395 réponses à ce sujet

[Davie McG]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

They might consider humans and other as "ants", what wouldn't make it true. 

We know chimpanzees are intelligent but we still put them in cages, experament on them and eat them (supossedly they are actualy quite tasty) and many don't view these actions as evil so long as they are necessary. We know octopuses are highly intelligent but we eat them too. When humans consider something inferior they quite often have no qualms about killing it.

My problem with considering reapers evil is that your presuming they consider their actions as moral or immoral. I don't see any evidence that the reapers have a sense of right or wrong. They don't consider inflicting pain as wrong as they view pain as merely a series of electrical signals sent too the brain, an illusion your mind creates. To me it's as if they view us as weak or feable minded for not controlling these electrical signals. I doubt they mourn us when they kill us. As we don't mourn the chimp or octopus or dog or cattle bla bla bla et cetera et cetera. 

[Son of Illusive Man]

Well, we've talked to them before, and they've played stupid mind games rather than trying to explain themselves, so until they give justification - I'm going to think of them as evil.

Even if they aren't evil. We all have an instinct for self-preservation, and if we can't both co-exist peacefully, I'm going to do everything in my power to make sure my species survives.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Davie McG wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

They might consider humans and other as "ants", what wouldn't make it true. 

We know chimpanzees are intelligent but we still put them in cages, experament on them and eat them (supossedly they are actualy quite tasty) and many don't view these actions as evil so long as they are necessary. We know octopuses are highly intelligent but we eat them too. When humans consider something inferior they quite often have no qualms about killing it.

My problem with considering reapers evil is that your presuming they consider their actions as moral or immoral. I don't see any evidence that the reapers have a sense of right or wrong. They don't consider inflicting pain as wrong as they view pain as merely a series of electrical signals sent too the brain, an illusion your mind creates. To me it's as if they view us as weak or feable minded for not controlling these electrical signals. I doubt they mourn us when they kill us. As we don't mourn the chimp or octopus or dog or cattle bla bla bla et cetera et cetera. 

Well, personally, I think we should be as humane as possible to chimps, as they are clearly on some level thinking beings.  Same with the other great apes, cetaceans, etc.  That doesn't mean no captivity.  Eating chimps isn't just a little creepy, it's probably not that smart, either.

[Ianamus]

Where do people get the idea that the Reapers need to harvest Organic life to survive? Reproduction isn't necessary for survival if your a species of giant machine's that don't age.

[Killjoy Cutter]

EJ107 wrote...
Where do people get the idea that the Reapers need to harvest Organic life to survive? Reproduction isn't necessary for survival if your a species of giant machine's that don't age.

I don't think people stop to think about it.  There's a strain of unthinking "sympathy for the devil" in modern Western culture. 

[StynesRebooted]

i think reapers are DARKSPAWNS IN FUTURE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Veex]

Sad that work has kept me from the BSN. Hate entering conversations like this late! As I've not read the majority of thread I'm likely going to be rehashing things that have already been discussed. Oh well, going to do it anyway!

Firstly, we've got to acknowledge that the Reapers are in fact a human construct. We're really already participating in this thought experiment. As much as we'd like it not to be so, the Reapers have inhereted the biases and unconscious tendencies of their author.

In my opinion the concept of "evil" is an entirely human construct. Its an abstract descriptor used to explain those actions we cannot comprehend. Were an individual able to examine and understand the motivations behind an action we'd likely come to some sort of conclusion which explained the reasoning for the action. We wouldn't have to agree obviously, but understanding is paramount to removing the abstract. You can look back through history and see cases of "evil" being explained via science in more recent years. The mentally ill being branded as witches, for instance. We often fear what we don't understand.

Now, with that said, I think there are terms that aren't abstract that could adequately or more accurately describe the Reapers, and humans. Aggressive, destructive, intelligent are terms that come to mind. I don't think anyone could deny that, as a species, we're all three of the above traits. We've fought other species for resources. We've fought ourselves. We've destroyed many of the resources or prior inhabitants. Then we've found more efficient ways to complete those processes.

To draw a parallel, perhaps we can loosely consider the Reapers as the Spanish conquistadors. The benefits of superior armor and the psychological benefit of cavalry and early firearms lead to Pizzaro's conquest of the Inca in Peru. You've obviously got varying perceptions of the conquistadors and Inca during the time, and that perception continues to evolve over time.

To summarize my thoughts, I suppose that if we can attempt to remove our own human constructs from the equation, the Reapers are a more evolved, aggressive and destructive species. They'll use what resources they require and progress irrelevant of how we categorize them. Much as the Spanish and other colonial nations did with regards to indigenous peoples. To the conquered, they're evil, yes. To the conqueror, we're simply another obstacle or resource in the evolutionary line of progression.

[Veex]

EJ107 wrote...

Where do people get the idea that the Reapers need to harvest Organic life to survive? Reproduction isn't necessary for survival if your a species of giant machine's that don't age.

Its just a hypothesis based on some of Vigil's recordings about harvesting resources and the assumption that, as partly organic, they do consume some sort of energy. We don't have enough information obviously to discern exactly what sustaints them, so its supposition that organic life is required as part of that, thus perpetuating the cycle.

[netleopard54]

Veex wrote...

Sad that work has kept me from the BSN. Hate entering conversations like this late! As I've not read the majority of thread I'm likely going to be rehashing things that have already been discussed. Oh well, going to do it anyway!

Firstly, we've got to acknowledge that the Reapers are in fact a human construct. We're really already participating in this thought experiment. As much as we'd like it not to be so, the Reapers have inhereted the biases and unconscious tendencies of their author.

In my opinion the concept of "evil" is an entirely human construct. Its an abstract descriptor used to explain those actions we cannot comprehend. Were an individual able to examine and understand the motivations behind an action we'd likely come to some sort of conclusion which explained the reasoning for the action. We wouldn't have to agree obviously, but understanding is paramount to removing the abstract. You can look back through history and see cases of "evil" being explained via science in more recent years. The mentally ill being branded as witches, for instance. We often fear what we don't understand.

I disagree that "evil" is an abstract only term.  You can understand why someone performed an action, but I don't think that understanding says whether it is an evil act or not.  For example, Hitler.  there have been many documentries on his motivations and explaination of why he and ****-germany did what they did, does that make genecide "not" an "evil" act?  I would hope most would agree that actions such as genecide are "evil" actions.

Veex wrote...
Now, with that said, I think there are terms that aren't abstract that could adequately or more accurately describe the Reapers, and humans. Aggressive, destructive, intelligent are terms that come to mind. I don't think anyone could deny that, as a species, we're all three of the above traits. We've fought other species for resources. We've fought ourselves. We've destroyed many of the resources or prior inhabitants. Then we've found more efficient ways to complete those processes.

humans have performed dispicable acts throughout history.  but does that make it right?  I don't think so. 

Veex wrote...
To draw a parallel, perhaps we can loosely consider the Reapers as the Spanish conquistadors. The benefits of superior armor and the psychological benefit of cavalry and early firearms lead to Pizzaro's conquest of the Inca in Peru. You've obviously got varying perceptions of the conquistadors and Inca during the time, and that perception continues to evolve over time.

I don't find this to be an acurate parallel for two main reasons.  first, the Spanish conquistadors did not represent all of humanity or dictate the actions another counties performed.  With the reapers they are a unifided front, all reapers believe that senitent life should be destroyed, the real question is why let it begin at all, just to destory it?  Some may not find a distinction in this, but I think there is.  Humans don't agree on alot, if we did i doubt we would have so many governments, etc.  but if you take it to the basics there are some things that are prevalent in all human society, like "killing is bad/wrong"  different humans may have different actions or beliefs therein. Second, the spanish conquistadors went to conquer not exterminate, which to date is what bioware has told us that the reapers intend to do.

Veex wrote..
To summarize my thoughts, I suppose that if we can attempt to remove our own human constructs from the equation, the Reapers are a more evolved, aggressive and destructive species. They'll use what resources they require and progress irrelevant of how we categorize them. Much as the Spanish and other colonial nations did with regards to indigenous peoples. To the conquered, they're evil, yes. To the conqueror, we're simply another obstacle or resource in the evolutionary line of progression.

while I find logic in this statement I question your conclusion.  Which i have interpreted to mean that the reapers are not evil becuase they do not view themselves that way.  As i see it the acts themselves can be defined as "evil" whether the person performing them believes this or not.  take my first example for instance,  Hitler did not think he was "evil"  or that his actions were "evil", just as the reapers may not think there actions are "evil", but does that make what they are doing right, and not evil?  I would disagree.

I have seen many parallels to the evils that humans have done to justify what the reapers are doing.  My question to them is "does that make it right(not evil)?"

just my 2 cents

Modifié par netleopard54, 26 août 2011 - 04:10 .

[PauseforEffect]

Had a crazy thought of the Reapers trying to maintain the continuation of organic life the way a gardener will deadhead a few blooms on a plant. Take the full blossoms or dying ones off so that the rest of the plant will be able to devote precious energy towards the buds.
The amount of resources and mining it took for the Normandy to gather was enough to make them move to several planets. Now if several other ships were doing that and with organic life moving across the stars using up valuable resources for petty wars and potential disasters by ruining garden worlds, they may very well deplete it to the point that future organic life can no longer develop due to the interference of the existing races. Tali herself said that resources are scarce enough that even Geth would not waste a star for a weapon that was inefficient.
So maybe the reapers are "pruning" organic life so that future evolutions of organic life will continue and develop in such a way to produce whatever "fuel" the reapers still need from organics. Who knows, maybe the reapers were created by organics, but were not complete when their creators were gone and need future generations to perpetuate them.
Like I said, crazy thought.

[Veex]

netleopard54 wrote...
while I find logic in this statement I question your conclusion.  Which i have interpreted to mean that the reapers are not evil becuase they do not view themselves that way.  As i see it the acts themselves can be defined as "evil" whether the person performing them believes this or not.  take my first example for instance,  Hitler did not think he was "evil"  or that his actions were "evil", just as the reapers may not think there actions are "evil", but does that make what they are doing right, and not evil?  I would disagree.

I have seen many parallels to the evils that humans have done to justify what the reapers are doing.  My question to them is "does that make it right(not evil)?"

just my 2 cents

Netleopard,

You raise some good questions. I'm only quoting your conclusion because it relates back to most of your answers. Essentially, what I was trying to explain, is that "evil" only exists as a construct because we as a species have conceptualized its meaning. I'm really treading on hermeneutics here more than anything. Before we developed language for example, what was evil? What was a chair? In my opinion I agree with Heideger and Heigel and other philosophers who thought that, without the construction of language and our ability to verbalize and share these concepts, they simply didn't exist. Life existed and progressed as a simple matter of being and we hadn't placed these moral values on actions.

What I was attempting to show with my comparison is that, without our perception of morality, evil isn't applicable. If the Reapers don't share that experience then it would be folly to hold them to it. I don't see it brought up often, but were we dealing with the Krogan, their entire culture would be something we'd likely call evil. They relish fighting and death as a test of worth.

Take a look back at the OP's insect example. Ants will indiscriminantly kill and enslave other colonies. Just a part of life for them. Without the ability to conceptualize their actions, is it evil?

[Killjoy Cutter]

PrimalEden wrote...

Had a crazy thought of the Reapers trying to maintain the continuation of organic life the way a gardener will deadhead a few blooms on a plant. Take the full blossoms or dying ones off so that the rest of the plant will be able to devote precious energy towards the buds.
The amount of resources and mining it took for the Normandy to gather was enough to make them move to several planets. Now if several other ships were doing that and with organic life moving across the stars using up valuable resources for petty wars and potential disasters by ruining garden worlds, they may very well deplete it to the point that future organic life can no longer develop due to the interference of the existing races. Tali herself said that resources are scarce enough that even Geth would not waste a star for a weapon that was inefficient.
So maybe the reapers are "pruning" organic life so that future evolutions of organic life will continue and develop in such a way to produce whatever "fuel" the reapers still need from organics. Who knows, maybe the reapers were created by organics, but were not complete when their creators were gone and need future generations to perpetuate them.
Like I said, crazy thought.

Don't take the Mining Tedium Game as a setting clue.  It was just a silly minigame with no connection to the story or setting.

[Il Divo]

EJ107 wrote...

Where do people get the idea that the Reapers need to harvest Organic life to survive? Reproduction isn't necessary for survival if your a species of giant machine's that don't age.

Except that in Mass Effect 2 it's hypothesized that Reapers are composed of Organics, as the human Reaper demonstrated. It's possible that's not how they've always reproduced, but so far the human Reaper is the only example we've seen.

[Veex]

Veex wrote...

Take a look back at the OP's insect example. Ants will indiscriminantly kill and enslave other colonies. Just a part of life for them. Without the ability to conceptualize their actions, is it evil?

Some other good examples to explore in the animal kingdom would be Lions, Bottle-nosed Dolphins, and Chimpanzees especially. Chimps are really, really evil!

[Whatever42]

Il Divo wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

Where do people get the idea that the Reapers need to harvest Organic life to survive? Reproduction isn't necessary for survival if your a species of giant machine's that don't age.

Except that in Mass Effect 2 it's hypothesized that Reapers are composed of Organics, as the human Reaper demonstrated. It's possible that's not how they've always reproduced, but so far the human Reaper is the only example we've seen.

Personally, I think its more than simply reproduction. There would be more controlled ways to manage that. I think the Reapers value natural evolution as a way to advance their own species.

[Dean_the_Young]

You can't think of the Reapers as a 'species.' That's a fallacy: they aren't identical products of the same sort any more than 'the Council' is a single species.

'The Reapers' is a collective. They don't improve a single species, but add to the collective. They diversify, not unify.

[Fixers0]

Evil is subjective.

[Krunjar]

Simply comparing the relationship between humans and animals to the relationship between humans and "reapers" or some other greater form of existence like that is something that really annoys me. It's like the politically correct "philosophy" to assume the end result of this is human hypocrasy. For one the brain cell picture is hardly compelling. Oh look two things that look the same THEY MUST BE RELATED!

I am sorry if I upset some furry animal lovers with this but .. Animals have a fraction of the potential of humans. Assuming that travel to other star systems is even possible (as it is in the mass effect world) Sentient races are the only ones capable of this. IF one is to start feeling sorry for animals one would also need to start feeling sorry for VI's They are excactly the same don't be fooled by the watery eyes and the cute appearances. They are just programs executing an extremeley sophisticated code.

The difference between animal level intellect and sentience has been well documented and is a leap of mindblowing proportions. Don't underestimate the difference between us and them simply because we share some emotional responses.

Now making assumptions about the nature of the reapers with what we have been told already. They are each a huge fused mass of sentient beings. The question is does this make them simply a sentient creature with more intellect or does this give them something beyond sentience? If it does and this gives them the potential to be more than we ever could conceive of then no they are not evil. If they are just an old sentient race feeding on others in order to gain immortality then yes they are.  Of course all this assumes that the universe cares.

Good and evil are kinda ambigous concepts anyway. They are relative to the one doing the labeling. Are the reapers evil to US, yes by any definition. Of course this assumes you don't believe in a creator being that gives us worth according to their own implacable judgement. And if you do believe in such things (as i do) then only it knows what it thinks. If you don't believe in god then only youre own definition of good and evil means a damn to you.

Yeah I know that was a wall of text but i REALLY HATE that whole omg! we kill fluffy animals and yet don't want to be killed ourselves it's so hypocritical! Wheres my mcdonalds! crowd. And animal is NOT a person. The difference between an animal and a person is the same size difference as between a social animal and a plant more or less.

Modifié par Krunjar, 26 août 2011 - 06:33 .

[jamesp81]

VaultingFrog wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

VaultingFrog wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

How is that trolling?

Because no one could seriously claim the moral high ground for a horde of giant parastic monster-ships bent on endless galactic genocide.

Morality is pure perspective nothing more. From our view point the Reapers seem "evil" (term used to give voice to a perspective). From their point of view humanity and or the rest of the galaxy could be evil. I wouldnt know as I am not a Reaper.

This thread originally started out as an attempt to argue perspective with incomplete data. Nobody knows a Reapers perspective because nobody is a Reaper. Just like you can not argue about what your mother percieves as it is her perceptions on events, even though yours are completely different on the same event. Nobody is wrong in this matter.

Some things are just wrong.   There is no "perspective" when it comes to what the Reapers have done and plan to do again.  Mass murder.  Genocide.   Kidnapping.   Experimenting on thinking beings against their will.  Something akin to rape.  Etc. 

There is a problem with that though, you are looking through only one perspective, that of a human. The Reapers believe that what they are doing is not our distruction but our salvation.

What they believe is irrelevant.  What matters is what is true, and what is not.

Modifié par jamesp81, 26 août 2011 - 07:56 .

[jamesp81]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

From another thread:

jamesp81 wrote...
The reapers do indeed destroy all individuality and free will. For this reason alone, they are profoundly evil. Not profoundly different, profoundly alien, or of a profoundly different culture.

Profoundly. Evil.

Only one thing to do with that....

^ This.

Your free will is an illusion, and the individual is not more important than the collective. 

Whatever.

Determinist nimwit.

It is quite normal to want to believe evil does not exist or is an invention.  Life is much easier that way.  It means there are no consequences, beyond the material, for one's actions since those actions can be neither evil nor good.  The only consequences one need worry about is survival, acquisition of wealth and power, pleasure, etc.

The reason evil is an uncomfortable idea is because the very concept of it implies one might be made to face some kind of judgment for the things he's done.  The concept of evil forces a man to consider something other than his own self-centered desires, and that's something we, humanity, don't like one bit at all.

[jamesp81]

Krunjar wrote...

Simply comparing the relationship between humans and animals to the relationship between humans and "reapers" or some other greater form of existence like that is something that really annoys me. It's like the politically correct "philosophy" to assume the end result of this is human hypocrasy. For one the brain cell picture is hardly compelling. Oh look two things that look the same THEY MUST BE RELATED!

Well said.  Saying humans are to Reapers what cattle are to humans is just ridiculous on the face of it.  It doesn't make any sense by the what we know of such things.

As for the brain cell picture, they can be thought of as related in one way.  Mathematics.  Nature tends to "like" certain patterns and it's often easy to find them in many places.  That photo is just one of many examples of that.

[shiftylookingspacecow]

The Reaper war isnt about good versus evil, it's not about a clash of morals or ideals, it's not tyranny versus liberty, it's pure and simple survival. The reapers gotta reap to us to continue, we have to stop them to survive as we know it.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Humans, in order to justify a genocide or war, don't just label their "enemy" as evil. Humans dehumanize the enemy, making them inferior or less than human: see genocide during the Spanish Inquisition, genocide of the Amer-Indians, genocide of the Jews; and stuff we called the people of Vietnam, North Koreans, etc., and the list goes on and on throughout human history. Ideological wars always fail.

The reapers don't do any such things. They are machines programmed to do what they do.

ME3? The war against the Reapers? It's not about ideology, religion, superior or inferior, liberty vs. tyranny (which is always a matter of perspective anyway). It's about survival, pure and simple. Nothing else is needed. So for now, I'm actually expecting that even among factions that hate each other, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend, until that enemy is defeated" will be the rule. Even the remaining Batarians and Humans will fight side by side.

We need to delay the Reapers long enough to invent or find the Deus Ex Machina that will wipe them out.

Now what if someone were to come up with a way of controlling the reapers? Would you send them through the Omega 4 relay into the black hole? Or would you use them to rule over the galaxy? Perhaps this is what TIM is looking for?

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 26 août 2011 - 08:11 .

[Veex]

jamesp81 wrote...

It is quite normal to want to believe evil does not exist or is an invention.  Life is much easier that way.  It means there are no consequences, beyond the material, for one's actions since those actions can be neither evil nor good.  The only consequences one need worry about is survival, acquisition of wealth and power, pleasure, etc.

The reason evil is an uncomfortable idea is because the very concept of it implies one might be made to face some kind of judgment for the things he's done.  The concept of evil forces a man to consider something other than his own self-centered desires, and that's something we, humanity, don't like one bit at all.

What did warring tribes do before they could speak and communicate? Were they committing acts of evil?