395 réponses à ce sujet

[Balek-Vriege]

ubermensch007 wrote...

Kaidan: Anything you need Commander?

Shepard: Just trying to get a sense of where the crew is at - thoughts?

Kaidan: Were all in for the duration.You can count on everyone to do their duty.

Shepard: What's your opinion of the last mission?

Kaidan: Input? Hell. I don't know. We're fighting giant machines from outside the galaxy.
Should I be afraid of them? Or in awe of them? Anything so old, so intelligent...

Shepard: We may be "ants" to them, but humans have never managed to exterminate ants.

Kaidan: makes you wonder.Are ants any more aware than we were? Of the giants that walk over their heads?

Shut up Kaidan.

Modifié par Balek-Vriege, 27 août 2011 - 05:52 .

[ubermensch007]

@Balek-Vriege:

Modifié par ubermensch007, 28 août 2011 - 05:12 .

[Get Magna Carter]

objective "good" and "evil" are only found in fairy tales
subjectively -any sane entity considers itself "good" and thinks of it's "adversaries" as "evil"

While the Reaper's motivation is not entirely clear, my current understanding is that they study sentient races to determine which are worthy to "grant the gift of immortality to" (by making them reapers) ...for any other species there is little point in waiting for the inevitable so they speed up the process with mass euthanasia and clear the galaxy out ready for the next set of species...

[111987]

Something interesting to consider: many people believe that what the Reaper's are doing to humans (and other organic species) by converting them into Reaper's is evil. But let's say that in real life, some scientists found a way to unify the entire human race into a collective conscious, preserving our species and making us immortal, would these scientists be evil? This would eliminate practically every problem that plagues humanity; war, poverty, disease, struggles of religion/ideology, etc...so I guess my question is, are the Reaper's evil because they are converting organics into Reapers, or because they don't give organics a choice?

But to answer the so the question raised in the thread, I agree with others in the thread who have already stated that good and evil are simply matters of perspective.

[jamesp81]

111987 wrote...

Something interesting to consider: many people believe that what the Reaper's are doing to humans (and other organic species) by converting them into Reaper's is evil. But let's say that in real life, some scientists found a way to unify the entire human race into a collective conscious, preserving our species and making us immortal, would these scientists be evil? This would eliminate practically every problem that plagues humanity; war, poverty, disease, struggles of religion/ideology, etc...so I guess my question is, are the Reaper's evil because they are converting organics into Reapers, or because they don't give organics a choice?

But to answer the so the question raised in the thread, I agree with others in the thread who have already stated that good and evil are simply matters of perspective.

I don't know if it'd make the scientists evil but it's certainly an evil idea.  It's arguably still evil even if everyone agreed to it.  It's kind of a pointless hypothetical, since not everyone would agree to it in the first place.

Surrendering one's own freedom in such a manner is a shirking of responsibility at best.  It is the natural right of an individual to be free; it's also a responsibility, interestingly enough.  This natural right that existed long before any government was ever created and will exist long after the empires of men lay in ashes.  To surrender something like that without a fight is an affront to nature.

Modifié par jamesp81, 28 août 2011 - 11:27 .

[jamesp81]

Scorpion1O1 wrote...

I think at this point most agree that the term evil is obsolete. There is no such thing as good and evil just perspectives.

Did you know that people have been saying that for centuries?

It's just as incorrect today as it was then

Modifié par jamesp81, 28 août 2011 - 11:30 .

[111987]

jamesp81 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Something interesting to consider: many people believe that what the Reaper's are doing to humans (and other organic species) by converting them into Reaper's is evil. But let's say that in real life, some scientists found a way to unify the entire human race into a collective conscious, preserving our species and making us immortal, would these scientists be evil? This would eliminate practically every problem that plagues humanity; war, poverty, disease, struggles of religion/ideology, etc...so I guess my question is, are the Reaper's evil because they are converting organics into Reapers, or because they don't give organics a choice?

But to answer the so the question raised in the thread, I agree with others in the thread who have already stated that good and evil are simply matters of perspective.

I don't know if it'd make the scientists evil but it's certainly an evil idea.  It's arguably still evil even if everyone agreed to it.  It's kind of a pointless hypothetical, since not everyone would agree to it in the first place.

Surrendering one's own freedom in such a manner is a shirking of responsibility at best.  It is the natural right of an individual to be free; it's also a responsibility, interestingly enough.  This natural right that existed long before any government was ever created and will exist long after the empires of men lay in ashes.  To surrender something like that without a fight is an affront to nature.

You're right that my situation would never happen, I was just trying to find a way to phrase the question, are what the Reaper's are doing evil, or is it only evil because it is imposed? You certainly raise valid points about an individual's right to be free, although removing all other problems that face organics certainly sounds tempting. For the record I don't condone the idea of turning humans into Reapers

[111987]

jamesp81 wrote...

Scorpion1O1 wrote...

I think at this point most agree that the term evil is obsolete. There is no such thing as good and evil just perspectives.

Did you know that people have been saying that for centuries?

It's just as incorrect today as it was then

I have to disagree with you, for good and evil are certainly matters of perspective.

Take the U.S bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki at the end of World War II (yes I know, a cliche example but just bear with me). Those bombs were dropped on civiliian targets, and ended up killing over 400,000 people. Certainly this is an example of an evil action right? However many historians of military history argue that had the bombs not been dropped, invading Japan via conventional means would have yielded an even higher death toll.

Thus from the American perspective, the bombings were not evil as in a way, they saved more lives in the long run.
From the Japanese perspective, the bombings were definitely evil as it killed over 400,000 of their own people.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

111987 wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Scorpion1O1 wrote...

I think at this point most agree that the term evil is obsolete. There is no such thing as good and evil just perspectives.

Did you know that people have been saying that for centuries?

It's just as incorrect today as it was then

I have to disagree with you, for good and evil are certainly matters of perspective.

Take the U.S bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki at the end of World War II (yes I know, a cliche example but just bear with me). Those bombs were dropped on civiliian targets, and ended up killing over 400,000 people. Certainly this is an example of an evil action right? However many historians of military history argue that had the bombs not been dropped, invading Japan via conventional means would have yielded an even higher death toll.

Thus from the American perspective, the bombings were not evil as in a way, they saved more lives in the long run.
From the Japanese perspective, the bombings were definitely evil as it killed over 400,000 of their own people.

Actually the American perspective is that it was a neccissary evil.

[RAF1940]

no

[RAF1940]

ubermensch007 wrote...

Kaidan: Anything you need Commander?

Shepard: Just trying to get a sense of where the crew is at - thoughts?

Kaidan: Were all in for the duration.You can count on everyone to do their duty.

Shepard: What's your opinion of the last mission?

Kaidan: Input? Hell. I don't know. We're fighting giant machines from outside the galaxy.
Should I be afraid of them? Or in awe of them? Anything so old, so intelligent...

Shepard: We may be "ants" to them, but humans have never managed to exterminate ants.

Kaidan: makes you wonder.Are ants any more aware than we were? Of the giants that walk over their heads?

This conversation exists? Holy ****, I actually like Kaidan now.

[Volus Warlord]

RAF1940 wrote...

ubermensch007 wrote...

Kaidan: Anything you need Commander?

Shepard: Just trying to get a sense of where the crew is at - thoughts?

Kaidan: Were all in for the duration.You can count on everyone to do their duty.

Shepard: What's your opinion of the last mission?

Kaidan: Input? Hell. I don't know. We're fighting giant machines from outside the galaxy.
Should I be afraid of them? Or in awe of them? Anything so old, so intelligent...

Shepard: We may be "ants" to them, but humans have never managed to exterminate ants.

Kaidan: makes you wonder.Are ants any more aware than we were? Of the giants that walk over their heads?

This conversation exists? Holy ****, I actually like Kaidan now.

Hm. I still hate him.

"Evil" more often than not is a branding that bars understanding.

[111987]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

111987 wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Scorpion1O1 wrote...

I think at this point most agree that the term evil is obsolete. There is no such thing as good and evil just perspectives.

Did you know that people have been saying that for centuries?

It's just as incorrect today as it was then

I have to disagree with you, for good and evil are certainly matters of perspective.

Take the U.S bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki at the end of World War II (yes I know, a cliche example but just bear with me). Those bombs were dropped on civiliian targets, and ended up killing over 400,000 people. Certainly this is an example of an evil action right? However many historians of military history argue that had the bombs not been dropped, invading Japan via conventional means would have yielded an even higher death toll.

Thus from the American perspective, the bombings were not evil as in a way, they saved more lives in the long run.
From the Japanese perspective, the bombings were definitely evil as it killed over 400,000 of their own people.

Actually the American perspective is that it was a neccissary evil.

I suppose that is one way of interpreting the American perspective (although since the Japanese were on the verge of surrendering anyways, it probably wasn't necesarry at all).

You raise a fair point though that the action could been seen as universally evil. Another example could be this then; after World War I, France pushed adamantly for Germany to be punished and reduced in strength so much that it could no longer pose a threat to France. The steep reparations Germany was forced to pay were one of the main reasons why the Germany economy collapsed in the 1920's. From a German perspective, this could be seen as an 'evil' action as it punished innocent German citizens for losing a war they didn't even fight in. From a French perspective, this could be seen as a 'good' action as it removed Germany as a threat (for a while...) and thus France protected its people. And in this case, it was not a necesarry 'evil' from the French side because Germany was already severely weakened from WW1; extensive punishment wasn't needed to secure France's security.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

I don't believe the Reapers see themselves as "evil" Because they likely consider themselves above such concepts.

While from the viewpoint of the races they...well reap they are the epitome of evil.

The problem with terms like "Good" and "Evil" is just how subjective they are. Is the Roman General who utterly destroys his foe a monster for committing genocide? or a hero for forever destroying a threat to his people?

Is Wrex uniting the Krogan through (relatively) peaceful means a hero for finally realizing what his people need to do to survive or a fool who thinks he can change Krogan nature?

[ubermensch007]

RAF1940 wrote...

ubermensch007 wrote...

Kaidan: Anything you need Commander?

Shepard: Just trying to get a sense of where the crew is at - thoughts?

Kaidan: Were all in for the duration.You can count on everyone to do their duty.

Shepard: What's your opinion of the last mission?

Kaidan: Input? Hell. I don't know. We're fighting giant machines from outside the galaxy.
Should I be afraid of them? Or in awe of them? Anything so old, so intelligent...

Shepard: We may be "ants" to them, but humans have never managed to exterminate ants.

Kaidan: makes you wonder.Are ants any more aware than we were? Of the giants that walk over their heads?

This conversation exists? Holy ****, I actually like Kaidan now.

@RAF1940: Yeah this is like my favorite moment of banter betwixt Shepard and Kaidan in the game.Unfortunately you only get to see it if Lieutenant Alenko is the Virmire Survivor. <_<

[Killjoy Cutter]

111987 wrote...

Something interesting to consider: many people believe that what the Reaper's are doing to humans (and other organic species) by converting them into Reaper's is evil. But let's say that in real life, some scientists found a way to unify the entire human race into a collective conscious, preserving our species and making us immortal, would these scientists be evil? This would eliminate practically every problem that plagues humanity; war, poverty, disease, struggles of religion/ideology, etc...so I guess my question is, are the Reaper's evil because they are converting organics into Reapers, or because they don't give organics a choice?

But to answer the so the question raised in the thread, I agree with others in the thread who have already stated that good and evil are simply matters of perspective.

The moment even one single person was forced to join that collective consciousness against their will, then it would become evil, yes.  And not subjective, perspective, evil.  Outright, absolute, objective evil.

[sedrikhcain]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Many evil people believe they are doing the right thing.

As for animals... yeah.  Might apply to any animals that are actually sapient. 

Very true. In fact, nearly all people who perform "evil" acts on a grand scale believe they are doing the right thing.

And evil is always a matter of perspective.

[sedrikhcain]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

111987 wrote...

Something interesting to consider: many people believe that what the Reaper's are doing to humans (and other organic species) by converting them into Reaper's is evil. But let's say that in real life, some scientists found a way to unify the entire human race into a collective conscious, preserving our species and making us immortal, would these scientists be evil? This would eliminate practically every problem that plagues humanity; war, poverty, disease, struggles of religion/ideology, etc...so I guess my question is, are the Reaper's evil because they are converting organics into Reapers, or because they don't give organics a choice?

But to answer the so the question raised in the thread, I agree with others in the thread who have already stated that good and evil are simply matters of perspective.

The moment even one single person was forced to join that collective consciousness against their will, then it would become evil, yes.  And not subjective, perspective, evil.  Outright, absolute, objective evil.

How is it objective?

[111987]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

111987 wrote...

Something interesting to consider: many people believe that what the Reaper's are doing to humans (and other organic species) by converting them into Reaper's is evil. But let's say that in real life, some scientists found a way to unify the entire human race into a collective conscious, preserving our species and making us immortal, would these scientists be evil? This would eliminate practically every problem that plagues humanity; war, poverty, disease, struggles of religion/ideology, etc...so I guess my question is, are the Reaper's evil because they are converting organics into Reapers, or because they don't give organics a choice?

But to answer the so the question raised in the thread, I agree with others in the thread who have already stated that good and evil are simply matters of perspective.

The moment even one single person was forced to join that collective consciousness against their will, then it would become evil, yes.  And not subjective, perspective, evil.  Outright, absolute, objective evil.

I don't know, I think it could be a morally grey area. if someone is in a coma brought on by a heart attack, and they have surgery performed on them without their consent, is that evil? Of course not right, because the person wasn't capable of making a decision? But what if beforehand that person has previously said to their spouse they never want to go under surgery? If the spouse allows the surgery and the person is saved, is that evil? By the way i'm not just pulling this out of thin air, this situation happened to someone I know.

My point with all of that is, not everyone would think it's evil for the Reapers to remove all problems from humanity by unifiying the race. Even if some people were unwilling and were forced to become a Reaper, from another perspective, it could be seen that forcing these people into becoming the Reaper is a good thing, and they would be evil if they allowed their bretheren to remain un-transcended.

[Killjoy Cutter]

111987 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

111987 wrote...

Something interesting to consider: many people believe that what the Reaper's are doing to humans (and other organic species) by converting them into Reaper's is evil. But let's say that in real life, some scientists found a way to unify the entire human race into a collective conscious, preserving our species and making us immortal, would these scientists be evil? This would eliminate practically every problem that plagues humanity; war, poverty, disease, struggles of religion/ideology, etc...so I guess my question is, are the Reaper's evil because they are converting organics into Reapers, or because they don't give organics a choice?

But to answer the so the question raised in the thread, I agree with others in the thread who have already stated that good and evil are simply matters of perspective.

The moment even one single person was forced to join that collective consciousness against their will, then it would become evil, yes.  And not subjective, perspective, evil.  Outright, absolute, objective evil.

I don't know, I think it could be a morally grey area. if someone is in a coma brought on by a heart attack, and they have surgery performed on them without their consent, is that evil? Of course not right, because the person wasn't capable of making a decision? But what if beforehand that person has previously said to their spouse they never want to go under surgery? If the spouse allows the surgery and the person is saved, is that evil? By the way i'm not just pulling this out of thin air, this situation happened to someone I know.

My point with all of that is, not everyone would think it's evil for the Reapers to remove all problems from humanity by unifiying the race. Even if some people were unwilling and were forced to become a Reaper, from another perspective, it could be seen that forcing these people into becoming the Reaper is a good thing, and they would be evil if they allowed their bretheren to remain un-transcended.

If the Reapers offered it as a free choice, and did not force it, and did not wipe out any who are "unworthy" or who resist, then they'd be fine. 

I'd never sign up, but they'd be fine. 

But if I knew that someone was about to throw a switch to make every human being part of a collective consciousness, and that I'd have no choice in the matter, I'd blow my own brains out before I let it happen to me. 

Taking the choice away is what makes it evil.  Killing those who resist is what makes it evil.

It's not someone else's rightful choice to make, or to take from others.  It's the individual's choice, just as it's an individual's choice now to go live off the grid, completely seperated from the greater society, community, economy, etc, if they so desire.

[Cornughon]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

111987 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

111987 wrote...

Something interesting to consider: many people believe that what the Reaper's are doing to humans (and other organic species) by converting them into Reaper's is evil. But let's say that in real life, some scientists found a way to unify the entire human race into a collective conscious, preserving our species and making us immortal, would these scientists be evil? This would eliminate practically every problem that plagues humanity; war, poverty, disease, struggles of religion/ideology, etc...so I guess my question is, are the Reaper's evil because they are converting organics into Reapers, or because they don't give organics a choice?

But to answer the so the question raised in the thread, I agree with others in the thread who have already stated that good and evil are simply matters of perspective.

The moment even one single person was forced to join that collective consciousness against their will, then it would become evil, yes.  And not subjective, perspective, evil.  Outright, absolute, objective evil.

I don't know, I think it could be a morally grey area. if someone is in a coma brought on by a heart attack, and they have surgery performed on them without their consent, is that evil? Of course not right, because the person wasn't capable of making a decision? But what if beforehand that person has previously said to their spouse they never want to go under surgery? If the spouse allows the surgery and the person is saved, is that evil? By the way i'm not just pulling this out of thin air, this situation happened to someone I know.

My point with all of that is, not everyone would think it's evil for the Reapers to remove all problems from humanity by unifiying the race. Even if some people were unwilling and were forced to become a Reaper, from another perspective, it could be seen that forcing these people into becoming the Reaper is a good thing, and they would be evil if they allowed their bretheren to remain un-transcended.

If the Reapers offered it as a free choice, and did not force it, and did not wipe out any who are "unworthy" or who resist, then they'd be fine. 

I'd never sign up, but they'd be fine. 

But if I knew that someone was about to throw a switch to make every human being part of a collective consciousness, and that I'd have no choice in the matter, I'd blow my own brains out before I let it happen to me. 

Taking the choice away is what makes it evil.  Killing those who resist is what makes it evil.

It's not someone else's rightful choice to make, or to take from others.  It's the individual's choice, just as it's an individual's choice now to go live off the grid, completely seperated from the greater society, community, economy, etc, if they so desire.

So not offering a 'choice' would make them evil? Reapers see themselves as far superior beings compared to 'us' sentient species, they aren't driven by any moral choices, they just do what they have to do, and in their conception they can't think of any other way, or know any better than just fulfilling their cycles.

If someone creates an android, and programs it to kill every dog in one street (for example), would the robot be evil? No, because it's just programmed this way. Is the creator evil? For most people's point of view yes, but there might be people living who weren't really fond of those dogs taking a crap on the sidewalk, or being kept awake at nights by them yapping and barking every time.

Are Japanese evil for killing dolphins and whales just so they can keep eating sushi and sashimi? 

I personally, for instance, don't like being kept awake by some f***ing mosquito buzzing in my ear, or simply drinking from my blood, so I would have an itching bite the day after. The mosquito doesn't give me a choice if I want to give blood. because it does what it does (anlthough I personally wouldn't mind if mosquitos will be exterminated worldwide, a lot of them just spread some very pleasant diseases, and they actually don't have a real use in nature compared to most insects, but that's another story).