184 réponses à ce sujet

[slimgrin]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

slimgrin wrote...
I hope ME3 is pirated to hell because of this. 

Slim, piracy is not going to make things any better.

This tactic encourages piracy and they know it. So tell me then, why do publishers continue to do it? Maybe Piracy doesn't hurt them as much as we think.

[John Epler]

Without commenting on the greater subject at hand, let's avoid encouraging/condoning piracy. That's not acceptable behaviour on these forums, nor has it ever been.

[AshedMan]

If EA weren't restricting games from Steam then I would have no problem with Origin.

[billy the squid]

Veex wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

Not quite,  Valve’s policy is self-restricted to anything on your PC directly relating to its own products only. EA’s doesn't, it gives the publisher permission to scan your entire hard drive, and report back absolutely anything you may have installed, hardware, software or any peripheral tech and when you use it, then passing that information on the third parties.

Being that you've studied some law, how would one argue against Steam were it to claim that your hard drive contents or browsing habits effect its performance, and it gathered and shared that information in order to improve its service? You've already acknowledged that EULAs are left intentionally vague, Steam's isn't so restrictive that they couldn't make a legal claim at this.I can't see anyone versed in computers and law denying that the hardware and software you've got installed don't make an effect on a service like Steam or Origin.

Really, the only difference that I think is important is that EA is putting it down in black and white.

Theoretically, not even dealing with the practical nightmare of doing so.  Very briefly, one would have to prove that valve's system is collecting data which does not interact with Valve's product, but you would have to distinguish whether you could classify the entire piece of hardware as eligible for data collection, thus any existing program which has no interaction with valve's product. Or do you classify it as only those parts of software which would interact with the product within the hardware.

So one would, based on the English system, have to show, on the balance of probabilities that Valve had over extended its position to collect data that could not be reasonably seen as having merit in improving the service relating to the interaction of software with the product. How does the information passed to third parties improve a service in the context of a retailer customer relationship would also be a question.

Yet, if data with regards to information not associated to Valve or gaiming products is collected and distributed, then how does this help the developer provide a service. At which point Valve would be in potential breach of its own terms, making it easier for action to take place. In addition the risk of loss or damage to the individual should the data be stolen would also have to be taken into account, with regard to the wording of the EULA, which as the software was not used improperly, the case would be more viable, but again, he who asserts must prove, but without looking at the details and the American legal system I couldn't really comment further.

EA's statement makes no indication of any real limit, it is incredibly wide, far more than valve's which is also vague, but there is at least some limit upon which a resonable arguement could theoretically be brought. EA's EULA indicates that any information is viable to be used, how this would improve service is up to EA's interpretation. For instance, sensitive fiscal information, lets say spending habits, and how to market to me personally and in doing so try and attract my attention. Compunded by, this information could be passed on to a third party which I have not agreed to nor any idea upon which premise EA parted with this information. Is the information being passed on to vetted third parties? What information is being passed on? Is it to do with just games purchased, online usage, sensitive documentation stored which is given to another party? EA is potentially able to do all of this, and is not limited by the same, all be it loose, self imposed restriction as Valve, theoretically all it would have to do is show on the balance of probability that it felt the information may improve a service, the information is then technically property of EA, not yours.

EULAs such as this are incredibly broad in scope, and very difficult to argue against once accepted. Neither is EA liable for the actions of third parties unless one can show that they were negligent in passing on or storing that information, which is very difficult to do.

This is very over simplified and doesn't deal with the complex situations that inevitably arise when such contract terms and clauses are examined in detail.

Modifié par billy the squid, 26 août 2011 - 10:03 .

[Deathwurm]

JohnEpler wrote...

Without commenting on the greater subject at hand, let's avoid encouraging/condoning piracy. That's not acceptable behaviour on these forums, nor has it ever been.

John is 100% correct. I really don't want this Thread to be shut down...that would basically be cutting us off from getting the word about this out. And, I don't want to pay more for Games because a bunch of dishonest numbskulls are Pirating people's work!

Modifié par Deathwurm, 26 août 2011 - 10:12 .

[Erani]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

razerdoh2k wrote...
*snip*

http://tos.ea.com/le...a/US/en/ORIGIN/

Yeah I saw that. Doesn't bother me, really. They are not releasing personal information, so i'm not worried.

I don't care either. It's no secret I like yaoi and play on Steam all day long... 

[billy the squid]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

The cool thing about these threads on forums like this and articles on other sites around the world is that it can change the situation. Here is the second paragraph of their new Origin EULA which they changed because people like us thought they went too far:

2. Consent to Collection and Use of Data.

EA knows that you care how information about you is collected, used and shared, and we appreciate your trust that we will do so carefully and sensibly. Information about our customers is an important part of our business, and EA would never sell your personally identifiable information to anyone, nor would it ever use spyware or install spyware on users’ machines. We and agents acting on our behalf do not share information that personally identifies you without your consent, except in rare instances where disclosure is required by law or to enforce EA’s legal rights.

In addition to information that you give EA directly, EA collects nonpersonally identifiable (or anonymous) information for purposes of improving our products and services, providing services to you, facilitating the provision of software updates, dynamically served content and product support as well as communicating with you. The non-personally identifiable information that EA collects includes technical and related information that identifies your computer (including the Internet Protocol Address) and operating system, as well as information about your Application usage (including but not limited to successful installation and/or removal), software, software usage and peripheral hardware. As noted above, this information is gathered periodically for purposes such as improving our products and services, troubleshooting bugs, and otherwise enhancing your user experience.

This and all other data provided to EA and/or collected by EA in connection with your installation and use of this Application is collected, used, stored and transmitted in accordance with EA’s Privacy Policy located at www.ea.com. To the extent that anything in this section conflicts or is inconsistent with the terms of EA’s Privacy Policy, the terms of the Privacy Policy shall control.

It will take a while before all this is updated on their sites and localized to the different languages. It does show that posting about it helps.

My default position still remains skeptical.

"Application usage (including but not limited to successful installation and/or removal), software, software usage and peripheral hardware."

What applications? Only those which interact with EA's software or any application which remains on my computer? In combination with.

We and agents acting on our behalf do not share information that personally identifies you without your consent, except in rare instances where disclosure is required by law or to enforce EA’s legal rights.

So, applications which allow Pc users to download theoretically come under this, even if there is no evidence that I downloaded the product illegaly, by having downloaded a DRM crack I have breached the EULA stipulations and am potentially still liable.

I remain iffy on this front, personally I though they would have learnt from Ubisoft's mistakes regarding their DRM, and that of Spore. Users do not like invasive software on their system, particularly if there is little choice to accept it, bloody contracts of adhesion.

Modifié par billy the squid, 26 août 2011 - 11:18 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

I agree with you, Billy. I'll remain skeptical as well. There are still holes. I am interested to know what a legal expert has to say about the whole document.

[erynnar]

Okay my rant on the other thread about this stays then. I am skeptical too.

[billy the squid]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I agree with you, Billy. I'll remain skeptical as well. There are still holes. I am interested to know what a legal expert has to say about the whole document.

Mmm, it would be interesting, although I studied law at university, contract law is complicated and without someone with far more experience than me, giving information. I remain suspect about the "re write" and how much it actually changes the practical application of the terms.

[Deathwurm]

Nothing new as far as information...but GameSpot has a newer Article about the EULA changes up...I would not be surprised to see this making it to PCGamers' next issue.

My favorite line from the article: "While EA did not return requests for comment at the time..."

There's a surprise...

Modifié par Deathwurm, 27 août 2011 - 12:21 .

[craigdolphin]

I just want to add my voice to those who have issues with the Origin EULA.

Bioware, I hope you do not require Origin on ME3, or DA3.

I definitely want ME3 but I do not care to have Origin installed on my computer. I don't want Origin because the EULA suggests it will be scanning for non-EA-related applications, behavior, etc. As a matter of principle, I object to this. I have no concerns with you gathering information (with my permission) on the physical capabilities of my computer (cpu, gpu, ram etc), or with you scanning for your OWN software and related technologies (directx version etc), but whatever else is on my machine is, quite simply, none of your business. Behavior of that sort is how I define spyware.

I admit I will be torn if ME3 requires it. I might buy it for xbox if that is the situation. But if I am forced to abandon my preferred platform (PC) and saved games because of this, then I will be buying it secondhand as a protest measure.

I'm already on the fence pending more details about DA3. However, given my dissappointment with DA2, all doubt will be removed if it comes with Origin and if Origins still acts like spyware: no sale.

I would really prefer not to have to protest with my wallet because of this issue. I would honestly rather buy new and buy for PC (pre-orders are now out though) and reward the developers for their work.

If Origin's EULA and behavior is ammended such that the information collected about applications on my computer is restricted to EA-published software, and directly linked supporting technologies, then I'd be willing to reconsider having Origin installed if necessary for running Bioware games. But I'd still rather not need it at all.

[erynnar]

craigdolphin wrote...

I just want to add my voice to those who have issues with the Origin EULA.

Bioware, I hope you do not require Origin on ME3, or DA3.

I definitely want ME3 but I do not care to have Origin installed on my computer. I don't want Origin because the EULA suggests it will be scanning for non-EA-related applications, behavior, etc. As a matter of principle, I object to this. I have no concerns with you gathering information (with my permission) on the physical capabilities of my computer (cpu, gpu, ram etc), or with you scanning for your OWN software and related technologies (directx version etc), but whatever else is on my machine is, quite simply, none of your business. Behavior of that sort is how I define spyware.

I admit I will be torn if ME3 requires it. I might buy it for xbox if that is the situation. But if I am forced to abandon my preferred platform (PC) and saved games because of this, then I will be buying it secondhand as a protest measure.

I'm already on the fence pending more details about DA3. However, given my dissappointment with DA2, all doubt will be removed if it comes with Origin and if Origins still acts like spyware: no sale.

I would really prefer not to have to protest with my wallet because of this issue. I would honestly rather buy new and buy for PC (pre-orders are now out though) and reward the developers for their work.

If Origin's EULA and behavior is ammended such that the information collected about applications on my computer is restricted to EA-published software, and directly linked supporting technologies, then I'd be willing to reconsider having Origin installed if necessary for running Bioware games. But I'd still rather not need it at all.

Same here. Craig said it very well. I prefer not to vote with my wallet, but I will. Preorders are out, but I would like to buy new and buy for my PC.

[Manic Sheep]

I was on the fence and just going to wait and see what happens with origin until recently. Allot of the **** said about it tbh just seemed to be people finding excuse to hate on it because its EA and competing with steam. That is until I found out its basically spyware and you can't opt out of it. I don’t want it on my computer if that is the case. They should only be motoring things actually related to origin. If ME3 requires I might just give it miss despite my love of ME. There are other games I want anyway.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 27 août 2011 - 01:28 .

[Turnip Root]

Lol at all the comments about how this "encourages piracy." You guys are going to pirate no matter what and you know it because despite all your BS rhetoric about sticking it to the man it's really just about you getting stuff for free.

Get off your high horses and admit you're the parasitic, thieving scourge on the industry that you know you are.

Modifié par Turnip Root, 27 août 2011 - 01:22 .

[Chromie]

So you just got back from a temp ban and ready for another one Root?

[Turnip Root]

I'm not breaking any rules.

You guys do this every single time. "Oh I wouldn't pirate it if only *insert BS excuse here*."

Even if EA removes all DRM from their games you guys are still going to find some lame excuse to steal like "I want to try it before I buy it".

Even though the few who actually do end up buying it only do so after a year or so when it's 2 dollars on Steam.

Origin is a exceptional digital distribution service and the claims that EA can steal your personal information are completely BOGUS!
You guys are going to believe it anyways because you need that excuse to whitewash your criminal behaviour.  You guys don't want EA to be good because you know it would make you guys look like the bad guys.

Modifié par Turnip Root, 27 août 2011 - 01:32 .

[dragonfire100]

I kinda think its a ripoff when it comes to PC games steam to me is a much better offer.

[billy the squid]

Turnip Root wrote...

Lol at all the comments about how this "encourages piracy." You guys are going to pirate no matter what and you know it because despite all your BS rhetoric about sticking it to the man it's really just about you getting stuff for free.

Get off your high horses and admit you're the parasitic, thieving scourge on the industry that you know you are.

As opposed to hacked xbox 360s and PS3s which remain an ongoing problem. I suggest you get of your high horse.

Modifié par billy the squid, 27 août 2011 - 01:45 .

[Homebound]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...
i dont care whos doing it, they all need to STOP. and if i can prevent myself from being a victim to ANOTHER entity, I SHALL.

Your original statement was that you didn't like Origin because they shared personal info.
That was refuted.
You then said it was illegal for them to share any kind of info with third-parties.
That was refuted.
Then you move on to "well, nobody should do it, so there".

How far do you wish to move that goalpost?

You should probably stop using the bank, too.

I am not using Origin.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

If you do not feel unfortable by its EULA and if you feel fine with the one year limitation then you sound like the perfect customer for EA.

I never read the EULA. Perhaps this is considered foolish, but there it is.

The one year limitation doesn't bother me at all. If I can download installation files I can back them up as many times as I like--something I can't do with Steam. I don't understand why a 'one year limitation' is so bothersome to people who, I presume, grew up in a time when all games came on CDs and floppy disks, all of which could be damaged or corrupted with relative ease. If Steam ever goes out of business and ceases to be, we presumably won't even have install files.

But anyway, I should finish this by pointing out I haven't purchased anything via the Origin store. I got DA:O through Steam and was able to download it again (free, using my purchase code) through Origin. I got DA2 through GamersGate, and can do the same thing if I like. So thus far, I don't see Origin doing me any damage--it's been a really nice convenience, actually. I have plenty of issues with EA, but Origin has yet to be one of them (...except for having the gall to 'borrow' the name of my favourite gaming company ever, whom they acquired and drove out of business with bad game-changing decisions ).

[AngryFrozenWater]

Oh. If you didn't read then I am not even reading your response now. Sorry, Shadow.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 27 août 2011 - 01:58 .

[Homebound]

heres another question, why would you even WANT to use origin? is it your desire? or a necessity to play the games you bought?

[Zeevico]

What's wrong with Origins?
Nothing so far as I can tell. Great store and great policies but poor tech support.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Oh. If you didn't read then I am not even reading your response now. Sorry, Shadow.

...then I'm sorry I wasted my time on what I thought was a reasonable and well-throught reply.