395 réponses à ce sujet

[Dionkey]

Luc0s wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

 Islam is just a belief, it has nothing to do with the being. Humans fighting humans has no benefit. Reapers do what they do because they have.

It doesn't matter that Islam is just a belief. The motivation that drives the reapers is also just a belief.

What matters is, that these reapers force their beliefs on us. They force their way of life on the galaxy. They have no right to do that.

They do it to survive. They have no belief, they simply need to reproduce. Is it simply dominance of another species, much like we do on Earth. Religious dominance out of ignoranance (regardless of religion) is much different. 

[Biotic Sage]

Luc0s wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

http://plato.stanfor...ousness-animal/

If this isn't a debated issue I'm not sure what is.  You are entitled to your opinion and many share it, but to say it isn't debated is false.

That article is about the general consciousness within animals. It's about sentience, self-awareness and just consciousness in general.

What is mostly debated in that article, is the self-awareness (or lack therof) within animals.


The article clearly states, that the actual controversy is about self-conciousness (e,g, self-awareness) within animals. Not about sentience within animals.


That the animals are sentient is pretty much a proven fact and accepted by almost everyone. Why else do you think we have such things as 'animal rights' laws?

Even in the face of evidence, huh?.  *Sigh*  Ok I'm going to assume that you didn't read the entire thing, or even do a quick ctrl F for the word "sentien" (to get results for both "sentient" and "sentience").  Also, I'm assuming you didn't read my earlier post about the futility of arguing semantics. 

Read the parts in the article where the words sentience or sentient are.  Or just read the summary at the end; you will see that it says "Some philosophers have defended the view that animals are not
sentient."  You can go from there.

Edit* Also, you have gotten me back on this topic when I wanted to get away from it and move on to the original debate of whether or not reapers are evil.  Dammit.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 24 août 2011 - 11:47 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Luc0s: I'm a little late - but concerning "forcing animals to grow down our own determined parameters".

There were hundreds of varieties of apples in the world - until humans started cultivating apples. Now - the biodiversity of the apple has been destroyed.

Humans do it with EVERYTHING they touch.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Dionkey wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

 Islam is just a belief, it has nothing to do with the being. Humans fighting humans has no benefit. Reapers do what they do because they have.

It doesn't matter that Islam is just a belief. The motivation that drives the reapers is also just a belief.

What matters is, that these reapers force their beliefs on us. They force their way of life on the galaxy. They have no right to do that.

They do it to survive. They have no belief, they simply need to reproduce. Is it simply dominance of another species, much like we do on Earth. Religious dominance out of ignoranance (regardless of religion) is much different. 

They're not animals driven by instinct, they're thinking beings committing genocide against other billions of other thinking beings out of selfish need and/or ideological conviction. 

Or do you not understand the difference between a person swatting a fly, and a person murdering another person?   What the Repears do is the latter, not the former. 

[Dave of Canada]

*hasn't really read anything in the thread*

There is no such thing as good or evil, they are words people use to make themselves feel better. The world is a lot less complex if you can call the person you oppose evil and yourself as the good guy.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 25 août 2011 - 12:23 .

[Dionkey]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

 Islam is just a belief, it has nothing to do with the being. Humans fighting humans has no benefit. Reapers do what they do because they have.

It doesn't matter that Islam is just a belief. The motivation that drives the reapers is also just a belief.

What matters is, that these reapers force their beliefs on us. They force their way of life on the galaxy. They have no right to do that.

They do it to survive. They have no belief, they simply need to reproduce. Is it simply dominance of another species, much like we do on Earth. Religious dominance out of ignoranance (regardless of religion) is much different. 

They're not animals driven by instinct, they're thinking beings committing genocide against other billions of other thinking beings out of selfish need and/or ideological conviction. 

Or do you not understand the difference between a person swatting a fly, and a person murdering another person?   What the Repears do is the latter, not the former. 

Without the ability of voice communication, how could reapers communicate to sentient races? Do ants speak? Perhaps we can't hear them or can't understand them. Yet we have stepped and posoined trillions of them. Are we evil? I think not, they get in our way. We take billions of livestock a year to the chopping block for food. Do we need meat? No, but people enjoy it.  Saying we are entitled to anything but the chance to fight for survival is selfish.

[VaultingFrog]

NovinhaShepard wrote...

VaultingFrog wrote...

NovinhaShepard wrote...

Anything wanting to commit mass genocide is evil.

Even if it means saving you and your loved ones?

LOL

Reapers,  and loved ones?  

I can see it now.  Harbinger crying over his lost baby, the human reaper fetus.

That was taken out of context entirely.

They said that anyone who does mass genocide is evil. I am posing the situation of them or somebody on their side doing it to save that individual or their family/loved ones ect...

It is a matter of perspective. If I commit genocide to save my family/loved ones/race I dont believe I am evil or wrong. I am dealing with a threat, nothing more.

More over would not the rest of the galaxy be percieved the same way when it comes to the Reapers? Would we/they not be commiting genocide to the Reapers in this conflict?

Again it is a matter of perspective.

[armass]

I don't know...

A thing that kills off entire species, makes something like husks and controls minds through indoctrination just screams "evil" to me.

[Swimming Ferret]

I think Reaper's are 'culling.' They kill off the space faring races to preserve the rest of the galaxy for the future generations of creatures. The sun on Haelstrorm is apparently dying due to the eezo, so it's like the Reaper's kill off the spare faring races to prevent more suns from dying and killing off that solar systems life form. It's like killing off rabbits when they become too destructive; the Reaper's believe it's a necessity.

[KotorEffect3]

I get where the OP is going with this but Reapers are the one thing in the game I like to think of as being evil and must be destroyed. When I was in places like the Derelict Reaper and the CB I felt like I was in the heart of evil.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Dionkey wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

 Islam is just a belief, it has nothing to do with the being. Humans fighting humans has no benefit. Reapers do what they do because they have.

It doesn't matter that Islam is just a belief. The motivation that drives the reapers is also just a belief.

What matters is, that these reapers force their beliefs on us. They force their way of life on the galaxy. They have no right to do that.

They do it to survive. They have no belief, they simply need to reproduce. Is it simply dominance of another species, much like we do on Earth. Religious dominance out of ignoranance (regardless of religion) is much different. 

They're not animals driven by instinct, they're thinking beings committing genocide against other billions of other thinking beings out of selfish need and/or ideological conviction. 

Or do you not understand the difference between a person swatting a fly, and a person murdering another person?   What the Repears do is the latter, not the former. 

Without the ability of voice communication, how could reapers communicate to sentient races? Do ants speak? Perhaps we can't hear them or can't understand them. Yet we have stepped and posoined trillions of them. Are we evil? I think not, they get in our way. We take billions of livestock a year to the chopping block for food. Do we need meat? No, but people enjoy it.  Saying we are entitled to anything but the chance to fight for survival is selfish.

Actually, historically, meat was a very good thing for the human species.

Now, as for the Reapers, your statement about them not being able to communicate with other species makes me doubt that you've actually played the game. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

Evil.


/thread

[100k]

Swimming Ferret wrote...

I think Reaper's are 'culling.' They kill off the space faring races to preserve the rest of the galaxy for the future generations of creatures. The sun on Haelstrorm is apparently dying due to the eezo, so it's like the Reaper's kill off the spare faring races to prevent more suns from dying and killing off that solar systems life form. It's like killing off rabbits when they become too destructive; the Reaper's believe it's a necessity.

Exactly my theory. They don't kill us out of spite. They kill us because it is logical for galactic presevation. And, because they exist on a "plain" above our own (the union of entire species), they see organic life -- particularly individuals -- as meaningless and tiny. That's why they showed an initial -- if not appreciation -- interest in the geth. The geth are Legion, a primitive and basic level of what the Reapers aspire to. True unity.

[Bluko]

The Reapers aren't evil, but they certainly aren't nice either.

Though you can't really blame them. A lot of species simply aren't going to be diplomatic or passive about the process of becoming a Reaper. There's also the fact that primitive creatures either shy away from or attack things they don't understand because they perceive it as a threat. Even though the species of the galaxy are advanced enough to have mastered FTL travel, obviously when faced with something like the Geth or Reapers they will feel threatened by them.

Really the only way the Reapers can do thing is if they use a strong hand. They aren't going to ask us nicely if we want to become Reapers because more often then not we (Organics) will say no. It's much simpler for them to launch a surprise attack and gather as many individuals as possible.

I believe that the Reapers believe they are the most advanced form of life. I suspect the Reapers were an originally insectoid type race that was the first to dominate the Galaxy probably as far back as 100 million years ago. What happened is with the inclusion of technology the original Reaper species discovered they were no longer evolving as they could make up for any decificieny or shortcoming with technology. (This is actually something suspected to be true of humans as there is very little that threatens us other then disease. The fact just about everyone alive can live to have children means evolution has pretty much come to a stop for us.)

So if you can no longer evolve in the typical biological sense what do you do? Well you either remain as you are until something finally manages to kill you (disease, famine, war, etc.) or you choose to fully embrace technology. The Reapers have obviously decided to become fully machine. However one drawback with machines is that they can only replicate themselves. They cannot really create unique individuals (although that's a bit questionable as there's likely a way to do that as well). So the Reapers must still rely on Organics to provide a new sapience for themselves as the Reapers are still living things in a sense.


Ultimately I bet the Reapers assume that even if they were wiped out, eventually other Organic races would come to the same conclusion: that being become something like Reapers themselves. Which probably isn't too far from the truth. I'm quite certain that in perhaps a few more thousand years Humans will become fully integrated with computers and the like to the point where we are no longer Human or reproduce through convetional means. I'd say by 2500 all Humans will likely be genetically tailored by their respective parents... so no more Jerry Springer, but probably a lot less things like cancer by then.Whether we choose to maintain physical bodies as we do now is uncertain. When you can upload or put your intelligence into whatever you want who knows what we'll end up like...

[Dionkey]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Actually, historically, meat was a very good thing for the human species.

Now, as for the Reapers, your statement about them not being able to communicate with other species makes me doubt that you've actually played the game. 

No, I am saying without the ability of voice amplification and such, how could they understand what someone who is 1/1,000,000 of their size would be saying? This is the same concept for insects.

[Sundance31us]

[Apocsapel91]

I don't they think they're evil.

[DoNotIngest]

*Skips entire thread*



No, they're not evil. And why do we bother living? We'll die anyway. Mass suicide anyone?

[nitefyre410]

Yes Evil, Face melting, people melting, civilization destroying, baby eating, puppy kick, kitten punching, Satan Hellfire and Brimstone approved... EVIL

[100k]

Bluko wrote...

The Reapers aren't evil, but they certainly aren't nice either.

Though you can't really blame them. A lot of species simply aren't going to be diplomatic or passive about the process of becoming a Reaper. There's also the fact that primitive creatures either shy away from or attack things they don't understand because they perceive it as a threat. Even though the species of the galaxy are advanced enough to have mastered FTL travel, obviously when faced with something like the Geth or Reapers they will feel threatened by them.

Really the only way the Reapers can do thing is if they use a strong hand. They aren't going to ask us nicely if we want to become Reapers because more often then not we (Organics) will say no. It's much simpler for them to launch a surprise attack and gather as many individuals as possible.

I believe that the Reapers believe they are the most advanced form of life. I suspect the Reapers were an originally insectoid type race that was the first to dominate the Galaxy probably as far back as 100 million years ago. What happened is with the inclusion of technology the original Reaper species discovered they were no longer evolving as they could make up for any decificieny or shortcoming with technology. (This is actually something suspected to be true of humans as there is very little that threatens us other then disease. The fact just about everyone alive can live to have children means evolution has pretty much come to a stop for us.)

So if you can no longer evolve in the typical biological sense what do you do? Well you either remain as you are until something finally manages to kill you (disease, famine, war, etc.) or you choose to fully embrace technology. The Reapers have obviously decided to become fully machine. However one drawback with machines is that they can only replicate themselves. They cannot really create unique individuals (although that's a bit questionable as there's likely a way to do that as well). So the Reapers must still rely on Organics to provide a new sapience for themselves as the Reapers are still living things in a sense.


Ultimately I bet the Reapers assume that even if they were wiped out, eventually other Organic races would come to the same conclusion: that being become something like Reapers themselves. Which probably isn't too far from the truth. I'm quite certain that in perhaps a few more thousand years Humans will become fully integrated with computers and the like to the point where we are no longer Human or reproduce through convetional means. I'd say by 2500 all Humans will likely be genetically tailored by their respective parents... so no more Jerry Springer, but probably a lot less things like cancer by then.Whether we choose to maintain physical bodies as we do now is uncertain. When you can upload or put your intelligence into whatever you want who knows what we'll end up like...

Agreed.

[JBONE27]

Arcian wrote...

No, the Reapers are not evil. They are not driven by cruelty or spite. Their motivations are much more benevolent, at least from their perspective.

We are to them what animals are to us. Some animals become our trusted companions; others are killed or ignored because they lack the qualities we want or because they pose a threat to us. Others are hunted for their resources.

Some animals choose to bend beneath the will of a master. Others fight for their freedom, til death if needed.

Sound familiar?

  I think benevolent is the wrong word.  I'd say nessisary would be more acurate.

[Zu Long]

To paraphrase a badass wizard, "good and evil" allows too much interpretation. I prefer "US and THEM." Gets rid of the gray area.

[Medhia Nox]

@100K - if the Reapers were "free" of such things as "spite" - then they would also be free of arrogance. And they are most certainly not free of arrogance.

I don't believe what they do is spite... I believe what they do is harvest sentient species to create another of their own. Logic doesn't even come into the argument.

The existing Reapers have no reason to harvest organics. They do not "eat" organics. They will not die if they do not continue the cycle. It is simply a form of reproduction - and robots possessed with an AI intelligence would not necessarily come to the conclusion the replication was a "biological imperative".

People who write fiction about AI always fail to think outside of human terms and corrupt AI processes with all sorts of human emotions.

What the Reapers do - they do simply because they can. They are the ultimate expression of technology/science without ethics. They are the "Devil" of science-fiction. Want better make-up? Torture a few rabbits. Want human organs? Torture mice. The principle exists in real life - the Reapers are just an extreme.

Shepard - and the current ME universe - is simply saying: "Like hell."

It would be the equivalent of the other 5 million animal and 250,000 plant species deciding - in unison - to tell Humans exactly what they think about what humans are doing to planet Earth.

I'd wager - if those species could talk - they would most certainly consider humans "evil".

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 25 août 2011 - 04:13 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

I think this might be the most rediculous concentration of justification and sympathy for genocidal monsters that I've seen in one thread.

The Reapers are trying to commit galactic genocide, to murder billions, again, for the umpteenth time. End of story. There is no justification, there is no understanding, there is no necessity, there is no reasoning.

Next thing you know, someone will be talking about how Mr H loved his dogs and Eva Braun, so he wasn't such a bad guy... 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 25 août 2011 - 04:16 .