395 réponses à ce sujet

[Killjoy Cutter]

Kant? No.

[Dionkey]

Many people are saying the Reapers are simply machines and that they can't feel, so they are not evil. The thing about this is that we do not know if the Reapers still have a organic core capable of emotion. Some people may say that how the Reapers treat us is inhumane, but how about the treatment of animals? We feed or livestock chemicals and slop until they are fat enough, then we throw them around and put them on a assembly line to boiled alive followed by getting their head sliced off. There are people who go hunting and kill their prey inhumanly. So I don't think the Reapers are evil considering we have committed the same crimes.

[el master pr]

You know what? I don't care if they're evil. Hell, they can be as wise and benevolent as Gandhi. They want to kill me, and I don't want to die. Living is my motive, and so they must die.

[Biotic Sage]

We don't even know what the reapers' motivations are yet, so I can't really discuss this until I play ME3. However, as many have said, regardless of their motivations, they are a threat to sapient life that cannot be reasoned or bargained with and therefore must be eliminated.

If I had to guess, I would say the reapers are something akin to the Borg.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 24 août 2011 - 08:54 .

[Dionkey]

Luc0s wrote...

Well, the reapers aren't "evil" but they are big jerks, that's for sure.


The reapers are forcing their beliefs/philosophy/lifestyle/whatever on the entire galaxy. That's not nice. We've seen plenty of religions trying to do the same every single day here on earth and most of us really don't like it.

I mean, how would you respond if the Muslims started a war on the rest of the world and then their reasoning behind it would be: "We're going to clean this world up by killing every single religious person, except for the atheists, they are special, they are "offered" a place among us".

And then Shepard, an atheist, would say: "Hey you Muslims, f*ck you."

And the Muslims would respond: "All other religions are inferior, but you atheists have potential! Join us and become one of us! We'll make a Muslim out of you and when you've become a Muslim yourself you'll see how nice it is! We're only trying to help Shepard!"


Of course I don't believe the Muslims will really do this, this is obviously just an example. But now all of you should see why the reapers are immoral jerks (ofcourse Saphra would disagree, but who cares?).

Islam is just a belief, it has nothing to do with the being. Humans fighting humans has no benefit. Reapers do what they do because they have.

[Zyandrel]

No.

The argument about us being sapient or sentient holds as much value as us claiming that we shouldn't eat animals because they're alive.

Animals are alive, humans are alive. Humans are sentient. Thus we rationalize that we can eat animals because we're sentient while they are not.

Reapers are sentient, humans are sentient. Reapers have understandings of things we do not, maybe even have a state of higher being. Humans do not have this state. Thus, they rationalize that we may be harvested because we lack this state.

Us being sentient, with the ability to feel, means nothing. The reapers simply view us as primative beyond measure. The reason they wipe out life to the point where nothing is left is a simple method of survival. If they left survivors, they'd advance to the point where they could fight back. To a reaper 50,000 years is nothing.

Imagine if cows evolved to the point of within 2 years they'd be able to make our heads explode. They'd remain non-sentient, but they simply evolve that way. It is inevitable that they grow head exploding powers. You'd bet that we'd either wipe out said species or, at very least, cull every single one of them every year and a half.

[Bring_the_rain]

There are a surprising amount "matter of fact" responses and "know it alls" in this thread. I don't think you can answer the question are reapers "evil" simply because it's a term that humans created base off of what we think is "moral" which than depends on the person themselves. It's all about relativity. The reapers could be viewing us as "evil" for all we know. Personally I think it all revolves around evolution and survival of the fittest. It's "selfish" that we look at ourselves as better than other species and make the decisions we do just as the Reapers are "evil" for choosing to wipe out other species (for their benefit most likely). I think the "cycle" of life tends to get broken or seem that way at least when a species evolves enough to form a consciousness/self awareness and use their intelligence and instinct rather than just instinct. Things like "moral" are created because of such sophistication and we make decisions based off of them. In the end I think it just boils down to staying alive; we're smarter than any other species we know of and we use it to our advantage. But I'm still speaking with ignorance because I don't really know what the Reapers want or the meaning of life or how it works and I really don't think anyone can know.

[Medhia Nox]

It cannot be known whether the Reapers are "evil".

1) It is a matter of perspective, and all perspectives are not equal. Even among humans - the perspective of the mentally handicapped is not the same as that of the genius (though, I think a large discussion could be made about which one is "clearer")

If a "Highest Perspective" - something a lot of people call God. A perspective that literally sees every truth in its natural state - and is not involved in any mystery or guesswork - knew something to be evil, then it would be - but this perspective cannot be achieved by humans.

Labeling something "evil" is inherently worthless.

2) Intent could be said to be another deciding factor.

But again, we do not have this value, so we cannot make any judgements. We are not aware of what becomes of the humans that are dissolved into the miasma that is "Reaper Juice".

Do they "ascend" to a higher form?

Do they "descend" into a hellish state of consciousness where they are in eternal suffering?

And, "Why" do the Reapers do it? Are they machines, and therefore programmed? Even if they could not be evil - because a knife is not evil for killing a man. It could be said that the Reapers were used toward evil ends - depending on the purpose for which they were designed (if they were designed).

Again - an unknown variable. Their intent cannot be discussed - yet.

3) How do they approach other species?

This is a clincher for me. They approach species with all the arrogance of a thing "playing at God". Without going too far down the rabbit whole - if there is a real God, it would possess infinite patience - since it has infinite power, and therefore possess no fear.

The Reapers are 1) Impatient. 2) Bombastic and 3) Vague.

They are "The Wizard of Oz" in the worst sense. Duplicitous and controlling. They use shock and awe tactics to cow others into submission.

They take no time to approach species in a spirit of understanding - and, they do not give any species the option to reject their viewpoint.

They are liars - and they are tyrants.

====

Those who deceive in a self-serving manner (con-men, charlatans, liars) - and those who deprive others of free will (murderers, thieves, rapists) are considered bad fairly universally on a human standard. When these events are committed against "Self" or "Loved One" it is also universally considered an evil act.

On a human angle - the Reapers are either 1) Evil or 2) Made for an Evil Purpose.

On a cosmic angle - there is no way to know.

====

What I will say is that they are used in the same way all "Big Bads" are used.

The authors of Mass Effect clearly intend them to be an antagonist and to be defeated (despite the assertions of certain insane forum goers).

So - since the mind of the "Makers" or the "Highest Perspective" can be known in this instance.

Yes - the Reapers are also evil on a "Fact" basis as far as the morality of the ME universe is concerned.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 24 août 2011 - 09:15 .

[Zyandrel]

Luc0s wrote...

Zyandrel wrote...

They'd remain non-sentient, but they simply evolve that way.

If you honestly believe animals aren't sentient then you need to think again.


With sentient I mean what the term 'sentience' REALLY means.

Sentience is the ability to feel and have subjective emotional experiences. Sentient beings can feel pain. They can feel stress and they can suffer. Some sentient beings can even feel sadness and lonelyness.
Having subjective emotional experiences and feelings is what makes a being sentient.

Now, would you argue that a cow cannot feel pain? You think a cow cannot suffer?

Are you going to just pick out the fact that I put 'sentient' instead of 'sapient'?  No actual comment about the other 95% of my post?

[Biotic Sage]

Zyandrel wrote...

Are you going to just pick out the fact that I put 'sentient' instead of 'sapient'?  No actual comment about the other 95% of my post?

Welcome to the boards! haha

[Medhia Nox]

@Luc0s: I wonder - do you think the Reapers consider you sentient? Or - do you think they consider you, like you consider animals?

[Whatever42]

Peter Singer wrote an interesting book on ethics and the ability to suffer.

Ultimately, he reasoned, that if even if an animal cannot suffer as much as we can suffer, why would we make it suffer at all? If we had to make it suffer for our survival then that would be one thing. However, we often make animals suffer for small amounts of enjoyment. In his ethical system, to cause suffering in another for the small luxury of enjoyment is evil.

Of course, there is the presumption that you have bought into his ethical system, which is really just an intellectual construct of moral principles.

Others adhere to a more simple set of moral principles that state we evolved to eat other organisms. It may not be nice but its what we do, it's what all animals do, and there is no reason to stop except a hyper-developed sense of empathy.

Reapers seem to think in evolutionary terms so they don't see themselves as evil.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 24 août 2011 - 09:20 .

[Medhia Nox]

I did misread your post - my apologies.

How about plants? Do you think they are sentient? If not - the questions I asked still apply.

[Zyandrel]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I did misread your post - my apologies.

How about plants? Do you think they are sentient? If not - the questions I asked still apply.

It is not a matter of Sentience or Sapience.

Humans deem none Sapient life, such as animals, food because they lack a certain state.

Reapers are doing the same thing, simply the state we lack and they have is something we don't know about.

[Icinix]

Only from the point of view of the race being reaped.

[Whatever42]

Zyandrel wrote...

It is not a matter of Sentience or Sapience.

Humans deem none Sapient life, such as animals, food because they lack a certain state.

Reapers are doing the same thing, simply the state we lack and they have is something we don't know about.

Humans in many parts of the world don't value human life. At all. While reducing something to a lesser status is useful in rationalizing cruelty against them, would Reapers really care enough to rationalize?