395 réponses à ce sujet

[Biotic Sage]

Luc0s wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

It could, however, be argued that some animals are sentient, but this is still a debated issue.

It's not a debated issue. It's pretty much proven that almost all animals are sentient.

Our laws on animal rights are based on the fact that animals are sentient.


However, if they are also self-aware is still a debated issue. We know some animals that are self-aware, such as the dolphins, chimpanzees and elephants.

http://plato.stanfor...ousness-animal/

If this isn't a debated issue I'm not sure what is.  You are entitled to your opinion and many share it, but to say it isn't debated is false.

[mauro2222]

Luc0s wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

It could, however, be argued that some animals are sentient, but this is still a debated issue.

It's not a debated issue. It's pretty much proven that almost all animals are sentient.

Our laws on animal rights are based on the fact that animals are sentient.


However, if they are also self-aware is still a debated issue. We know some animals that are self-aware, such as the dolphins, chimpanzees and elephants.

Elephans are self aware? Interesting. Im going to find some info and learn about it.

[mauro2222]

Luc0s wrote...

The fact that animals aren't self-aware doesn't make what we do to them any less "evil".

Animals do  feel pain and the can  suffer. That's because they are  sentient.


So should we just ignore the animal's ability to feel pain and suffer just because it isn't self-aware?

True, and the methods used to make food of them are barbaric, foie gras specially, those ducks explode basically, and cows, well, is disgusting. Im not going to turn vegan or something because I like meat, but we don`t have the technological advance to make syntetized food, yet <_<

Modifié par mauro2222, 24 août 2011 - 10:06 .

[Biotic Sage]

I believe we should respect all living things, sentient or not, so we are ultimately on the same page Luc0s. We are getting bogged down in terms and definitions which really only amounts to an argument over semantics. I don't agree with the the industrial treatment of animals either.

[Ianamus]

Luc0s wrote...

The fact that animals aren't self-aware doesn't make what we do to them any less "evil".

Animals do  feel pain and the can  suffer. That's because they are  sentient.


So should we just ignore the animal's ability to feel pain and suffer just because it isn't self-aware?

No, and that's one of the reasons why I'm Vegetarian. But this is a debate about whether the Reapers are evil, not  whether killing animals is evil. 

Modifié par EJ107, 24 août 2011 - 10:08 .

[Biotic Sage]

Back on topic to reapers in relation to harvesting humans and other human-like (I would say sapient, but haha) alien species. No more animal discussions because obviously humans are not analogous to animals, no matter what definitions of sentient/sapient one uses.

Reapers need to be killed, pragmatically, so they don't kill us (pragmatic ethics)

Reapers may or may not be evil because we don't know their intent (deontology)

Reapers are evil because their actions cause deaths of humans (consequentialist ethics)

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 24 août 2011 - 10:13 .

[RAF1940]

I'm assuming that what they do is needed to sustain them, so I'll say no.

[mauro2222]

Luc0s wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

True, and the methods used to make food of them are barbaric, foie gras specially, those ducks explode basically, and cows, well, is disgusting. Im not going to turn vegan or something because I like meat, but we don`t have the technological advance to make syntetized food, yet <_<

Yes, thank you for admitting that.

I don't expect you to become vegan (I'm not vegan myself), but you might consider vegetarianism (I'm a vegetarian). It really isn't hard to adapt your diet to a vegetarian diet. It was much easier for me than I thought. Really, think about it, if you really care about the animals and their rights, like I do.

Yes, I tried, but I can`t live without meat, don`t ask me why... Now I`m hungry, and your avatar isn`t helping, that ork is a huge brocoli.

[Callidus Thorn]

The Reapers seem to harvest civilizations for two reasons:
To create new Reapers, basically reproduction, and to prevent the possiblity of a race rising up and destroying them. This is why I say the Reapers are evil.

[mikejcroc]

I don't get why people say things like "complex emotion." If you think about it, we just apply the basic emotions and their sub-emotions (Love, joy, surprise, anger, sadness, and fear) to complex situations.

What is evil and what is good is all from perspective. Everything we do is evil to something, our immune systems constantly fight off (and kill) viruses and harmful bacteria. Someone will say, "Oh, but they don't have complex emotions!" That is completely irrelevant! That would be like saying, humans can't see in infa-red, so they are *blank.*

My point being that you don't judge something for what it doesn't have/do, but for what does does have/do. I do not think that the Reapers are evil, we just prefer our individuality rather than being like the geth.

Modifié par mikejcroc, 24 août 2011 - 10:23 .

[Ianamus]

Luc0s wrote...

You're a vegetarian? Cool!


I don't consider killing animals evil, as I explained earlier.

What I think is evil is how we raise and use our lifestock as products and not as living beings. We raise cows in terrible conditions. Then we slaughter them in an even more terrible way. I think we humans are just as "evil" as the reapers are because of our current meat industry.


I have nothing against HUNTING for meat. But what we humans do with "our" animals is just terrible.

I see the reapers in the same way. They herd us, make sure we develop along the paths they desire, then when we're ready for the slaughter, they come through the mass-relay, build a reaper from one species and slaughter the rest.

Yes, I agree completely with this. Somebody once told me that not eating meat wasn't "manly"- to which I said: Hunting for meat is manly, waddling up to KFC to buy chicken bits is not. 

Either way, yes I agree that animal treatment is very poor, but I do not think it is comparable to what the Reapers do. 

Luc0s wrote...

There are tons of vegetarian meat-replacements that are just as tasty as real meat!

Most of the ones I find taste like cardboard  Quorn's alright.

Modifié par EJ107, 24 août 2011 - 10:25 .

[K_Tabris]

Anything wanting to commit mass genocide is evil.

[mauro2222]

Luc0s wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Yes, I tried, but I can`t live without meat, don`t ask me why... Now I`m hungry, and your avatar isn`t helping, that ork is a huge brocoli.

There are tons of vegetarian meat-replacements that are just as tasty as real meat!

Also, brocoli is good! I love brocoli!

In fact, the orks are more like living, talking mushrooms (they really are!). 

Mmm... You`re starting to give me a few ideas
I love brocoli too, is something childish but I always picture myself as eating a huge tree and stomping over a city... Yeah... I have never grown up

Modifié par mauro2222, 24 août 2011 - 10:35 .

[VaultingFrog]

NovinhaShepard wrote...

Anything wanting to commit mass genocide is evil.

Even if it means saving you and your loved ones?

Its a matter of perspective.

But more importantly I am better looking than the Reapers so why would I care if they are evil. My good looks make me safe.

[Davie McG]

I was pondering this a few months ago and came across a short video that hit the nail on the head, so I thought I should share.

Link.

Modifié par Davie McG, 24 août 2011 - 10:49 .

[K_Tabris]

VaultingFrog wrote...

NovinhaShepard wrote...

Anything wanting to commit mass genocide is evil.

Even if it means saving you and your loved ones?

LOL

Reapers,  and loved ones?  

I can see it now.  Harbinger crying over his lost baby, the human reaper fetus.

[MrSuperCrazyAwesome]

Maybe the OP is right, and they harvest life about 50,000 years like farmers harvest wheat at the same time, once a year, or like I mow my lawn about once every three weeks. Honestly, I would probably sound a bit like Sovereign if a blad of grass threatened me. Sure, that sounds a bit weird, but in the Reaper's history nobody had threatened them either. The Reapers are wading into uncharted territory and we will use this to our advantage.

[InkognitoY]

Somebody who does something evil rarely realizes that it is wrong. When you think about it, and that picture in the OP is perfect, nobody cares if we die, only we do.

If anything the Reapers think they are doing us a favor by preserving us eternally (although unless they can escape into other universes, eventually they'll die too).

EDIT - don't say that genocide is always evil. Trying to see the world through a strictly black and white filter never works, because there will always be a situation or circumstances that can justify something you would consider "evil."

Modifié par InkognitoY, 24 août 2011 - 11:34 .