45 réponses à ce sujet

[DreGregoire]

esper wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

esper wrote...

Considering that Cullen doesn't notice you casting spell right in front of his eye I would say a pretty silly plothole, but I don't think that the templars have anything to find apostates with. I think that the templars finding the mages laying low is because of the people who lives next door. Nobody noticed Fenriyel apparently untill his mother decided to contact the circle.

Well Cullen not noticing is a necessary evil.  They either had to make the story even more convoluted by making sure no combat happened with a non-hostile templar nearby, only let us play warriors and rogues, or handwave the battle mechanics.  They made the best decision IMO.

Still, they have to have some way of verifying magery.  Bethany, the sanest mage in the Free Marches and very well trained by an exceptionally gifted apostate father, gets caught.  Meanwhile Kelder bursts into the Gallows going "Help, the demons won't stop telling me to molest children!" and they told him to ****** off.  ...  Then again, a templar personally investigates--borderline stalks--Gascard DuPois and doesn't notice he's not just a mage but a blood mage and n00b necromancer.  'the hell?

All right, I can see why Cullen was a necessary evil, and I admit that I roleplay it as him playing stupid on purpose because Hawke more and less agrees to hunt blood mages. I roleplay it as Cullen playing dumb on purpose because if he told Meridith that he as a knight captain let a mage walk.... He does know that Anders is a mage.
I thought Bethany was caught because she casts some spell in the night and she was no longer protected by a large and powerfull group full of murderous people. I have never gotten a non-mage Hawke as far, but it sounded like the 'friendly' neighbourhood watch to me.  

You know I don't really feel like it's about if Cullen knows you are a mage or not; or for that matter if anybody knows you are. In my opinion, Hawke is such a large force of power (mage or not) that a smart templar or other person wouldn't make the attempt to arrest mage him or sister Bethany without a guarentee of survival. Every companion Hawke has expresses that people would have to be crazy to take him on. Even Meredith is aware of mage Hawkes mageness and chooses not to confront him because of his strength and then later his power (not that she doesn't try to use him being a mage against him or Bethany for that matter if Hawke isn't a mage). Before going into the deep roads, or rather about going into the deep roads there is mention of the templars possibly closing in on mage Hawke, so non mage Hawke leaving Bethany behind leaves her without Hawke to protect her. If Hawke had been gone any longer he would have missed Bethany being taken in, I still think he should have missed it for it to make sense (that's another topic though lol). So I don't really see it as a glaring plot hole. Just my take on it. I know it's mainly up to interpretation of the player.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 25 août 2011 - 08:01 .

[esper]

DreGregoire wrote...

esper wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

esper wrote...

Considering that Cullen doesn't notice you casting spell right in front of his eye I would say a pretty silly plothole, but I don't think that the templars have anything to find apostates with. I think that the templars finding the mages laying low is because of the people who lives next door. Nobody noticed Fenriyel apparently untill his mother decided to contact the circle.

Well Cullen not noticing is a necessary evil.  They either had to make the story even more convoluted by making sure no combat happened with a non-hostile templar nearby, only let us play warriors and rogues, or handwave the battle mechanics.  They made the best decision IMO.

Still, they have to have some way of verifying magery.  Bethany, the sanest mage in the Free Marches and very well trained by an exceptionally gifted apostate father, gets caught.  Meanwhile Kelder bursts into the Gallows going "Help, the demons won't stop telling me to molest children!" and they told him to ****** off.  ...  Then again, a templar personally investigates--borderline stalks--Gascard DuPois and doesn't notice he's not just a mage but a blood mage and n00b necromancer.  'the hell?

All right, I can see why Cullen was a necessary evil, and I admit that I roleplay it as him playing stupid on purpose because Hawke more and less agrees to hunt blood mages. I roleplay it as Cullen playing dumb on purpose because if he told Meridith that he as a knight captain let a mage walk.... He does know that Anders is a mage.
I thought Bethany was caught because she casts some spell in the night and she was no longer protected by a large and powerfull group full of murderous people. I have never gotten a non-mage Hawke as far, but it sounded like the 'friendly' neighbourhood watch to me.  

You know I don't really feel like it's about if Cullen knows you are a mage or not; or for that matter if anybody knows you are. In my opinion, Hawke is such a large force of power (mage or not) that a smart templar or other person wouldn't make the attempt to arrest mage him or sister Bethany without a guarentee of survival. Every companion Hawke has expresses that people would have to be crazy to take him on. Even Meredith is aware of mage Hawkes mageness and chooses not to confront him because of his strength and then later his power. Before going into the deep roads, or rather about going into the deep roads there is mention of the templars possibly closing in on mage Hawke, so non mage Hawke leaving Bethany behind leaves her without Hawke to protect her. If Hawke had been gone any longer he would have missed Bethany being taken in, I still think he should have missed it for it to make sense (that's another topic though lol). So I don't really see it as a glaring plot hole. Just my take on it. I know it's mainly up to interpretation of the player.

Yeah, Cullen was saying something about dark rumors about my Hawke so she saw it as a reason to get out of Kirkwall fast and into the deep roads.
I roleplay it as the templars ignoring you because with all the apostate/blood mages running around. The real powerfull one with all the dangerous friends and money is just not on top of their list. They properly has a let's catch the apostates that will murder least templars first and then concentrate on the more powerfull afterwards.
 I agree that is properly why they swoop down on unprocted Bethany. And we should really just had seen a cutscene of her being taking away when we finished with the Deep road final battle. But the execution of such a reason could have been explained/showed better.

[maxernst]

@DreGregoire, I think that reasoning really only works for Acts 2 & 3. In act 1, Hawke is still a "lowtown thug", so it's hard to see his reputation protecting him and Bethany. It really bothers me that you can throw spells around so blithely in the middle of a city full of Templars. And before people start in with the how gameplay is more important than the lore, I would argue that not being able to cast spells in public without consequences would not only be more consistent with the lore, but more fun. Of course, you would have to allow mages to arm themselves with regular weapons to make it playable, but I think it would add an interesting element of challenge to the otherwise tedious mook fights in the streets of Kirkwall.

[DreGregoire]

maxernst wrote...

@DreGregoire, I think that reasoning really only works for Acts 2 & 3. In act 1, Hawke is still a "lowtown thug", so it's hard to see his reputation protecting him and Bethany. It really bothers me that you can throw spells around so blithely in the middle of a city full of Templars. And before people start in with the how gameplay is more important than the lore, I would argue that not being able to cast spells in public without consequences would not only be more consistent with the lore, but more fun. Of course, you would have to allow mages to arm themselves with regular weapons to make it playable, but I think it would add an interesting element of challenge to the otherwise tedious mook fights in the streets of Kirkwall.

I can definately understand your thinking but in my eyes; the influence of his friends and the favors he is bestowing upon certain parties aids in keeping the templars from setting their sight on him; as well as the fact that the year he spent building a name and reputation for himself was enough to make anybody second guess attempting to publically take note of mage Hawke's or Bethany's abilities. And then there is the time frame between being protected by the smuggler or merchant and the trip into the Deep Roads isn't very long, of course they leave it to us to determine the amount of time. But it's not enough time to confront mage Hawke or take Bethany in. We don't know if they would have gone for Hawke or not because the deep roads removed him from Kirkwall and then Hawke rises in power. 

Not to mention that you have the option of Hawke to put your hand in almost every aspect of Kirkwall life; from taking down the bad element that plagues the night streets of Kirkwall (including hightown) to becoming emboiled within the templar/mage battle (for lack of a better word right now).
 

[Conduit0]

maxernst wrote...

@DreGregoire, I think that reasoning really only works for Acts 2 & 3. In act 1, Hawke is still a "lowtown thug", so it's hard to see his reputation protecting him and Bethany. It really bothers me that you can throw spells around so blithely in the middle of a city full of Templars. And before people start in with the how gameplay is more important than the lore, I would argue that not being able to cast spells in public without consequences would not only be more consistent with the lore, but more fun. Of course, you would have to allow mages to arm themselves with regular weapons to make it playable, but I think it would add an interesting element of challenge to the otherwise tedious mook fights in the streets of Kirkwall.

I would have to disagree completely. Not being able to cast spells in the city would ruin the game as a mage player. Easily 2/3rds of the game takes place in the city, which means you'd spend the majority of the game playing a warrior/rogue with less damage, lower armor and defense, and less health. That would not be fun in any sense of the word. If such restrictions were limited to certain specific areas, such as the Gallows, or a few quests, it might spice things up, but then again, it probably just make those areas and quests tedious and annoying instead.

As for mage hunting, I seriously doubt that templars have "Mage-Ray Vision" that lets them see through apostate disguises with just a glance. Otherwise short of doing it Witch of Wilds style, it would be impossible for an apostate to live anywhere near civilization and not get caught. I suspect that most apostates fall victim to being ratted out by suspicious locals, rather than through any clairvoyance on the part of the Templars. Although, I'm sure the Templars are trained to look for subtle signs and clues that might give an apostate away, much in the way police are trained to look for suspicious activity.
However it also seems all but certain that the Circles have ways of verifying the presence of magic with certainty once someone is brought in, otherwise I would think Circles would be overrun with the falsely accused.

[Gervaise]

Strangely enough the Templars seem to be very visible by day in Kirkwall,as are the guard, but almost non existant at night, which is actually when the majority of the magic wielding takes place in the streets - so it would seem that the Templars like to keep away from the nasty underbelly of the city unless ordered to go seek apostates from the Circle and have definite clue that they are there - from the phylactery.  

I am pretty certain someone pointed the figure at Gamlen's house - possibly a certain Chantry sister who was really upset after you didn't die as planned and had her original base just across the street, plus would have seen the magic wielding used to save her bacon - for some reason you are also given the opportunity to insist she knows your name if you wish.   However, there are plenty of people who Hawke has upset during Act 1 who, if not dead, would report the presence of apostate mage Hawke or sister when they felt the time was right.   I'm actually quite surprised that Grace didn't on my latest run through since that is what she threatened when my mage handed her over to the Templars in Act 1.  It was certainly no surprise that she did turn on me in Act 3.

One of the biggest anomalies of magic use (or in fact any aggression being shown) is the fact that you can enter the Chantry at night with Isabella, have a big fight with a person ostensibly seeking sanctuary there and no Templars come rushing out to find out what is going on.   I can only assume that after the failed attempt to take us over the Karl incident that the Templars based in the Chantry now hear a voice that sounds familiar, stick their heads under the pillow and pray to the Maker that you'll go away.  

[Torax]

Cullen ignores you for reasons within the plot.

It's the Guard that first sees you using magic and not the Templars. At the time you were using your spells to help the Guards against rioting refugees/deserters. You basically were doing the Guards a favor. After that you become connected with groups experienced in paying off the authorities and keeping their gaze away from you. Having a friend in the Guard especially helpful since it would help to vouch for your actions if there are questions. When Cullen finally comes across you it's when he is being attacked by an abomination of a Templar. You were actually investigating the same problem he was after. It was a win/win for him. The reason you were there was helping the Templars by default since you were looking for a missing recruit of his.

Much like Ser Bryant he has much worse things to do deal with than yet another mage around Kirkwall. Especially one whose hobby appeared to be killing blood mages and bandits day in and day out. Expecting him to shackle you is is absurd. Would be like if he was 3' tall and he needed something off a 6' high shelf. If someone taller walked by saying they were looking for the same thing would he be wrong to accept their help? That analogy works since his own investigation was getting him nowhere after all and the end result helped to return a lost recruit. Even more so later when he discovers later that your last name was Amell. No matter what an Amell in the Fereldon Circle did exist and was the prized pupil of First Enchanter. He'd remember that despite what happened there.

The social ques makes sense for Origins and to a point also for Dragon Age. By not being members of the Circle it would help them with the majority of their interactions by having a more normal upbringing by a Father that would have taught them to mask their actions and motivations compared to a Circle Mage. Anders got a pass of sorts since Varric helped to keep them off his back plus he was healing the refugees so the Templars didn't have to deal with them as much.

Morrigan saying that what others think of a Witch of the Wilds as not being her is a few things. Firstly they are feared as monsters of which she doesn't appear to be one. Most would be looking for a very old Witch of Legend and not a younger one. Most would naively just see a beautiful young woman who sounds worldly and highly educated so likely just as a foreigner and not someone from the Wilds. Also many times she'd just move around as an animal anyway on her own. No one suspects that smaller dog at the ending ceremony near Sten hehe.

Social ques are true though and since Origins cannot base all it's interactions on what you actually have equipped? It would likely assume a few things. 1. You recieved the Signet and Mage Robes. Many of the main Templars would have likely talked to Gregoir and Irving and considering how much Irving seemed to love (Not that way) the Mage Warden? Odds are you would have been brought up over the years.

Lastly, the main reason so many end up in the Circle is due to the fact that when their powers first manifest it's not controlled and that is why they get caught. That is why Connor was being trained. So he could control and hide his magic not master it. Big difference. Same reason why so many young mage children will be killed by a mob. The second they set something on fire or freeze something on accident, they'll be blamed for other issues. Even all the shackle'n of the Kossith Mages is about control of their powers. To all non magic users it's a feared unknown.

[Wulfram]

If Cullen knew Hawke was a mage, why does he say things like "Mages aren't like you and me"?

[Sepewrath]

Well I don't think the staff actually exist in regards to lore, its just a game mechanic, a mage doesn't need a staff. But I would think the way Templar's find apostate mages is the same way police in the real world find people. Hints and news out the area, if someone is suspected of using magic, someone probably goes to the Chantry and tells them and the Templar's come knocking. Now how they would confirm whether or not their a mage, is a mystery to me.

[DPSSOC]

It's pretty much this (sorry I couldn't help myself)

Modifié par DPSSOC, 27 août 2011 - 04:01 .

[dragonflight288]

It's pretty much this (sorry I couldn't help myself)

LOL

[DreGregoire]

Wulfram wrote...

If Cullen knew Hawke was a mage, why does he say things like "Mages aren't like you and me"?

It's a test to see if Hawke fesses up, but Alas Hawke pretends not to be that which he/she is. I can't imagine why Hawke would do that. Heh. LOL.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 28 août 2011 - 04:55 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

This is the reason why the mages will never lose a war, really:

[Sajuro]

maxernst wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Though I think that they might be able to sense magical or demonic activity when it's active, like Ser Otto in the alienage.

Kirkwall's templars, however, seem to have lost the ability to use common sense, let alone templar abilities.

I think it's because the entirety of Kirkwall is like that orphanage. Their templar sense is going off constantly, and they lose the precision that templars would be able to have elsewhere.

That explanation might work, but it doesn't account for the loss of common sense by the population of Kirkwall in general.

Lyrium in the water, torn fade

[Augustei]

maxernst wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Gervaise wrote...

If a mage has never been in the Circle and therefore there is no phylactery, is there any way of spotting them if they do not use their magic?    The blood sample allows Templars to track a specific mage but does their lyirum fix help them sense a general aura that the mage carries with them or would a mage be able to walk right past them without them knowing it?  (Assuming that they are not carrying a dirty great staff which is a bit of a giveaway).

Near as I can tell, if a mages doesn't "go bright" and cast spells, it's almost impossible for a Templar to spot them without a phylactery or some other aid.

-Polaris

How can it be so hard?  Most casters are conveniently labeled "blood mage" or "circle mage".  I guess the people with actual names can be confusing.

Extremely confusing.. If they have the last name Hawke then even if they cast magic right in front of you, its still uncertain if they are a mage.. Even if they are wearing robes and have a staff. The templars just cant be sure

[DreGregoire]

To argue against the whole, the templars should recognize me as a mage because of what you are equipped with:

The thing is despite your decision to wear a robe (by the way the Viscount essentially wears a robe) that in of itself doesn't mean you are a mage.

You choose to wear a staff; however, I seriously doubt you would actually wear one on your back when you are wandering around Kirkwall during the day.

One of the things that has started to bother me in DA2 is that when I try to unequip myself of weapons the game gives me default weapons. I don't like that!

Oh and I think the guradsmen are watching me. The other day I came out of Uncle Gamlens house and a guardsman was lounging against the building across the way and when he saw me leave he wandered off in the direction of Hightown. Dang that Aveline! LOL.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 29 août 2011 - 05:06 .

[dragonflight288]

Spears, easiest weapon to make and use. Staff with bladed end like Hawke uses, may as well be a spear. If it has a mace on it, just means you can get a good swing on it. There's a long and deadly history of such weapons in real life.

[DreGregoire]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Spears, easiest weapon to make and use. Staff with bladed end like Hawke uses, may as well be a spear. If it has a mace on it, just means you can get a good swing on it. There's a long and deadly history of such weapons in real life.

You know I didn't even think about that but you are right that often the mage's staff appears more like a spear in game. Yeah I'm going to use that line. "Staff? What staff? This is my spear! I've trained extensively with it. Want a demonstration? No? Okay then, take care Ser Templar." LOL.

That aside staves are also used in combat by some, it's another discipline in of itself. Could it mark you as a mage? Sure, but it could also mark you as an eccentric individual who likes less pointy weapons.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 29 août 2011 - 08:46 .

[BigEvil]

The spear idea is a good one, and a couple of the staff designs sort of look a bit like scythes too. Also, if the mage in question is an older person, get a staff that's more wooden than metal, and lean on it a lot. After all, you wouldn't part an old man from his walking stick would you?

The less robey clothes in DA2 would also be better for blending in, like the ones Bethany wears, the ones given to mage Hawke at the start of Act 1 from the mercenaries/smugglers, and some of the dlc robes.

[thats1evildude]

Gervaise wrote...

If a mage has never been in the Circle and therefore there is no phylactery, is there any way of spotting them if they do not use their magic?

One easy way of spotting apostates is to watch for abominations rampaging through town and slaughtering passerby. That's usually a strong clue.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 29 août 2011 - 09:56 .

[Northern Sun]

For Cullen in Act 1, I like to assume that since his back was turned from Hawke's party, he assumed that all the spells were from the demons/abominations they were fighting.