37 réponses à ce sujet

[Siduri]

I'm sorry if this is the wrong forum for this post -- it's mostly general speculation on the cultures of Thedas, rather than about any specific DA2 quest or storyline. I couldn't find a better spot to bring up the topic, but please let me know if there is one. Also, I feel certain that this discussion must have come up before, but I haven't seen it, so I would also definitely appreciate any links to similar threads.

Basically, from the first time I played DA:O as a female dwarven noble, I've had a troubling knot in my mind about why the dwarves--locked as they are in an endless, losing war with the darkspawn--would do something as stupid as send their female criminals into the Deep Roads without arms or armor...as offerings for the darkspawn. It's just so insane. Why are they handing their enemy more broodmothers?

And the more I think about it, the twin pressures of dwarven society--their declining fertility, and the fact that their enemy can create hordes of darkspawn from a single broodmother--should really work together to make sexual egalitarianism almost impossible among the dwarves. It doesn't make any strategic sense that they allow women like Sigrun to fight in the Legion of the Dead. Rather, you'd expect to see a society where women (at least young, possibly-fertile women) are fiercely guarded, forbidden from taking on personal risk, and highly pressured to "settle down" at the earliest possible age and work on having kids.

The first explanation I considered is the idea that dwarves don't know where broodmothers come from. But this doesn't really hold water. Branka knew--Sigrun knew--so the knowledge is obviously available to at least some dwarves, and it's hard to see how a fact so primary to the war effort could fail to be communicated to the generals, Shapers, kings, and other decision-makers of dwarven society. After so long fighting the darkspawn, they really ought to know where baby darkspawn come from.

The second explanation I considered was that dwarven traditionalism is simply so strong that there's immense resistance to any sort of changes whatsoever. Their society evolved pre-darkspawn, and although they understand where broodmothers come from, they're absolutely unwilling to make any sort of changes whatsoever in response to this knowledge. I think this could easily be a factor in shaping the society we see in-game, but it can't be the whole explanation, because we're told dwarven society *has* been changing in response to their fertility crisis (at least, I believe it's explained that the rise of the "noble hunters" stems from the drastic decline in dwarven population).

SOoooo basically my question is--why do the dwarves seem perfectly willing to expose young women to possible Broodmother conversion? Do we have any information or more insight into how dwarven society ended up the way it did?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I think they figured she's probably just be killed.

[jamesp81]

The second explanation I considered was that dwarven traditionalism is
simply so strong that there's immense resistance to any sort of changes
whatsoever.

I think that's it.

Truthfully, in there place, you're right.  They could conceivably reclaim much of their territory if they broke out of some of their traditions.  Fertile women would have to, as you say, settle down early and have as many kids as practical.  Another change that should be made (and is made at the end of Origins, if you make the right choice during the Orzammar main quest) is allow the casteless to join the army.

[dragonflight288]

The Warden is the one to discover the broomothers. It's likely the Dwarves don't know. And if they did, the noble caste probably wouldn't care.

Oghren says it best.

Because the noble caste in Orzammar have a huge stick up their butt called tradition.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 24 août 2011 - 07:54 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

Siduri wrote...

The second explanation I considered was that dwarven traditionalism is simply so strong that there's immense resistance to any sort of changes whatsoever. Their society evolved pre-darkspawn, and although they understand where broodmothers come from, they're absolutely unwilling to make any sort of changes whatsoever in response to this knowledge. I think this could easily be a factor in shaping the society we see in-game, but it can't be the whole explanation, because we're told dwarven society *has* been changing in response to their fertility crisis (at least, I believe it's explained that the rise of the "noble hunters" stems from the drastic decline in dwarven population)

I'd also vote on this one. Especially considering the core of the dwarven faith: "We are the Children of the Stone. She supports us, shelters us, offers us the most priceless gifts of the earth. The worthy return to her embrace in death, becoming Ancestors. The unworthy are cast out, unable to rest, that their failings may not weaken the Stone."

But why do you say that they are sent without arms and armor? This seems to suggest otherwise:
"So I was told by one of the Legionnaires himself, a dwarf who waited quietly at the entrance to the Deep Roads for the rest of his unit to assemble. They gathered slowly, each equipped with heavy armor and fine weapons, each painted with grim tattoos applied at their funerals the night previous."

EDIT: Fixing copy-paste formatting.

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 24 août 2011 - 08:01 .

[Darius Vir]

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Warden is the one to discover the broomothers. It's likely the Dwarves don't know. And if they did, the noble caste probably wouldn't care.

I think the Grey Wardens had discovered the deal with the broodmothers at some point before The Warden ran into them. 

Wasn't exactly public knowledge, I'm guessing, but it was known. 

Modifié par Darius Vir, 24 août 2011 - 08:02 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

There are Legion of the Dead records of Broodmothers so it's likley the dwarves know about them, or at least some of them do.

[Darius Vir]

It is a good question/point, though, OP.

I'd love some mysterious hidden answer, but honestly, it's probably something along the lines of your second explanation.

The dwarves (of Orzammar) are idiots. There's not many more things they could be doing to further along their own destruction.

[TEWR]

It's true it's not the best idea, but they have no other choice. The Dwarves are down to a mere fraction of the numbers they used to be, so they need to use whatever they've got. Xanthos Aeducan (my avatar) however would bring in more forces to fight the Darkspawn. Wardens, mages, Fereldan soldiers, Golems, Dwarven Templars, Casteless, etc.

But I would definitely tell the women fighters that if they were captured by the Darkspawn, the last thing they could do in service to the Stone is to take as many of them down as possible before killing themselves and becoming broodmothers.

I wouldn't be happy about it though.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 24 août 2011 - 09:32 .

[TEWR]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Siduri wrote...

The second explanation I considered was that dwarven traditionalism is simply so strong that there's immense resistance to any sort of changes whatsoever. Their society evolved pre-darkspawn, and although they understand where broodmothers come from, they're absolutely unwilling to make any sort of changes whatsoever in response to this knowledge. I think this could easily be a factor in shaping the society we see in-game, but it can't be the whole explanation, because we're told dwarven society *has* been changing in response to their fertility crisis (at least, I believe it's explained that the rise of the "noble hunters" stems from the drastic decline in dwarven population)

I'd also vote on this one. Especially considering the core of the dwarven faith: "We are the Children of the Stone. She supports us, shelters us, offers us the most priceless gifts of the earth. The worthy return to her embrace in death, becoming Ancestors. The unworthy are cast out, unable to rest, that their failings may not weaken the Stone."

But why do you say that they are sent without arms and armor? This seems to suggest otherwise:
"So I was told by one of the Legionnaires himself, a dwarf who waited quietly at the entrance to the Deep Roads for the rest of his unit to assemble. They gathered slowly, each equipped with heavy armor and fine weapons, each painted with grim tattoos applied at their funerals the night previous."

EDIT: Fixing copy-paste formatting.

The Dwarf Noble is sent out with no armor and a dagger and shield at least. If you don't kill Trian you can get a proper sword and scavenge some armor off of dead Dwarves.

[dragonflight288]

Imagine how many dwarves are sent out in exile like that. If they're female or male, they stand no chance of survival. The Dwarven Noble simply had the luck to meet the Grey Wardens down there.

[TEWR]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Imagine how many dwarves are sent out in exile like that. If they're female or male, they stand no chance of survival. The Dwarven Noble simply had the luck to meet the Grey Wardens down there.

The Males probably do what Ruck did. They probably eat the Darkspawn so that they can stay alive. Though that's not much of a life considering they lose their minds mostly.

[TobiTobsen]

Can an exiled dwarf still join the Legion? Or do you have to announce that intent as soon as you're dishonored? I'm not quite sure about that point.

If they can join them after they were exiled they could still fight and try to find a legion patrol, instead of ... just lie down and die. Serving in the Legion would at least improve the chances to do something good for Orzammar, instead of just killing some darkspawn and getting slaughtered.

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 24 août 2011 - 09:36 .

[TEWR]

You'd have to say you want to join the Legion before they cast you out. Otherwise, you have to hope you're lucky enough to find one of their patrols.

[Zanallen]

The real answer is that the game was designed with a male dwarf noble in mind. You weren't supposed to make a female Aeducan.

[TobiTobsen]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

You'd have to say you want to join the Legion before they cast you out. Otherwise, you have to hope you're lucky enough to find one of their patrols.

Would that still count? I mean... nobody knows that you joined. Or yould they send word to Orzammar that you joined and that your honor ist restored?

Oh... by the way: Did I mention that I want the Legion back in DA3? Those boys and girls are freakin awesome!

[TEWR]

Once you join the Legion, your old life is gone. By joining however, you can absolve your house of any shame that you have brought upon it, whether you're innocent or not.

And I want to see Kardol and Sigrun again. Sigrun better have longer hair though. And still be perky.

[TobiTobsen]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Once you join the Legion, your old life is gone. By joining however, you can absolve your house of any shame that you have brought upon it, whether you're innocent or not.

And I want to see Kardol and Sigrun again. Sigrun better have longer hair though. And still be perky.

Sigurn needs to be a LI! My poor Commoner Warden (*nods to Avatar*) is waiting for her since DAA Dwarves need some love too!

[TEWR]

TobiTobsen wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Once you join the Legion, your old life is gone. By joining however, you can absolve your house of any shame that you have brought upon it, whether you're innocent or not.

And I want to see Kardol and Sigrun again. Sigrun better have longer hair though. And still be perky.

Sigurn needs to be a LI! My poor Commoner Warden (*nods to Avatar*) is waiting for her since DAA Dwarves need some love too!

Bioware's racist against Dwarves! They don't want to give us a Dwarf LI!

I vote for Varric and Sigrun to be Dwarf LIs.

[Zanallen]

The thought of a dwarf romance sickens Gaider. He vomits a little in his mouth whenever we mention it on the forums.

[TEWR]

Zanallen wrote...

The thought of a dwarf romance sickens Gaider. He vomits a little in his mouth whenever we mention it on the forums.

Hmm... so a dwarf romance is to David Gaider what a naked, drunken Oghren riding a gorilla into battle against Darkspawn is to John Epler. Interesting....

[Wulfram]

Zanallen wrote...

The real answer is that the game was designed with a male dwarf noble in mind. You weren't supposed to make a female Aeducan.

They wrote a fair amount of f!Aeducan specific content, so I don't think that's really fair.

[Xilizhra]

It sucks.

There, I just saved you thinking time.

[Sepewrath]

Zanallen wrote...

The real answer is that the game was designed with a male dwarf noble in mind. You weren't supposed to make a female Aeducan.

Yeah I get the idea, that Origin was designed for a male character. I don't know if the Dwarves know about the Broodmothers, but even if they did, I don't know if the have the numbers to effectively cut their forces in half or whatever percentage women make up. They are barely holding the Darkspawn back, a dip in forces would would weaken the line, something they cant afford. The only way to counter that would be one of two things:

Either a complete overhaul of their social system, besides just protecting women, the whole caste system has to go or be turned on its head. Casteless have to be trained into warriors and smiths, bobles have to supply just as many warriors and smiths and there has to be a focus on upping numbers, regardless of pedigree. It might not be the best situation for the ladies, becoming nothing but baby factories, but those are the breaks.

The second would be and probably would have to be instituted in conjunction with the first; is a ideology to not be taken prisoner no matter what. You kill yourself or someone else does it, but no prisoners can be allowed.

[Siduri]

Sepewrath wrote...

I don't know if the Dwarves know about the Broodmothers, but even if they did, I don't know if the have the numbers to effectively cut their forces in half or whatever percentage women make up. They are barely holding the Darkspawn back, a dip in forces would would weaken the line, something they cant afford.

That's a good point -- it would be difficult to take out the women soldiers now, even if it meant they'd have more soldiers (and the darkspawn would have fewer) a generation from now.

edited to add:

It might not be the best situation for the ladies, becoming nothing but baby factories, but those are the breaks.

They could move in this direction without going all Handmaid's Tale. They could do something like setting up a Legion of Stonemothers (or whatever) where the Assembly would give out honors, similar to military honors, for women who have more than one kid. Still sounds creepy and fascist, I know.

Modifié par Siduri, 24 août 2011 - 10:28 .