395 réponses à ce sujet

[Whatever42]

Luc0s wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Reapers seem to think in evolutionary terms so they don't see themselves as evil.

Even if the reapers do what they do because they think their existence is the next stage in evolution, it's still not ethical.


What the reapers basically do is the same as Social Darwinism, or eugenics. I believe eugenics isn't ethical.

According to your ethical system. Ethics are not math. In math 1 + 1  always = 2. Ethical systems are based on a large set of assumptions that most people rarely question. 

And btw, they don't practice social darwinism or eugenics. They are not breeding us for a particular purpose. They are not culling the weak. They are consuming us - probably not for nutrition but for their own evolution.

[Zyandrel]

Luc0s wrote...

Zyandrel wrote...

Humans deem none Sapient life, such as animals, food because they lack a certain state.

That's not the reason why most humans eat animals as food.


Some animals eath other animals. They are carnivores or omnivores.
Humans are animals.
Humans are omnivores.
Therefor most humans eat animals.


I however decided NOT to eat animals because I disagree with the meat industry and how we (mis)treat animals. That does not mean I disagree with eating animals in general (I have no problem with carnivorous animals).

If there was an animal that was proven to have sapience we'd likely not eat it.

[Mister Mida]

As I've written in my sig: There's no good or evil, only the illusion of it. In reality humans and other animals do always what's right for themselves at the expense of others, what most consider evil. So evil equals nature in my opinion, and yet it isn't since that's the way it's created by whatever or whoever. No matter how the Reapers came to be, they just act out of their nature.

[Biotic Sage]

People in this thread are all approaching this topic in different ways. For a more focused conversation, it should be retitled, "Are Reapers Evil from a(n) X Ethical Perspective?" where X could equal:

Virtue, Deontological, Consequentialist, Pragmatist

[Biotic Sage]

Luc0s wrote...

With sapience you mean self-awareness? Like chimpanzees, dolphins and elephants?

Sentient beings and sapient beings have self-awareness.  Sapient beings can reason and make judgments.

[Ianamus]

Yes, the Reapers are evil, at least in our understanding of the term. 

Humans may kill many insects and other creatures throughout our lives, but in the past we needed to to survive. Of course, in modern times we do not. However, it should be noted that animals have shorter lifespans and are not sentinent- they are not self-aware. While that does not justify treatment of animals (I'm a vegetarian myself) It is not the same as deliberately making whole intelligent species extinct against their will, which is what the Reapers do. 

Humans have to grow food and eat it to survive, and that the insects try to eat that food means that they need to be killed for us to be healthy. The Reapers do not seem to actually need to kill off the species of the universe to survive, and while you may argue that it is for reproduction, the Reapers seem perfectly capeable of survivng without Harvesting the galaxy. 

It's important to make distinctions between intelligence and such. Creatures like insects, with only rudimentry intelligence are also numerous, and their lives are worth less than those of humans, becuase unlike insects, humans understand who they are and have the potential to not only understand life- but also to protect it in the future when it would naturally die out. 

If we found animals that were self-aware (I think some like dolphins and some apes are debateable) Then they would have higher rights than other animals. Indeed, I think that dolphins and intelligent chimpanzee's do have higher rights than say a spider. No matter how more advanced humans become, sentience and self-awareness is where the line is drawn between creatures with human-level rights and those without.

What the Reapers are doing is killing off intelligent creatures, and whether or not their twisted morality deems it right or wrong, in the eyes of humans, it would count as evil. If an insane person tries to 'help' somebody by killing them, are they in the right because they have different ideas of morality? Of course not. If the person was a very intelligent person who believes themselves to be above human beins, would it be right then? No, it would not. The same counts for the Reapers.

Modifié par EJ107, 24 août 2011 - 09:41 .

[Callidus Thorn]

Personally I think the Reapers are absolute evil. They force growing civilizations down certain paths, destroying what they could be to set them up to be harvested with the minmum possible level of risk. That is cold, calculated genocide on a galactic scale.

[Pockles]

It's a matter of survival, not morality.

[Biotic Sage]

Luc0s wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

With sapience you mean self-awareness? Like chimpanzees, dolphins and elephants?

Sentient beings and sapient beings have self-awareness.  Sapient beings can reason and make judgments.

Sentience =/= self-awareness. Most animals aren't self-aware, yet they are sentient.

Most animals can reason and make judgement. But they aren't sapient.

The term "sapience" is a difficult term that means different things in different fields.

No living thing that we know of besides humans can reason and make judgments.  By reason I don't mean react and learn, I mean logical faculty.  Sapient is a term that is used almost exclusively as a way to denote human characteristics in fictional scenarios (like AI or alien races).  And maybe you are using "self-aware" in a different way than I am, but I mean self-aware in that the organism is aware that it is physically occupying space.  Bacteria, for example, is not self-aware.  Squirrels will avoid fire though, so that's what I mean by self-aware.

[Jessihatt]

As I said on your poll with minor editing:
They're not just machines. They are part organic. They have a conscience - which has been theorised as being why they need Shepard's body. We don't know the full story yet. Their methods *are* evil. Their intentions may not be.
But I believe they are evil.

[Ianamus]

Luc0s wrote...

Sentience =/= self-awareness. Most animals aren't self-aware, yet they are sentient.

Most animals can reason and make judgements. But they aren't sapient.

The term "sapience" is a difficult term that means different things in different fields.

Sentience =/= Sapience 

Sentience is self awareness:

In the philosophy of consciousness, "sentience" can refer to the ability of any entity to have subjective perceptual experiences, or "qualia". This is distinct from other aspects of the mind and consciousness, such as creativity, intelligence, sapience, self-awareness, and intentionality (the ability to have thoughts that mean something or are "about" something)

Sapience is different:

Sapience is often defined as wisdom, or the ability of an organism or entity to act with appropriate judgment.

Modifié par EJ107, 24 août 2011 - 09:48 .

[Callidus Thorn]

Luc0s wrote...

Callidus Thorn wrote...

Personally I think the Reapers are absolute evil. They force growing civilizations down certain paths, destroying what they could be to set them up to be harvested with the minmum possible level of risk. That is cold, calculated genocide on a galactic scale.

Kinda like we do with "our" cows, pigs and chickens for our meat production?

I guess you're also a vegetarian like me?

Yes because we all know about the vast and cultured civilisation cows, pigs and chickens had before they were subjugated by mankind<_<

[Ianamus]

Luc0s wrote...

So what the reapers do is different because the organics they harvest have cultures, while the organics we humans harvest don't?

Don't you see that these cows, pigs and chickens are sentient beings that can suffer and feel pain?


I mean honestly, I don't try to turn you into a vegetarian (would be awesome if you became one though), but I'm just trying to put things in perspective here.

They are not  Sentient. It could be argued that they are Sapient, but they are not sentient. Read a few posts up where I linked proper definitions of the terms. 

Modifié par EJ107, 24 août 2011 - 09:52 .

[Biotic Sage]

Edit* Double post sorry

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 24 août 2011 - 09:57 .

[Biotic Sage]

EJ107 wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

So what the reapers do is different because the organics they harvest have cultures, while the organics we humans harvest don't?

Don't you see that these cows, pigs and chickens are sentient beings that can suffer and feel pain?


I mean honestly, I don't try to turn you into a vegetarian (would be awesome if you became one though), but I'm just trying to put things in perspective here.

They are not  Sentient. It could be argued that they are Sapient, but they are not sentient. Read a few posts up where I linked proper definitions of the terms. 

No no no.  It could not be argued that cows or any animal other than humans are sapient.  You have to first be sentient in order to qualify for sapience.

How can someone possess logical faculty, wisdom, and agency if they have no concept of self-awareness?

It could, however, be argued that some animals are sentient, but this is still a debated issue.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 24 août 2011 - 09:56 .

[Maike91]

Luc0s wrote...


Only a few species on earth are self-aware. Those are humans, some great apes (like chimpanzees), dolphins and elephants.

And a few birds 

[Ianamus]

Luc0s wrote...

No, this is false.

Sentience is not self-awareness.

Sentience is the ability to be consious, to feel, to precieve and to have subjective experiences. Nothing more, nothing less.


Self-awareness is something else and not all animals have it (while almost all animals are sentient).

Self-awareness is the ability to recognize yourself as an individual, seperate from the rest of the world. A self-awareness being can experience "the self".


Only a few species on earth are self-aware. Those are humans, some great apes (like chimpanzees), dolphins and elephants.

To be honest, finding proper definitions for these terms is hard at best, becuase they are vague. But it can be generally agreed that (like you said) most animals are not self aware- which means that what the Reapers do is a bad comparison to what humans do on Earth. 

And even if what humans do was  compareable to what the Reapers do, that would not make what the Reapers do any less wrong. 

[Ianamus]

Luc0s wrote...

I believe you mixed up "sentience" and "sapience".


Read my previous posts to learn the difference between sentience and sapience.

All I know is what the internet and my dictionary are telling me. I didn't come up with definitions for these words. 

And no matter what words you use, it does not change the fact that animals do not have the complex emotions and intelligence that humans and the other races in Mass Effect do. 

Modifié par EJ107, 24 août 2011 - 10:04 .