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Are the Reapers REALLY evil? (Philosophical debate)


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#151
Dionkey

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Bluko wrote...

The Reapers aren't evil, but they certainly aren't nice either.

Though you can't really blame them. A lot of species simply aren't going to be diplomatic or passive about the process of becoming a Reaper. There's also the fact that primitive creatures either shy away from or attack things they don't understand because they perceive it as a threat. Even though the species of the galaxy are advanced enough to have mastered FTL travel, obviously when faced with something like the Geth or Reapers they will feel threatened by them.

Really the only way the Reapers can do thing is if they use a strong hand. They aren't going to ask us nicely if we want to become Reapers because more often then not we (Organics) will say no. It's much simpler for them to launch a surprise attack and gather as many individuals as possible.

I believe that the Reapers believe they are the most advanced form of life. I suspect the Reapers were an originally insectoid type race that was the first to dominate the Galaxy probably as far back as 100 million years ago. What happened is with the inclusion of technology the original Reaper species discovered they were no longer evolving as they could make up for any decificieny or shortcoming with technology. (This is actually something suspected to be true of humans as there is very little that threatens us other then disease. The fact just about everyone alive can live to have children means evolution has pretty much come to a stop for us.)

So if you can no longer evolve in the typical biological sense what do you do? Well you either remain as you are until something finally manages to kill you (disease, famine, war, etc.) or you choose to fully embrace technology. The Reapers have obviously decided to become fully machine. However one drawback with machines is that they can only replicate themselves. They cannot really create unique individuals (although that's a bit questionable as there's likely a way to do that as well). So the Reapers must still rely on Organics to provide a new sapience for themselves as the Reapers are still living things in a sense.


Ultimately I bet the Reapers assume that even if they were wiped out, eventually other Organic races would come to the same conclusion: that being become something like Reapers themselves. Which probably isn't too far from the truth. I'm quite certain that in perhaps a few more thousand years Humans will become fully integrated with computers and the like to the point where we are no longer Human or reproduce through convetional means. I'd say by 2500 all Humans will likely be genetically tailored by their respective parents... so no more Jerry Springer, but probably a lot less things like cancer by then.Whether we choose to maintain physical bodies as we do now is uncertain. When you can upload or put your intelligence into whatever you want who knows what we'll end up like...

I expected nothing less of you, Bluko. You're always putting out great posts. And I agree, I never really understood what the galaxy plans to do after they defeat the Reapers. They are reaching their technological peak. Are they going to become Reapers? Some may say that they learned from experience and would not make the same mistake, but this is a common misconception among people. Think about how many times in human history that some tragic happened and was only paid attention to for so long before returning. Future generations forget because they never experienced it first hand and believe they can avert tragedy while continuing in the same past that nearly doomed others before.

Perhaps the Reapers are a cruel reminder of what sentience can do to the biological nature of things. 

#152
Killjoy Cutter

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Dionkey wrote...
I never really understood what the galaxy plans to do after they defeat the Reapers.


The plan after defeating the Reapers is to not have been wiped out by or assimilated into giant genocidal space monsters. 

After that, they can work on.  They'll have time. 

#153
Johnny34

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Evil to us definitely.

#154
Dionkey

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Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Dionkey wrote...
I never really understood what the galaxy plans to do after they defeat the Reapers.


The plan after defeating the Reapers is to not have been wiped out by or assimilated into giant genocidal space monsters. 

After that, they can work on.  They'll have time. 

But how much? They have perfected space travel and weaponry. They have a whole galaxy of minerals and resources at their disposal. They are bound to overcome any social issues after the war. Entertainment and living conditions are at their peak. What else can they do other than ascend to god-hood?

#155
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Dionkey wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Dionkey wrote...
I never really understood what the galaxy plans to do after they defeat the Reapers.


The plan after defeating the Reapers is to not have been wiped out by or assimilated into giant genocidal space monsters. 

After that, they can work on.  They'll have time. 

But how much? They have perfected space travel and weaponry. They have a whole galaxy of minerals and resources at their disposal. They are bound to overcome any social issues after the war. Entertainment and living conditions are at their peak. What else can they do other than ascend to god-hood?


Call me crazy, but for some reason I don't exactly see the galaxy electing to give up their indivual free will to be boiled into a paste and slapped together into a mechanical mockery of what was once a whole civilazation; because they were bored.

#156
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Ferris95 wrote...
Call me crazy, but for some reason I don't exactly see the galaxy electing to give up their indivual free will to be boiled into a paste and slapped together into a mechanical mockery of what was once a whole civilazation; because they were bored.

Look at Deus Ex. It all starts off with simpel augmentation, and then it eventually progresses to full body augmentation. A few decades to a century later and you have most of the galaxy on your side. I am sure when the Reapers were first made they either employed indoctrination tech or took people by force.

#157
Killjoy Cutter

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Dionkey wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Dionkey wrote...
I never really understood what the galaxy plans to do after they defeat the Reapers.


The plan after defeating the Reapers is to not have been wiped out by or assimilated into giant genocidal space monsters. 

After that, they can work on.  They'll have time. 

But how much? They have perfected space travel and weaponry. They have a whole galaxy of minerals and resources at their disposal. They are bound to overcome any social issues after the war. Entertainment and living conditions are at their peak. What else can they do other than ascend to god-hood?


There's a lot of space and time between where they are and "nothing left to do". 

Stop reading so much Ray Kurzweil. 

#158
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Dionkey wrote...

Ferris95 wrote...
Call me crazy, but for some reason I don't exactly see the galaxy electing to give up their indivual free will to be boiled into a paste and slapped together into a mechanical mockery of what was once a whole civilazation; because they were bored.

Look at Deus Ex. It all starts off with simpel augmentation, and then it eventually progresses to full body augmentation. A few decades to a century later and you have most of the galaxy on your side. I am sure when the Reapers were first made they either employed indoctrination tech or took people by force.


Body augmentation =/= becoming a gestalt warship.

I see what your saying, but I really do not see this happening.

#159
Killjoy Cutter

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Dionkey wrote...

Ferris95 wrote...
Call me crazy, but for some reason I don't exactly see the galaxy electing to give up their indivual free will to be boiled into a paste and slapped together into a mechanical mockery of what was once a whole civilazation; because they were bored.

Look at Deus Ex. It all starts off with simpel augmentation, and then it eventually progresses to full body augmentation. A few decades to a century later and you have most of the galaxy on your side. I am sure when the Reapers were first made they either employed indoctrination tech or took people by force.



Deus Ex is also a silly video game, not exactly where I'd take my future history from...

#160
VaultingFrog

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Dionkey wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Dionkey wrote...
I never really understood what the galaxy plans to do after they defeat the Reapers.


The plan after defeating the Reapers is to not have been wiped out by or assimilated into giant genocidal space monsters. 

After that, they can work on.  They'll have time. 

But how much? They have perfected space travel and weaponry. They have a whole galaxy of minerals and resources at their disposal. They are bound to overcome any social issues after the war. Entertainment and living conditions are at their peak. What else can they do other than ascend to god-hood?


Define god-hood. Are we talking Krogen gods? Human? Asari?

The idea (at least from what I can tell) behind being a Reaper is obtaining perfection, but perfection is not something anything can ever obtain. They will always have flaws, clearly seen with the destruction of Sov. Instead of allowing for the possibilty of growth through organic chaos they chose the stagnation of machine existance. They no longer evolve or adapt. They have reached as far as they could ever possably reach because they entombed themselves in limitations.

Organic beings have no such limitations except for what the mind wills. Humanity decided it wanted to fly so we created aircraft. We decided to conqure the stars so we invented our own spaceflight. Our solutions are created through need of something and as organics, being as flawed and emotional as we are, will always need something more.

Perhaps after the Reapers have been dealt with the peoples of the Milky Way will find a way to travel between galaxies. It is a big universe out there. There is bound to be challenges that nobody has ever concieved of to be encountered. Organic growth gives us that chance to adapt and evolve beond what we already are.

In a way I pitty any gods out there (if they do exist and I am not saying they do) because we have a finite life span. That makes every moment we have more beautiful than any eternal "god" could ever experience. It makes our accomplishments that much greater as we found a way to overcome adversity and evolving as a species instead of the cold stangnation of omnipotiance.

We have new and exciting things to do all the time, eternal beings or "gods" dont.

But thats my take on it.

#161
Dionkey

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Ferris95 wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

Ferris95 wrote...
Call me crazy, but for some reason I don't exactly see the galaxy electing to give up their indivual free will to be boiled into a paste and slapped together into a mechanical mockery of what was once a whole civilazation; because they were bored.

Look at Deus Ex. It all starts off with simpel augmentation, and then it eventually progresses to full body augmentation. A few decades to a century later and you have most of the galaxy on your side. I am sure when the Reapers were first made they either employed indoctrination tech or took people by force.


Body augmentation =/= becoming a gestalt warship.

I see what your saying, but I really do not see this happening.

As people see the benefit of cybernetics and the death of creativity, they opt in for drastic measures. Besides, propaganda would work really well considering no one could expose them once they were grinded up into goup.

#162
Dionkey

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Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

Ferris95 wrote...
Call me crazy, but for some reason I don't exactly see the galaxy electing to give up their indivual free will to be boiled into a paste and slapped together into a mechanical mockery of what was once a whole civilazation; because they were bored.

Look at Deus Ex. It all starts off with simpel augmentation, and then it eventually progresses to full body augmentation. A few decades to a century later and you have most of the galaxy on your side. I am sure when the Reapers were first made they either employed indoctrination tech or took people by force.



Deus Ex is also a silly video game, not exactly where I'd take my future history from...

Deus Ex is hardly silly compared to Mass Effect.

#163
Killjoy Cutter

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The death of creativity?

#164
Goneaviking

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Aipex8 wrote...

I really think that Haestrom's sun is the clue. The use of eezo and mass effect drives "polutes" star systems and causes them to die. For this reason the Reapers cull just the technologically advanced, spacefaring civilizations so that other life will continue to flourish and advance. The fact that the Reapers may use this culling as a way to reproduce (apparently this isn't always the case... Protheans weren't worthy, but but Humans are) is NOT the main purpose. The real reason is one of conservation. To make sure the galaxy is fertile and able produce life. This also explains why the Reapers reside in dark space, where their massive mass effect cores won't cause damage to any stars.

Seen in this way, you can't really say that the Reapers' actions are evil. Obviously they aren't ideal for the spacefaring races that have to be culled, but on the larger scale what they are doing can be seen as good. I also think this scenario will give the game a variety of ambiguous endings. When you find this out, you may question whether defeating the Reapers is the right thing to do. And if you do come to that conclusion, are you really just indoctrinated. If the Reapers are defeated it may mean that the current races will live in a quickly dying galaxy that won't be able to produce more advanced species in the future.


Of course they plant the technology to encourage races to develop this damaging technology for themselves instead of leaving it all open and allowing the newer species to develop in their own manner and potentially discover a source of power less harmful than the ones in game. Even if the newer species replicated the damaging aspects of the earlier technologies on their own, the intentional existence of such repositories of old knowledge speed up the process of development significantly so that given the 50,000 year cycle species could be taken apart before they began really damaging the system.

Even if they have a secret greeny agenda they intentionally nudge peoples to develop in a manner that allows for their easier destruction, and if you're correct about their anti-eezo vandetta they're actually encouraging such harmful technologies to give themselves an excuse to purge the newer species.

There's a demonstrable sadism in building the newer races up so that the can be torn down, and let's be honest about the 'reality' of the reapers: Anything that they have no use for they destroy. Utterly and without remorse.

If evil exists, then reapers certainly are that.

#165
Dionkey

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Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Dionkey wrote...
I never really understood what the galaxy plans to do after they defeat the Reapers.


The plan after defeating the Reapers is to not have been wiped out by or assimilated into giant genocidal space monsters. 

After that, they can work on.  They'll have time. 

But how much? They have perfected space travel and weaponry. They have a whole galaxy of minerals and resources at their disposal. They are bound to overcome any social issues after the war. Entertainment and living conditions are at their peak. What else can they do other than ascend to god-hood?


There's a lot of space and time between where they are and "nothing left to do". 

Stop reading so much Ray Kurzweil. 

I can already see how life is growing stagnant on Earth. Entertainment ideas are nearly exhausted everywhere (with a few breaths of fresh air like Inception) and the rich spend their money on useless, materialistic items instead of inventing and pushing the boundaries.

#166
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Dionkey wrote...

Ferris95 wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

Ferris95 wrote...
Call me crazy, but for some reason I don't exactly see the galaxy electing to give up their indivual free will to be boiled into a paste and slapped together into a mechanical mockery of what was once a whole civilazation; because they were bored.

Look at Deus Ex. It all starts off with simpel augmentation, and then it eventually progresses to full body augmentation. A few decades to a century later and you have most of the galaxy on your side. I am sure when the Reapers were first made they either employed indoctrination tech or took people by force.


Body augmentation =/= becoming a gestalt warship.

I see what your saying, but I really do not see this happening.

As people see the benefit of cybernetics and the death of creativity, they opt in for drastic measures. Besides, propaganda would work really well considering no one could expose them once they were grinded up into goup.


Not happening, creativity won't die. Human nature (aliens included) has always been to create. As we create arts and media we make culture. When we make culture we make differences amongst ourselves. We will always be segmented on some base level, at the very lest to the point were a poster telling us how grand being gestalt is won't change minds.

#167
Dionkey

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Killjoy Cutter wrote...

The death of creativity?

Yes, the death of creativity. We see this in the gaming industry with constant rehashes and overused concepts.

#168
Guest_Ferris95_*

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Dionkey wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Dionkey wrote...
I never really understood what the galaxy plans to do after they defeat the Reapers.


The plan after defeating the Reapers is to not have been wiped out by or assimilated into giant genocidal space monsters. 

After that, they can work on.  They'll have time. 

But how much? They have perfected space travel and weaponry. They have a whole galaxy of minerals and resources at their disposal. They are bound to overcome any social issues after the war. Entertainment and living conditions are at their peak. What else can they do other than ascend to god-hood?


There's a lot of space and time between where they are and "nothing left to do". 

Stop reading so much Ray Kurzweil. 

I can already see how life is growing stagnant on Earth. Entertainment ideas are nearly exhausted everywhere (with a few breaths of fresh air like Inception) and the rich spend their money on useless, materialistic items instead of inventing and pushing the boundaries.


Visit TvTropes, you will find that everything ever borrows from something. Originality is fairly dead, creativity is still alive and well as we find new ways to twist the tropes we have already established.

#169
Dionkey

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VaultingFrog wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Dionkey wrote...
I never really understood what the galaxy plans to do after they defeat the Reapers.


The plan after defeating the Reapers is to not have been wiped out by or assimilated into giant genocidal space monsters. 

After that, they can work on.  They'll have time. 

But how much? They have perfected space travel and weaponry. They have a whole galaxy of minerals and resources at their disposal. They are bound to overcome any social issues after the war. Entertainment and living conditions are at their peak. What else can they do other than ascend to god-hood?


Define god-hood. Are we talking Krogen gods? Human? Asari?

The idea (at least from what I can tell) behind being a Reaper is obtaining perfection, but perfection is not something anything can ever obtain. They will always have flaws, clearly seen with the destruction of Sov. Instead of allowing for the possibilty of growth through organic chaos they chose the stagnation of machine existance. They no longer evolve or adapt. They have reached as far as they could ever possably reach because they entombed themselves in limitations.

Organic beings have no such limitations except for what the mind wills. Humanity decided it wanted to fly so we created aircraft. We decided to conqure the stars so we invented our own spaceflight. Our solutions are created through need of something and as organics, being as flawed and emotional as we are, will always need something more.

Perhaps after the Reapers have been dealt with the peoples of the Milky Way will find a way to travel between galaxies. It is a big universe out there. There is bound to be challenges that nobody has ever concieved of to be encountered. Organic growth gives us that chance to adapt and evolve beond what we already are.

In a way I pitty any gods out there (if they do exist and I am not saying they do) because we have a finite life span. That makes every moment we have more beautiful than any eternal "god" could ever experience. It makes our accomplishments that much greater as we found a way to overcome adversity and evolving as a species instead of the cold stangnation of omnipotiance.

We have new and exciting things to do all the time, eternal beings or "gods" dont.

But thats my take on it.

A finite life span is the only thing keeping people from doing what the Reapers did. This is why the I find the Asari so interesting. How could someone possibly live for a 1000 years without being miserable?

#170
Killjoy Cutter

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Dionkey wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

Ferris95 wrote...
Call me crazy, but for some reason I don't exactly see the galaxy electing to give up their indivual free will to be boiled into a paste and slapped together into a mechanical mockery of what was once a whole civilazation; because they were bored.

Look at Deus Ex. It all starts off with simpel augmentation, and then it eventually progresses to full body augmentation. A few decades to a century later and you have most of the galaxy on your side. I am sure when the Reapers were first made they either employed indoctrination tech or took people by force.



Deus Ex is also a silly video game, not exactly where I'd take my future history from...

Deus Ex is hardly silly compared to Mass Effect.


Conspiracy theories and bog-standard cyberpunk tropes...

#171
Dionkey

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Ferris95 wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Dionkey wrote...
I never really understood what the galaxy plans to do after they defeat the Reapers.


The plan after defeating the Reapers is to not have been wiped out by or assimilated into giant genocidal space monsters. 

After that, they can work on.  They'll have time. 

But how much? They have perfected space travel and weaponry. They have a whole galaxy of minerals and resources at their disposal. They are bound to overcome any social issues after the war. Entertainment and living conditions are at their peak. What else can they do other than ascend to god-hood?


There's a lot of space and time between where they are and "nothing left to do". 

Stop reading so much Ray Kurzweil. 

I can already see how life is growing stagnant on Earth. Entertainment ideas are nearly exhausted everywhere (with a few breaths of fresh air like Inception) and the rich spend their money on useless, materialistic items instead of inventing and pushing the boundaries.


Visit TvTropes, you will find that everything ever borrows from something. Originality is fairly dead, creativity is still alive and well as we find new ways to twist the tropes we have already established.

Creativity is simply the drive to spin a generic silk into an interesting web. Regardless of how creative people are, the same things are being repeated, and it shows.

#172
Killjoy Cutter

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Dionkey wrote...
A finite life span is the only thing keeping people from doing what the Reapers did. This is why the I find the Asari so interesting. How could someone possibly live for a 1000 years without being miserable?


How is a finite lifespan the only thing keeping people from doing what the Reapers did, and what act of the Reapers are you refering to exactly? 

As for the long lifespan, I can easily imagine it making some people less miserable... so much more time to learn, to do, to see, to get things right, to try again when things go wrong.  Human lives are too short. 

#173
Killjoy Cutter

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Dionkey wrote...
Creativity is simply the drive to spin a generic silk into an interesting web. Regardless of how creative people are, the same things are being repeated, and it shows.


Ah, so jaded...  Image IPB

#174
Dionkey

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Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

Ferris95 wrote...
Call me crazy, but for some reason I don't exactly see the galaxy electing to give up their indivual free will to be boiled into a paste and slapped together into a mechanical mockery of what was once a whole civilazation; because they were bored.

Look at Deus Ex. It all starts off with simpel augmentation, and then it eventually progresses to full body augmentation. A few decades to a century later and you have most of the galaxy on your side. I am sure when the Reapers were first made they either employed indoctrination tech or took people by force.



Deus Ex is also a silly video game, not exactly where I'd take my future history from...

Deus Ex is hardly silly compared to Mass Effect.


Conspiracy theories and bog-standard cyberpunk tropes...

What's so silly about those? I don't understand. You make it sound like conspiracie theories are the work of fairies. Cyberpunk tropes? Sure, but the game connects so well to real world conspiracy theories that it is very refreshing. Mass Effect has unbelievable science and a cliche plot. Not that Mass Effect is bad, but I certainly wouldn't say Deus Ex is silly comapred to Mass Effect.

#175
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Dionkey wrote...

Ferris95 wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Dionkey wrote...
I never really understood what the galaxy plans to do after they defeat the Reapers.


The plan after defeating the Reapers is to not have been wiped out by or assimilated into giant genocidal space monsters. 

After that, they can work on.  They'll have time. 

But how much? They have perfected space travel and weaponry. They have a whole galaxy of minerals and resources at their disposal. They are bound to overcome any social issues after the war. Entertainment and living conditions are at their peak. What else can they do other than ascend to god-hood?


There's a lot of space and time between where they are and "nothing left to do". 

Stop reading so much Ray Kurzweil. 

I can already see how life is growing stagnant on Earth. Entertainment ideas are nearly exhausted everywhere (with a few breaths of fresh air like Inception) and the rich spend their money on useless, materialistic items instead of inventing and pushing the boundaries.


Visit TvTropes, you will find that everything ever borrows from something. Originality is fairly dead, creativity is still alive and well as we find new ways to twist the tropes we have already established.

Creativity is simply the drive to spin a generic silk into an interesting web. Regardless of how creative people are, the same things are being repeated, and it shows.


Tropes have been repeating themselves for thousands of years and culture seems to be doing fine. Not to mention that everytime a new form of media is created we get a new batch of tropes that used for centuries to come.