395 réponses à ce sujet

[Killjoy Cutter]

Dionkey wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

Ferris95 wrote...
Call me crazy, but for some reason I don't exactly see the galaxy electing to give up their indivual free will to be boiled into a paste and slapped together into a mechanical mockery of what was once a whole civilazation; because they were bored.

Look at Deus Ex. It all starts off with simpel augmentation, and then it eventually progresses to full body augmentation. A few decades to a century later and you have most of the galaxy on your side. I am sure when the Reapers were first made they either employed indoctrination tech or took people by force.

Deus Ex is also a silly video game, not exactly where I'd take my future history from...

Deus Ex is hardly silly compared to Mass Effect.

Conspiracy theories and bog-standard cyberpunk tropes...

What's so silly about those? I don't understand. You make it sound like conspiracie theories are the work of fairies. Cyberpunk tropes? Sure, but the game connects so well to real world conspiracy theories that it is very refreshing. Mass Effect has unbelievable science and a cliche plot. Not that Mass Effect is bad, but I certainly wouldn't say Deus Ex is silly comapred to Mass Effect.

Conspiracy theories might as well be the work of faeries, for as seriously as they should be taken.  I have more trouble taking a book (cough Dan Brown cough) or movie or video game seriously because it connects to real-world conspiracy wingnuttery. 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 25 août 2011 - 04:45 .

[Dionkey]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Dionkey wrote...
A finite life span is the only thing keeping people from doing what the Reapers did. This is why the I find the Asari so interesting. How could someone possibly live for a 1000 years without being miserable?

How is a finite lifespan the only thing keeping people from doing what the Reapers did, and what act of the Reapers are you refering to exactly? 

As for the long lifespan, I can easily imagine it making some people less miserable... so much more time to learn, to do, to see, to get things right, to try again when things go wrong.  Human lives are too short. 

The Reapers realized they reached the technoloigcal and evolutionary threshold, so they converted themsevles into indestructible machine gods that keep the future races from exhausting their creativity like the Reapers did. The finite lifespan is the only thing keeping people from doing the unspeakable, mostly because they die before they can realize how stagnant the world is. 

Many people feel they have seen enough of the world by 50, it's all in the eye of the beholder. Personally, I would probably get tired after the first 200 years. 

[Dionkey]

Ferris95 wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

Ferris95 wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Dionkey wrote...
I never really understood what the galaxy plans to do after they defeat the Reapers.

The plan after defeating the Reapers is to not have been wiped out by or assimilated into giant genocidal space monsters. 

After that, they can work on.  They'll have time. 

But how much? They have perfected space travel and weaponry. They have a whole galaxy of minerals and resources at their disposal. They are bound to overcome any social issues after the war. Entertainment and living conditions are at their peak. What else can they do other than ascend to god-hood?

There's a lot of space and time between where they are and "nothing left to do". 

Stop reading so much Ray Kurzweil. 

I can already see how life is growing stagnant on Earth. Entertainment ideas are nearly exhausted everywhere (with a few breaths of fresh air like Inception) and the rich spend their money on useless, materialistic items instead of inventing and pushing the boundaries.

Visit TvTropes, you will find that everything ever borrows from something. Originality is fairly dead, creativity is still alive and well as we find new ways to twist the tropes we have already established.

Creativity is simply the drive to spin a generic silk into an interesting web. Regardless of how creative people are, the same things are being repeated, and it shows.

Tropes have been repeating themselves for thousands of years and culture seems to be doing fine. Not to mention that everytime a new form of media is created we get a new batch of tropes that used for centuries to come.

But only in the last century has media been so accessible and fleshed out. Tales and stories hardly constitute as tropes considering they only reached such a small audience.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Dionkey wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Dionkey wrote...
A finite life span is the only thing keeping people from doing what the Reapers did. This is why the I find the Asari so interesting. How could someone possibly live for a 1000 years without being miserable?

How is a finite lifespan the only thing keeping people from doing what the Reapers did, and what act of the Reapers are you refering to exactly? 

As for the long lifespan, I can easily imagine it making some people less miserable... so much more time to learn, to do, to see, to get things right, to try again when things go wrong.  Human lives are too short. 

The Reapers realized they reached the technoloigcal and evolutionary threshold, so they converted themsevles into indestructible machine gods that keep the future races from exhausting their creativity like the Reapers did. The finite lifespan is the only thing keeping people from doing the unspeakable, mostly because they die before they can realize how stagnant the world is. 

Many people feel they have seen enough of the world by 50, it's all in the eye of the beholder. Personally, I would probably get tired after the first 200 years. 

Wait, wait... what technological threshold is that?  And what makes you think that creativity can be exhausted? 

[Kileyan]

Evil, nice, well meaning or just oblivious to the races beneath them. Does it matter?

They want to kill entire planets, races and cultures. Not just kill them but wipe them out of memory of anyone that comes after them.

They are the bad guys, that is all that matters. Trying to argue whether they are evil or not is just an academic argument. Nice around a faculty lounge table, but when confronted by the results if they win, I bet every one of those ponytailed, stone washed jeans, casual blazer wearing college professors that argue what is evil, will be praying we friggin win against this misunderstood race of things that aren't evil:)

[Dionkey]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Conspiracy theories might as well be the work of faeries, for as seriously as they should be taken.  I have more trouble taking a book (cough Dan Brown cough) or movie or video game seriously because it connects to real-world conspiracy wingnuttery. 

Conspiracy theories can expose some real problems. Obviously, too many people seek excitement and believe that the government is filled with shapeshifting aliens. To be open-minded to all points of argument is better than to be close-minded and deceived, at least that's how I look at it. 

[Goneaviking]

Dionkey wrote...
(snip)
I never really understood what the galaxy plans to do after they defeat the Reapers. They are reaching their technological peak. Are they going to become Reapers? Some may say that they learned from experience and would not make the same mistake, but this is a common misconception among people. Think about how many times in human history that some tragic happened and was only paid attention to for so long before returning. Future generations forget because they never experienced it first hand and believe they can avert tragedy while continuing in the same past that nearly doomed others before.

Perhaps the Reapers are a cruel reminder of what sentience can do to the biological nature of things. 

Who says the races are about to reach their peak? So far as I can tell they still have a lot of the universe to explore, they're still investing vast resources in scientific research and continue to develop culturally particularly with the continuing inclusion of more recently ascended species.

Why should "the galaxy" have specific plans for after the war with alien machines they don't even believe exists? They've been progressing continually for thousands of years up to this point and if they survive will continue to do so in the same sporadic and haphazard way they always have.

[VaultingFrog]

Dionkey wrote...
 A finite life span is the only thing keeping people from doing what the Reapers did. This is why the I find the Asari so interesting. How could someone possibly live for a 1000 years without being miserable?

I disagree. Organic life is constantly changing. Evolving.

You (or somebody) pointed out that humanity is stangent now, however we are also reaching a point in our evolution where some really exciting stuff is about to happen. Colonization of space is nearing a real possibility, genetic research is proving interesting in expanding human lives as well as resources. Computer technology is nearly to the point where we will give birth to rudimentary AI's. We are on the cusp of so many amazing events.

It is like the breath before the whirlwind.

Once events like that take place the world will be flying past us so fast we will look back on days like these and wonder how we ever managed.

More importantly I think, you are looking for excuses to become a Reaper when there are so many advantages not to. Sure an Asari can live for 1000 years, but it can be filled with adventure, romance, horror and joy the likes of which a being such as a Reaper could never fathom. It is not a constant bland existance but full of vibrant colors that shape our lives and those around us. I would love to live for 1000 years. It would be maddening and yet incredible at the same time, to see so much, know so much and yet realize that there will always be more to see and learn because I and the universe around me are constantly changing.

Why do you think the Reapers targeted humanity? What set us appart from any other species in the galaxy? We are not all that special yet they chose us to create another Reaper out of. They found us to be the largest threat and struck at us first. Why I ask why? It is because we were unexpected. We evolved differently than everything else, just like everything else evolved differently in its own way. We are an unknown and that frightens them. They can not comprehend the unknown because they have lost sight of it. That is what organic life offers.

Turning into a Reaper is a step towards an endless wait for nothingness, where evolution stops and creativity becomes no more. Color looses meaning and the world becomes nothing but 1s and 0s. Does an endless existance of stagnation appeal to you? Thats all a Reaper could ever offer.

Modifié par VaultingFrog, 25 août 2011 - 04:51 .

[Dionkey]

Ferris95 wrote...
I'm not following your though process. Are you saying that because we have recently been keeping track of tropes that creativity will die? That's too cynical to apply in the real world. It only works in cliche cyberpunk stories.

Pretty much. If we are already seeing such a recycled mess of media in the last 100 years, what will another century do to us? I think people need to focus on something more ambitious like space travel. Perhaps that will renew people's inspiration and creativity like it did back in the 60's.

[Dionkey]

VaultingFrog wrote...

Dionkey wrote...
 A finite life span is the only thing keeping people from doing what the Reapers did. This is why the I find the Asari so interesting. How could someone possibly live for a 1000 years without being miserable?

I disagree. Organic life is constantly changing. Evolving.

You (or somebody) pointed out that humanity is stangent now, however we are also reaching a point in our evolution where some really exciting stuff is about to happen. Colonization of space is nearing a real possibility, genetic research is proving interesting in expanding human lives as well as resources. Computer technology is nearly to the point where we will give birth to rudimentary AI's. We are on the cusp of so many amazing events.

It is like the breath before the whirlwind.

Once events like that take place the world will be flying past us so fast we will look back on days like these and wonder how we ever managed.

More importantly I think, you are looking for excuses to become a Reaper when there are so many advantages not to. Sure an Asari can live for 1000 years, but it can be filled with adventure, romance, horror and joy the likes of which a being such as a Reaper could never fathom. It is not a constant bland existance but full of vibrant colors that shape our lives and those around us. I would love to live for 1000 years. It would be maddening and yet incredible at the same time, to see so much, know so much and yet realize that there will always be more to see and learn because I and the universe around me are constantly changing.

Why do you think the Reapers targeted humanity? What set us appart from any other species in the galaxy? We are not all that special yet they chose us to create another Reaper out of. They found us to be the largest threat and struck at us first. Why I ask why? It is because we were unexpected. We evolved differently than everything else, just like everything else evolved differently in its own way. We are an unknown and that frightens them. They can not comprehend the unknown because they have lost sight of it. That is what organic life offers.

Turning into a Reaper is a step towards an endless wait for nothingness, where evolution stops and creativity becomes no more. Color looses meaning and the world becomes nothing but 1s and 0s. Does an endless existance of stagnation appeal to you? Thats all a Reaper could ever offer.

No, I believe becoming a Reaper is a bad idea. I simply think that future generations perhaps might see the world as stagnant and forget the lessons of the past. Whether this be 100 years or 1000, it will happen eventually. There is simply a point where you can no longer progress or it is simply not worth it.

[Dionkey]

Ferris95 wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Conspiracy theories might as well be the work of faeries, for as seriously as they should be taken.  I have more trouble taking a book (cough Dan Brown cough) or movie or video game seriously because it connects to real-world conspiracy wingnuttery. 

Conspiracy theories can expose some real problems. Obviously, too many people seek excitement and believe that the government is filled with shapeshifting aliens. To be open-minded to all points of argument is better than to be close-minded and deceived, at least that's how I look at it. 

Conspiracy theories are generally the work of overly paranoid people to caught up in the delusion that world is grim and dark to beleive that it is actually a fundementally good place.

While this may be true, there has been quite a few instances where paranoia has shed light on important issues. Obviously, there are powerful people who can make money from tragic events. Do I find it so unbelievable these people would tip the scales in their favour and affect some of these events? Sure. Do I think every tragedy that has happened was done by some people in a smoke filled room? Nope.

[Dionkey]

Goneaviking wrote...

Dionkey wrote...
(snip)
I never really understood what the galaxy plans to do after they defeat the Reapers. They are reaching their technological peak. Are they going to become Reapers? Some may say that they learned from experience and would not make the same mistake, but this is a common misconception among people. Think about how many times in human history that some tragic happened and was only paid attention to for so long before returning. Future generations forget because they never experienced it first hand and believe they can avert tragedy while continuing in the same past that nearly doomed others before.

Perhaps the Reapers are a cruel reminder of what sentience can do to the biological nature of things. 

Who says the races are about to reach their peak? So far as I can tell they still have a lot of the universe to explore, they're still investing vast resources in scientific research and continue to develop culturally particularly with the continuing inclusion of more recently ascended species.

Why should "the galaxy" have specific plans for after the war with alien machines they don't even believe exists? They've been progressing continually for thousands of years up to this point and if they survive will continue to do so in the same sporadic and haphazard way they always have.

What left is there to explore? You can always find amazing stuff in a place that is easily accessible, but this doesn't mean this stuff is completely original. Just like a snowflake, it make be unique, but it is simply a combination of many features from other places you have already witnessed. Once you realize this, the excitement and ambition to continue will stop.

[VaultingFrog]

Dionkey wrote...

VaultingFrog wrote...

Dionkey wrote...
 A finite life span is the only thing keeping people from doing what the Reapers did. This is why the I find the Asari so interesting. How could someone possibly live for a 1000 years without being miserable?

I disagree. Organic life is constantly changing. Evolving.

You (or somebody) pointed out that humanity is stangent now, however we are also reaching a point in our evolution where some really exciting stuff is about to happen. Colonization of space is nearing a real possibility, genetic research is proving interesting in expanding human lives as well as resources. Computer technology is nearly to the point where we will give birth to rudimentary AI's. We are on the cusp of so many amazing events.

It is like the breath before the whirlwind.

Once events like that take place the world will be flying past us so fast we will look back on days like these and wonder how we ever managed.

More importantly I think, you are looking for excuses to become a Reaper when there are so many advantages not to. Sure an Asari can live for 1000 years, but it can be filled with adventure, romance, horror and joy the likes of which a being such as a Reaper could never fathom. It is not a constant bland existance but full of vibrant colors that shape our lives and those around us. I would love to live for 1000 years. It would be maddening and yet incredible at the same time, to see so much, know so much and yet realize that there will always be more to see and learn because I and the universe around me are constantly changing.

Why do you think the Reapers targeted humanity? What set us appart from any other species in the galaxy? We are not all that special yet they chose us to create another Reaper out of. They found us to be the largest threat and struck at us first. Why I ask why? It is because we were unexpected. We evolved differently than everything else, just like everything else evolved differently in its own way. We are an unknown and that frightens them. They can not comprehend the unknown because they have lost sight of it. That is what organic life offers.

Turning into a Reaper is a step towards an endless wait for nothingness, where evolution stops and creativity becomes no more. Color looses meaning and the world becomes nothing but 1s and 0s. Does an endless existance of stagnation appeal to you? Thats all a Reaper could ever offer.

No, I believe becoming a Reaper is a bad idea. I simply think that future generations perhaps might see the world as stagnant and forget the lessons of the past. Whether this be 100 years or 1000, it will happen eventually. There is simply a point where you can no longer progress or it is simply not worth it.

If evolution is not worth it then why make the effort to become a Reaper? It is a form of evolution, though one that has no future.

You have to take into consideration that in years hence the people of the galaxy (as I do believe there are other beings out there besides us) will find new and challenging obsticals to overcome. Intergalactic travel could be one of them. I hope you realize how large the universe is and continues to grow into. That space is full of possibilities and far to vast to concieve of all of them. By the time we explore our own galaxy Billions of other galaxies will have been made and destroyed. Would that not intrest beings into pushing our limits to see what has never been seen before? To find new friends, or dangerious enemies beond what has ever been found?

The possibilities are stagering and we are just at the forefront of being able to start such an undertaking.

[Dionkey]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Dionkey wrote...
A finite life span is the only thing keeping people from doing what the Reapers did. This is why the I find the Asari so interesting. How could someone possibly live for a 1000 years without being miserable?

How is a finite lifespan the only thing keeping people from doing what the Reapers did, and what act of the Reapers are you refering to exactly? 

As for the long lifespan, I can easily imagine it making some people less miserable... so much more time to learn, to do, to see, to get things right, to try again when things go wrong.  Human lives are too short. 

The Reapers realized they reached the technoloigcal and evolutionary threshold, so they converted themsevles into indestructible machine gods that keep the future races from exhausting their creativity like the Reapers did. The finite lifespan is the only thing keeping people from doing the unspeakable, mostly because they die before they can realize how stagnant the world is. 

Many people feel they have seen enough of the world by 50, it's all in the eye of the beholder. Personally, I would probably get tired after the first 200 years. 

Wait, wait... what technological threshold is that?  And what makes you think that creativity can be exhausted? 

Relay technology and Mass Effect technology is the threshold. When you can travel anywhere and play with the physics of any object, you can do anything. This is why there was such a boom in technology after the discovery of relay technology. 

[Dionkey]

VaultingFrog wrote...
If evolution is not worth it then why make the effort to become a Reaper? It is a form of evolution, though one that has no future.

You have to take into consideration that in years hence the people of the galaxy (as I do believe there are other beings out there besides us) will find new and challenging obsticals to overcome. Intergalactic travel could be one of them. I hope you realize how large the universe is and continues to grow into. That space is full of possibilities and far to vast to concieve of all of them. By the time we explore our own galaxy Billions of other galaxies will have been made and destroyed. Would that not intrest beings into pushing our limits to see what has never been seen before? To find new friends, or dangerious enemies beond what has ever been found?

The possibilities are stagering and we are just at the forefront of being able to start such an undertaking.

Perhaps, but I think once you've seen the entire galaxy and the many species it has to offer, it becomes redundant to enter another one. Different planets, different stars, different species, but they are simply different variations of what we already know. By this time, they have unlocked the keys to the universe. The only question left is; Who created it all? But that's a question that cannot and will not be answered.

Modifié par Dionkey, 25 août 2011 - 05:07 .

[Goneaviking]

Dionkey wrote...
I can already see how life is growing stagnant on Earth. Entertainment ideas are nearly exhausted everywhere (with a few breaths of fresh air like Inception) and the rich spend their money on useless, materialistic items instead of inventing and pushing the boundaries.

Then you aren't paying enough attention.

There are some truly inspirational and horrifying developments in culture and politics going on as you flagellate yourself and damn our species for not being interesting enough for you. Over much of the world the arts and entertainments are advancing as they've always done to reflect the societies that inspire them and the concerns of their creators.

Much of "the West" is in something of a slump at the moment, but the rest of the world keeps humming along as it always has. It's not the first time a powerful culture has exhausted itself and it won't be the last time that it happens to us specifically.

Dionkey wrote...
But only in the last century has media been
so accessible and fleshed out. Tales and stories hardly constitute as
tropes considering they only reached such a small audience.

Culture and stories have always travelled widely for thousands of years and they've been tremendously influential wherever they've wandered.

It's not for nothing that the Iliad and the legend of Gilgamesh were spread around as formal histories once writing developed far enough, but even before that they had travelled widely and were being repeated ad nauseam by professional storytellers, by parents, priests and historians. Nor is it coincidental that the Song of Roland was composed during the crusades, and even less so that it distorted the history to further the cultural imperatives of the time.

Dionkey wrote...
 Relay technology and Mass Effect technology
is the threshold. When you can travel anywhere and play with the physics
of any object, you can do anything. This is why there was such a boom
in technology after the discovery of relay technology. 

Neither technology are yet to grant the ability "travel anywhere and play with the physics of any object", otherwise that would be reflected in the game. Much of the galaxy still remains unexplored, and its peoples continue to burdened by the laws of physics with a few story-dependent exceptions.

The reason there was a boom in technology after the discovery of the relays and whatnot is because it was a completely new form of technology essentially being handed over for research. As they were investigated and explored it would have opened up entirely new possibilities for scientists that had up until then seemed unthinkable.

It was like discovering steam technology, or internal combustion. Once these "giant leap for mankind" ideas are introduced it opens the floodgates of creativity and immense progress is made in the ensuing excitement.

Modifié par Goneaviking, 25 août 2011 - 05:21 .

[Dionkey]

Goneaviking wrote...
Culture and stories have always travelled widely for thousands of years and they've been tremendously influential wherever they've wandered.

It's not for nothing that the Iliad and the legend of Gilgamesh were spread around as formal histories once writing developed far enough, but even before that they had travelled widely and were being repeated ad nauseam by professional storytellers, by parents, priests and historians. Nor is it coincidental that the Song of Roland was composed during the crusades, and even less so that it distorted the history to further the cultural imperatives of the time.

But these are only a few stories. Today, we have access to 1000's of new stories a day. Back then, people actually had to explore to see things. Nowadays, you can travel and see the worlds monuments with a quick google search. The world is much more underwhelming and thus hurts imagination.

[silhouette80]

I think the Reapers operate with a very extreme form of utilitarianism, meaning the ends justify the means. Their methods of culling and creating new reapers justifies their goal of "perfecting" or "saving" organic life. Reapers hold a long view of things...they see the destruction of organic civilization as inevitable. So in their own distorted view they are actually preservers rather than destroyers of life.

[AClockworkMelon]

Wereparrot wrote...

Humans do not massacre animals every few years

Never heard of hunting seasons, huh?

[Goneaviking]

Dionkey wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...
Culture and stories have always travelled widely for thousands of years and they've been tremendously influential wherever they've wandered.

It's not for nothing that the Iliad and the legend of Gilgamesh were spread around as formal histories once writing developed far enough, but even before that they had travelled widely and were being repeated ad nauseam by professional storytellers, by parents, priests and historians. Nor is it coincidental that the Song of Roland was composed during the crusades, and even less so that it distorted the history to further the cultural imperatives of the time.

But these are only a few stories. Today, we have access to 1000's of new stories a day. Back then, people actually had to explore to see things. Nowadays, you can travel and see the worlds monuments with a quick google search. The world is much more underwhelming and thus hurts imagination.

And yet the time I spent in China and India dramatically impacted my understanding of the world, and my relations with people. Google does not even come close to comparing with actually visiting a different culture and speaking with people you never dreamed existed.

It's worth remembering that more people travel now than ever have in the past.

[nocbl2]

All of it is perspective.

I eat meat because I figure, one way or another, the animal, one day, is going to die. I may as well use its meat to replenish myself and keep on living.

It may be the same with the Reapers. They are infinite--they are immortal to everything but a **** load of tungsten and steel. They decide that one day all of us will die anyways, so they may as well put us to good use.

[Goneaviking]

AClockworkMelon wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

Humans do not massacre animals every few years

Never heard of hunting seasons, huh?

Entirely different beast. Hunters don't generally aim for the total extermination of species.