395 réponses à ce sujet

[utdan]

Wereparrot wrote...

Arcian wrote...

We are to them what animals are to us. Some animals become our trusted companions; others are killed or ignored because they lack the qualities we want or because they pose a threat to us. Others are hunted for their resources.

Humans do not massacre animals every few years like the reapers massacre sentient life. Sure some species have been hunted to extinction, but not as a result of an annual extinction cycle. We dominate animals, but we do not play God as far as pre-ordained, systematic and regular extinction cycles are concerned. It would appear that this is exactly what the reapers do, so in this there is a big difference.

True, but thats only because there are no animals on earth capable of overthrowing our dominance. The reapers eliminate all spacefaring races each cycle because if they didnt there would always be a chance that they could be overthrown/destroyed by that civilization. Ok they could maybe build galactic farms but i dont think we know enough about the reapers to determine if that would be a viable option for them, or even if thats a kinder fate for sentient species. 

[HTTP 404]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

HTTP 404 wrote...

there is no evil. Is it evil for humans to harvest crops for consumption?

Crops aren't thinking, feeling beings.

point is?  its natural to value life of animals over plants?  to whom? humans?

but to reapers, that value may not exist.  A human to a reaper is no far more significant than a plant. 

[Reptillius]

[quote]whoISthatgirl wrote...

[quote]Wereparrot wrote...

[quote]Arcian wrote...

We are to them what animals are to us. Some animals become our trusted companions; others are killed or ignored because they lack the qualities we want or because they pose a threat to us. Others are hunted for their resources.

[/quote]

Humans do not massacre animals every few years like the reapers massacre sentient life. Sure some species have been hunted to extinction, but not as a result of an annual extinction cycle. We dominate animals, but we do not play God as far as pre-ordained, systematic and regular extinction cycles are concerned. It would appear that this is exactly what the reapers do, so in this there is a big difference.
[/quote]


/quote]
In essence we are the galatic farm because there are things in ME1 and ME2 suggest that why they set this plan up the way they did to push us down certain paths and improve our tech up to certain points and not beyond is that it is our upgraded tech and byproducts of that tech that they need. Let it grow too far and the farm gets out of control. That's why Harvesting is an excellent word for their extinction cycle of the galaxy.
True, but thats only because there are no animals on earth capable of overthrowing our dominance. The reapers eliminate all spacefaring races each cycle because if they didnt there would always be a chance that they could be overthrown/destroyed by that civilization. Ok they could maybe build galactic farms but i dont think we know enough about the reapers to determine if that would be a viable option for them, or even if thats a kinder fate for sentient species.


edit: screw it. I hate trying to do quotes on these boards some days.

Modifié par Reptillius, 24 août 2011 - 07:21 .

[Valchier]

Great great topic. From a human perspective? Yes, they are evil, they are trying to kill us. That's reason enough for anybody to think them evil. From their perspective? I think that such a term doesn't even apply, they harvest us like they have been doing for thousands of years with other sentient races. It's not wrong, it's food. Anyhow I wouldn't be able to eat an animal who spoke back to me, so... That depends on the cultural paradigm.

[Reptillius]

when talking about valueing animals over plants. Keep in mind that outside of certain old beliefs that revered many natural things. It is only recently as an overall species that we even really advanced to the point that we could classify plants as alive by our basic criteria that alive had to mean it had to be able to do most everything that we could do/needed to do.

[Il Divo]

Dionkey wrote...

 So as I was mowing my lawn today, I stopped to think about something. All this grass is probably home to many insects and such. Daily, we kill 1000's of lifeforms by simply doing what we need to do. I mean, the majority of us assume that we are vastly superior to the majority of other organisms out there. So I ask; what makes us different from the Reapers?

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who does his thinking while mowing the lawn. A great time to let the mind roam free, odd as it may be.

To answer the question, we're no different than the Reapers. Much as we may harm/kill other species to fulfill our own wants and desires, the Reapers are simply doing the same. It's just that, as humans, we're more inclined to care about our own survival than all the ants we have stepped on in our history.

Modifié par Il Divo, 24 août 2011 - 07:26 .

[marstor05]

to them we have been little more than ants. we could understand them about as much as an ant understands quantum physics.

[stonbw1]

By our standards of 'evil', I'd say yes they are. In particularly, I'm under the impression that they are some advanced A.I. which may or may not have a sense of morality. (I guess I just get that impression from EDI who seems to have some 'feelings'). If they do have a sense of morality, then they could easily find a more humane way to extinguish cultures than the scenes in the trailers (or even ME2 for that matter). It certainly isn't an efficient way to exterminate a race of beings with ray guns, so there must be another reason, right? Evil!!

[SNascimento]

No, I don't think they are evil. But I don't think they are right either.

[Dean_the_Young]

Since they don't even try to explain their reasons or rational... yes.

[mauro2222]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

HTTP 404 wrote...

there is no evil. Is it evil for humans to harvest crops for consumption?

Crops aren't thinking, feeling beings.

They don`t think but plants and vegetables feel more pain than animals.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

IC: I just need to know one thing.... where they are.

However what caused the Prothean reaper to fail? Perhaps the Protheans had been doing cybernetic augmentation on themselves for a while, or used nanobots to extend their lives and enhance intelligence. We don't know and won't know for a long time.

[mauro2222]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

IC: I just need to know one thing.... where they are.

However what caused the Prothean reaper to fail? Perhaps the Protheans had been doing cybernetic augmentation on themselves for a while, or used nanobots to extend their lives and enhance intelligence. We don't know and won't know for a long time.

Probably, or maybe is the same reason for the why they only seems to need us.

[Abispa]

I'm willing to consider that the Reapers aren't evil, but that they are a race that cannot coexist peacefully with the galaxy at large. And since they've admitted to actually shaping the society of the current races so that they can be harvested, it's doubtful that anything "good" can come from coexisting with them, from the Citadel races' point of view. Given a choice between them or us, I choose us.

I am not evil for eating a chicken sandwich, but a chicken would be well within its rights to attempt to overthrow the current poultry balance of power. And woe unto us when they do find their Chicken Shepard.

Modifié par Abispa, 24 août 2011 - 08:10 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

mauro2222 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

HTTP 404 wrote...

there is no evil. Is it evil for humans to harvest crops for consumption?

Crops aren't thinking, feeling beings.

They don`t think but plants and vegetables feel more pain than animals.

I missed where you won the Nobel prize for showing that plants have a nervous system.

[Reptillius]

Abispa wrote...

I'm willing to consider that the Reapers aren't evil, but that they are a race that cannot coexist peacefully with the galaxy at large. And since they've admitted to actually shaping the society of the current races so that they can be harvested, it's doubtful that anything "good" can come from coexisting with them, from the Citadel races' point of view. Given a choice between them or us, I choose us.

I am not evil for eating a chicken sandwich, but a chicken would be well within its rights to attempt to overthrow the current poultry balance of power. And woe unto us when they do find their Chicken Shepard.

LOL. I don't eat chicken so maybe I'll be spared...

[Killjoy Cutter]

marstor05 wrote...

to them we have been little more than ants. we could understand them about as much as an ant understands quantum physics.

Nonsense. 

[Omega Torsk]

I would be inclined to believe that the Reapers' motives were underlyingly benevolent if they were just a little more mature, but their attitude reflects a comic book villain: "No, you are just an accident. We are of an epic leetness you cannot possibly comprehend. You are going to fail and your leaders will beg to serve us. Trolol."

So yeah, I either believe the Reapers are "evil" or they are just billion-year-old WMDs that repeat their prime directive every 50,000 years (as Vigil said; they are machines driven by motives organic life cannot truly comprehend). It would be interesting if the Reapers were doing this for the good of the galaxy (ie: Haestrom), but it's a little difficult to accept this, right now given their behavior.

[Whatever42]

"Us" is more important than "them".

"Them" only has rights as long as it benefits "us". I want you to be guaranteed life and liberty because I want life and liberty. I want you to be free from discrimination because I want to be free from discrimination.

Now, if I'm feeling safe and comfortable, I might extend rights to those who cannot threaten my rights, like fluffy the cat. I like fluffy. It costs me little to be nice to fluffy and makes me feel good. However, if it inconvenienced me too much or if fluffy wasn't cute, fluffy would be toast.

So we don't worry about stepping on ants. Most of us don't mind sending cows to the abattoir.

Everyone and everything is the same way. If Fluffy was really hungry and could eat you, fluffy would. There is no hypocrisy. It's the "circle of life".

So Reapers are not evil because they pursue their own ends. They might even think they're doing us a favor. But since "us" is more important than "them", they are evil. Regardless of the sins of "us" and the righteousness of "them", "us" always is more important.

[wetnasty]

Humans aren't ~evil~ either, but if you run up on a mother bear and her cubs, best believe you're gonna get ****ed up.

[Lucifer_Cheney]

I agree that evil is a subjective word that can only be determined by individuals personal beliefs (though most civilized governments would disagree). However, to say Reapers are no different than humans is misguided.

It is true that most humans think we are on top of the "food chain" both literally and metaphorically and have little regard for creatures we deem beneath us (killing them for sport, putting them in zoos, squishing them with our feet etc.). However, there are those who are opposed to such practices and have altered their lives accordingly (e.g. animal rights activist and vegans).

To my knowledge, no Reaper to date has displayed any kind of empathy toward an organic being that has compelled them to become introspective and assess their extinction cycle practices or even the right for organics to exist for purposes other than harvesting or slavery.

Modifié par Lucifer_Cheney, 24 août 2011 - 08:27 .

[mauro2222]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

HTTP 404 wrote...

there is no evil. Is it evil for humans to harvest crops for consumption?

Crops aren't thinking, feeling beings.

They don`t think but plants and vegetables feel more pain than animals.

I missed where you won the Nobel prize for showing that plants have a nervous system.

I didn`t present the research info. But they say that they feel pain.

[Jedi31293]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

"Us" is more important than "them".

"Them" only has rights as long as it benefits "us". I want you to be guaranteed life and liberty because I want life and liberty. I want you to be free from discrimination because I want to be free from discrimination.

Now, if I'm feeling safe and comfortable, I might extend rights to those who cannot threaten my rights, like fluffy the cat. I like fluffy. It costs me little to be nice to fluffy and makes me feel good. However, if it inconvenienced me too much or if fluffy wasn't cute, fluffy would be toast.

So we don't worry about stepping on ants. Most of us don't mind sending cows to the abattoir.

Everyone and everything is the same way. If Fluffy was really hungry and could eat you, fluffy would. There is no hypocrisy. It's the "circle of life".

So Reapers are not evil because they pursue their own ends. They might even think they're doing us a favor. But since "us" is more important than "them", they are evil. Regardless of the sins of "us" and the righteousness of "them", "us" always is more important.

^ 100% correct.

"From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!" - Anakin Skywalker

Excuse me for using such a horribly cliched example, but what Anakin says carries a lot of wieght. Evil is not a title, but simply a perspective. The Reapers are only "evil" because they threaten our existence. It is instinct for a species to viciously fight back when cornered and faced with annihilation.

To put it plainly: I'm sure there's a topic on the Reaper's discussion forums titled "Is Shepard really evil (philosophical debate)?".

Modifié par Jedi31293, 24 août 2011 - 08:44 .