VaultingFrog wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Again, there is no perspective.  What the terrorist is doing is wrong. 

And talking about not accepting the other "perspectives" of the Reaper or the terrorist being an act of denying free will is inane and backwards in the extreme.  It's often the terrorist in real life, and most definately the Reaper in ME, that is actively seeking to limit the choice spaces of others. 

This is pure arrogence. Each being, no matter what they are made of has its own morality. You are simply discarding it because it does not agree with your own.

I cant converse with you because you simply fail to understand this. The world is not the way you want it, nobody conforms to your wants and needs. They will choose differently because they are different. Your right could be their wrong and you just have to man/woman up and deal with it.

How is it backwards? It is there view on the situation and it is little different than what you are doing now. You are trying to force others to conform to what you believe is right and what is wrong. That simply will not happen. You are trying to invalidate my own free will in seeing a perspective that you are unwilling to accept or see in any form.

Thats not my fault as my morals and choices allow me to do such a thing, yours apparently dont.

Now then as I am unable to continue conversing with you due to your inablility to accept different views from different beings I will depart. It simply is not worth my time.

Society only works because people agree on sets of laws.  So I doubt Killjoy is the only one holding his opinion, considering the things he mentioned are against the law almost everywhere.   

Which society? The one existing in the US? How about the one in Iraq? Two different societies, two different sets of laws and two very different moralities.

I am fine that people want to stand up for their own beliefs. I enjoy doing it myself, but to be so blind as to not see that an opposing view is correct in anothers eyes is just plain.... insane. I couldnt think of a better word.

And no I am not trying to insult anybody, but blind arrogence in not allowing for the opposing side to have their own morality and views is what creates wars and senseless killing.

Also as I have tried to impress multiple times, each person creates their own distinct morality. Though I abide by the laws of America, my morals are considerably different from any other American out there. This is because I choose to be different, I choose to have my own views on issues and events. Just like you and Killjoy are able to choose your own morals and opinions upon things.

Am I saying he/she is wrong to think the way he/she does? Absolutely not. I simply do not see why I would have to conform to such a view as that is what they are demanding of me and everybody else because it appears through their posts that any other way but theirs is flat out wrong and only their opinion/idea is correct.

If that impression is wrong then so be it. It is what I get from the posts and I am dealing with only what I am able to read. It is my perception, my view point. See what I did there?

[VaultingFrog]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

We're not discussing beliefs, we're discussing acts.  The Reapers are evil because they do evil things.  The man who blows himself up in a pizza shop is evil because blowing yourself up and taking a bunch of couples with their kids, and a bunch of teens on dates, with you, is evil.  The beliefs are irrelevent.  The motives are irrelevent. 

Actions are driven by beliefs. If you did not believe that you would gain any benefit from lets say, applying for a job, would you do it? I would think not.

If you believed that you were fighting for your cause, and that fight involved children, women and others who believed differently, would you not fight? Or would you follow your beliefs (though wrong in others eyes) and do what you thought was just?

That is what we are talking about here. It is the driving force for actions. That is a perspective. It is what causes one to act or not to act. Just like you are reacting to what I am putting in my posts. Your views and beliefs are driving you into trying to convince me (and believe me they are not comming anywhere near close) of the "correctness" of your morals/beliefs.

The act is a result of the belief/moral. Not the other way around. Then once an act is done new beliefs and or morals are formed because of the new experiences. Those new beliefs and or morals (whatever you want to call them) become the new driving force for whatever action you decide to take next.

Is that clear enough? I am not sure I can explain it any clearer than that unfortunately.

[Dionkey]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
We're not discussing beliefs, we're discussing acts.  The Reapers are evil because they do evil things.  The man who blows himself up in a pizza shop is evil because blowing yourself up and taking a bunch of couples with their kids, and a bunch of teens on dates, with you, is evil.  The beliefs are irrelevent.  The motives are irrelevent. 

Evil is only evil if the people committing the act realize what they are doing is wrong. If they legitimately see it as a good act, then you can't blame the person, they have simply been manipulated.

[Killjoy Cutter]

I'm not arguing with you. I'm arguing against you. I'm arguing against the pathetic postmodern nonsense that all beliefs and all perspectives are created equal. I have no hope of convincing someone who was indoctrinated into psuedointellectual cultural relativism that they are gravely mistaken.

But someone can believe whatever they want. It's when they use force and coercion to impose choice-limiting beliefs on others that they cross the line. A murderer, kidnapper, rapist, or robber is seeking to impose his desire for something on someone else through force and coercion. The Reapers could believe that worthy species should be made into Reapers and everyone else should disappear. It's when they take action to make those things happen against the will of the individuals who make up those various species that they earn the word "evil".

The use of force to stop someone from that imposition, however, is justified. Self defense, or the defense of another.


Now, as for cultures that actively promote things like FGM, "honor" killing, sending their youth out to blowselves up in crowds of innocent civilians?   They can either change, or die out, as far as I'm concerned. 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 25 août 2011 - 07:21 .

[marshalleck]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

How is that trolling?

Because no one could seriously claim the moral high ground for a horde of giant parastic monster-ships bent on endless galactic genocide.

I never claimed moral highground for anyone. I said it's irrelevent, just as I believe concepts of "good" and "evil" are generally unsuitable for anything but provoking an irrational like/dislike reaction towards the subject to which they are applied. 

If you want to look at the Reapers objectively, as I assume you do since you're crying about "moral relativism" then all you can do is assess how efficiently their methods satisfy their goal. And since they've developed technology far in excess of anything understandable by the contemporary races, and by virtue of the fact that they've existed for millions and millions of years, the only objective conclusion you can reach is that their methods are highly efficient at satisfying whatever their motivations are. 

There's your objectivity for you. Deal with it.

Modifié par marshalleck, 25 août 2011 - 07:20 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

marshalleck wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
How is that trolling?

Because no one could seriously claim the moral high ground for a horde of giant parastic monster-ships bent on endless galactic genocide.

I never claimed moral highground for anyone. I said it's irrelevent, just as I believe concepts of "good" and "evil" are generally unsuitable for anything but provoking an irrational like/dislike reaction towards the subject to which they are applied. 

If you want to look at the Reapers objectively, as I assume you do since you're crying about "moral relativism" then all you can do is assess how efficiently their methods satisfy their goal. And since they've developed technology far in excess of anything understandable by the contemporary races, and by virtue of the fact that they've existed for millions and millions of years, the only objective conclusion you can reach is that their methods are highly efficient at satisfying whatever their motivations are. 

There's your objectivity for you. Deal with it.

That's not objectivity, that's just base utilitarianism.