110 réponses à ce sujet

[jamesp81]

I love the idea of the Chantry, and the history of its founding.  I think it's pretty awesome how a barbarian lady brought down a terrible empire and also served as the prophet for her god.  I like the community works it does.  My characters across both games always seek the blessing of the priest in every Chantry he visits.  My Warden and Hawke both believe in the teachings and the history of the Chantry.

I love the Chantry.  Love the concept of the Templars as well.  A knightly order that swears itself to fight some of the most hideous monsters the Fade has to offer.  I was quite annoyed that DA2 changed the mage/templar relationship from one of "watchful tension" to the templars being "lulz for the evulz".  It's so pedestrian.  For once I'd like to have a fantasy story where the religious order of knights wasn't portrayed as being so evil.  The only one I can think of is the expansion to Oblivion called Knights of the Nine.

Within the framework that was forced on my characters, however, I really really hate some of the people that work in the Chantry.  Ser Alrik and Meredith being the two prime examples.  Elthina was a good woman that I always felt shirked her responsibility where Meredith's excesses were concerned.  The Divine in Orlais seems a bit trigger happy on the exalted marches, considering two of them across the two games (one against Orzammar and one against Kirkwall).  I suspect the Divine cares more about Orlesian power than the faithful of the Chantry.

It's for this reason that, even though my characters are hardcore Andrastians, they can't exactly condemn Anders.  After what they did to the mages in Kirkwall, a man like Anders was inevitable.

[Sir Edric]

I agree on that BW makes the templar look like the bad guys. Sure, there where 'good' templars, but most where evil and meaaaaaan. Well, all the blood mages aside, templars are shown as the worse guys. Same thing was done with Loghain in DA2.<_<

Modifié par Vrex_12, 25 août 2011 - 04:47 .

[whykikyouwhy]

I don't know that DA2 "changed" the mage/templar relationship so much as it showed one pocket of it in full focus. We saw some tension regarding mages in DA:O but Fereldan was a much broader realm. With DA2's narrowing down our field of vision to one city, we get to see how power and fear, when combined, could yield a hostile environment.

Kirkwall may be an anomaly - it's sitting on a hellmouth after all, and people may be feeling the vibrations of trapped evil. There are unique forces at work that were probably influencing a lot of the actions of mages and templars alike.

I think in general, Bioware has shown the Chantry to be like most large (and faith-based) organizations - there is good, there is altruism, there is the desire to make something "better" but sometimes those desires, in the hands of a select few who may be selfish, frightened or greedy, turn into something negative. Thus starting a cycle of abuse that becomes difficult to rectify. It's the whole adage of power corrrupting.

[Xilizhra]

I was quite annoyed that DA2 changed the mage/templar relationship from one of "watchful tension" to the templars being "lulz for the evulz". It's so pedestrian. For once I'd like to have a fantasy story where the religious order of knights wasn't portrayed as being so evil. The only one I can think of is the expansion to Oblivion called Knights of the Nine.

Religious fanatic prison guards for everyone with a certain biological condition, convinced they have a divine right to dominate them, do evil things? News at 11!

[Gervaise]

The Chantry does seem to have got some things wrong at least in Kirkwall - the interpretation they put on the teachings of Andraste that magic is in itself a curse when the Chant of Light quite clearly states that it is a gift of the maker and that only those who abuse it are cursed.    At some point I would like the PC to be able to challenge someone on this.

However, for me Elthina comes across as one of the better examples of the Chantry.  To some extent you only get his if you have the exiled prince content because then she quite clearly states that she swore an oath to protect the people of Kirkwal and the Freemarches and she is not going to run away from that duty even when she is warned she is in danger.  She backs Meredith because there is a real problem of blood mages and abominations in Kirkwall that put the population at risk but she is sensitive to Orsino's complaints.  There is also an interesting conversation between Sebastian and Averline in Act 3 when he states that the Grand Cleric is concerned because Meredith is not longer taking her advice.  This was after I had spoken to her (again a conversation not in the basic game) and specifically asked her to try and mediate a peaceful solution and she agreed to try and broker a compromise.   This puts into context what Anders says at the end.  He knows she is working at a compromise and he doesn't want it to succeed.   Elthina does not condone either what Petrice does or the bounty that Sebastian puts out. 

The game does tend to put the Templars in a bad light because it would appear they know that Meredith is no longer acting by the code of their faith but only do something about it after the Rite of Anulment has been enacted.    Earlier in the game examples of corrupt Templars are to some extent offset by the compassionate ones.  I think one has to look at it from the point of view of any law enforcement where there may be corrupt individuals and the higher up the chain of command they are, the harder it is to dislodge them.

So I would say that when the Chantry is operating as it should then it is a force protecting both the ordinary populace and mages from exploitation but too often there is scope for its power to be abused.

[Xilizhra]

However, for me Elthina comes across as one of the better examples of the Chantry. To some extent you only get his if you have the exiled prince content because then she quite clearly states that she swore an oath to protect the people of Kirkwal and the Freemarches and she is not going to run away from that duty even when she is warned she is in danger. She backs Meredith because there is a real problem of blood mages and abominations in Kirkwall that put the population at risk but she is sensitive to Orsino's complaints.

Then Elthina is either an utter dimwit or a despicable hypocrite who doesn't consider mages to be people, because she's sure as hell shirking her responsibilities to them and doing absolutely zilch to protect them. She's happy so long as she can convince herself that she's doing well by the people she can actually see because they're not locked in the Gallows, and when nothing upsets her precious status quo. Elthina is a pathetic example of the Chantry's "goodness," if it has any.

[Mr.House]

To be fair, almost all non party members where lunatics anyways so it's not just the Templars and blood mages that where evil or crazy.

[Gervaise]

Xilizhra - you only quote half of what I wrote. In the my latest run through with Exiled Prince download in place Elthina is doing something but Meredith ignores her and then Anders blows her up. The two extreme viewpoints basically ensure that war will occur which will not benefit either the majority of the population or the majority of mages. Elthina is trying for a peaceful compromise but is let down by those around her.

When I have played as a mage, my Hawke has done their utmost to promote the image of mages which they realise is the first stage to bringing about peaceful change. I have always worked from the starting point of wanting mages to have far greater freedom than they currently possess but acknowledging that there has to be some form of education and regulation to protect the mages as much as anyone else. So, for example, an open Circle where mages go to learn and experiment with magic but continue to live in the community, while the Templars act as a law enforcement agency to ensure that abuses do not occur.

Unless you are as blinkered as Anders, you cannot condone the excesses that are occuring outside the Circle because the simple answer to get the Templars off their backs is to stop doing the magic. The mages outside the Circle are being deliberately provocative. As far back as Act 1 there are blood mages mind controlling people, encouraging them to kill themselves and forcing demon possession on them. How exactly are the Templars meant to respond? By Act 3, as we walk the streets at night, we are no longer just attacked by normal thieves and slavers but blood mage controlled thralls. This is an extremely bad situation and will be considerably adding to the paranoia that Meredith feels. It will also be why Elthina, no doubt made aware by frightened citizens coming to pray in the Chantry, feels she has no choice but to continue to back Meredith in public while trying to work out something behind the scenes.

If you support freedom for mages, why do you not support freedom for all people? Having your mind controlled by demons or blood mages and being force to do their will is slavery.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Mages are underdogs, they will always have popular support. The city Elves and casteless Dwarves be damned.

[Xilizhra]

Xilizhra - you only quote half of what I wrote. In the my latest run through with Exiled Prince download in place Elthina is doing something but Meredith ignores her and then Anders blows her up. The two extreme viewpoints basically ensure that war will occur which will not benefit either the majority of the population or the majority of mages. Elthina is trying for a peaceful compromise but is let down by those around her.

Any attempt at compromise at this stage is moral cowardice. The only thing that would have helped is to end Meredith's career, ideally at the point of Leliana's dagger, but if she could just be fired, that would work too. And the war ultimately will benefit the majority of mages, at least down the road.

When I have played as a mage, my Hawke has done their utmost to promote the image of mages which they realise is the first stage to bringing about peaceful change. I have always worked from the starting point of wanting mages to have far greater freedom than they currently possess but acknowledging that there has to be some form of education and regulation to protect the mages as much as anyone else. So, for example, an open Circle where mages go to learn and experiment with magic but continue to live in the community, while the Templars act as a law enforcement agency to ensure that abuses do not occur.

Which is very idealistic and commendable and ultimately totally unworkable because the Chantry will never willingly give up its power. Though I'm sure you helped some ordinary citizens side with the mages, which is good.

As far back as Act 1 there are blood mages mind controlling people, encouraging them to kill themselves and forcing demon possession on them. How exactly are the Templars meant to respond?

Not raping the Circle for things that didn't have anything to do with them, maybe? Perhaps actually competently enforcing the don't-have-demons-kill-people part of their job instead of abusing their own charges?

It will also be why Elthina, no doubt made aware by frightened citizens coming to pray in the Chantry, feels she has no choice but to continue to back Meredith in public while trying to work out something behind the scenes.

Elthina was the one dumb enough to appoint Meredith in the first place. I have no faith in her here.

If you support freedom for mages, why do you not support freedom for all people? Having your mind controlled by demons or blood mages and being force to do their will is slavery.

What makes you think I don't? I kill everyone who does that just as hard.

Mages are underdogs, they will always have popular support. The city Elves and casteless Dwarves be damned.

-Became Bann of the Alienage
-Had Bhelen improve the lot of the casteless
Sorry, what was that again?

Modifié par Xilizhra, 25 août 2011 - 06:42 .

[Jestina]

Please don't fondle Andraste.

I thought Grey Wardens were exempt from being chased by the templars so the part with Anders didn't make much sense to me.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Improved the lot of the Casteless? You mean you allowed them to become human (well... Dwarven) shields for the Warrior Caste? Great. Can a casteless open a shop in the diamond quarter? No. Their lot has not improved significantly.

And congratulations, you earned a useless title. The actual Banns and Arls are not going to listen to some elven upstart. Or even if they were, they aren't going to listen to the next Bann of the Alienage. You may have improved the lot for a pocket of city Elves, but the rest of them, have it just as bad. And IIRC the Warden as a Bann of the alienage, actually causes a riot in DEnerim a few years later, because the human population is enraged at the Elven prosperity.

Both the Casteless and the city Elves have it far worse than any mage ever had it, yet the mages are the poor "slaves" and as such is in much more dire need of rescue.

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

Then Elthina is either an utter dimwit or a despicable hypocrite who doesn't consider mages to be people, because she's sure as hell shirking her responsibilities to them and doing absolutely zilch to protect them. She's happy so long as she can convince herself that she's doing well by the people she can actually see because they're not locked in the Gallows, and when nothing upsets her precious status quo. Elthina is a pathetic example of the Chantry's "goodness," if it has any.

I don't see any censored words, therefor you have not described Elthina accurately.

It's amazing how many people totally buy Elthina's "neutrality" crap. If there's a lunatic with a knife chasing you and you manage to find a cop, is he allowed to "be neutral"?

[dragonflight288]

Granted, most city-elves have honestly come to see themselves as inferior. Cousland origin story. If you're male and flirt with the elven servant of your mother's friend, she says she doesn't wish to get involved with nobility any more than she has too because she's a servant to a noble, and doesn't want her child to get visions of being anything more because it's not possible for elves.

And most casteless would gladly fight as shields for the army of Orzammar if it meant getting more rights.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Both the Casteless and the city Elves have it far worse than any mage ever had it, yet the mages are the poor "slaves" and as such is in much more dire need of rescue.

The casteless are part of a completely different society that a non-dwarf has limited access to and even less influence over.  However, by selecting Bhelen you CAN do something.  It's imperfect and only a start, but all change has to start somewhere.

As for the City Elves, I have near zero respect for them.  They choose to be subjegated and have a victim mentality (in this I think the Dalish have the City Elves pegged to a tee).  However, the Dalish DO have legal rights (if often ignored or badly implemented).  In most places City Elves for example are allowed to live where they like and do what they like (technically).  That puts them a huge leg up over the mages who have no legal rights.

-Polaris

[esper]

I used to think that the chantry was all right. I really liked the concept of Andraste, then I looked at what the chantry says about the Maker and now the chantry is on my most hated list, just under the Qun.
And Elthina.... Elthina suceeded in making me dislike a character which is pretty hard to do.

[Xilizhra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Improved the lot of the Casteless? You mean you allowed them to become human (well... Dwarven) shields for the Warrior Caste? Great. Can a casteless open a shop in the diamond quarter? No. Their lot has not improved significantly.

And congratulations, you earned a useless title. The actual Banns and Arls are not going to listen to some elven upstart. Or even if they were, they aren't going to listen to the next Bann of the Alienage. You may have improved the lot for a pocket of city Elves, but the rest of them, have it just as bad. And IIRC the Warden as a Bann of the alienage, actually causes a riot in DEnerim a few years later, because the human population is enraged at the Elven prosperity.

Both the Casteless and the city Elves have it far worse than any mage ever had it, yet the mages are the poor "slaves" and as such is in much more dire need of rescue.

Disagreements with that aside (I also have the ear of the royal family and am Arlessa of Amaranthine), the reason we aren't talking about these two as much is because they haven't started a worldwide revolution yet and as such there isn't as much content to talk about. Also, mages are far worse off than both in Kirkwall.

[whykikyouwhy]

Perhaps I missed the codex entry where it was stated that the city elves *chose* to be subjegated...

So...back to the Chantry? Templars and such, yes? We should narrow down what we are drawing lines in the sand over.

[dragonflight288]

I personally believe the Chantry is like a pretty shiny glowing mausoleum. It is washed, looks nice, but if you ask question and dig into the interior, you get a lot of decay and corruption.

[whykikyouwhy]

@dragonflight288 - That sounds very much like a rotten Twinkie.

[Rifneno]

IanPolaris wrote...

The casteless are part of a completely different society that a non-dwarf has limited access to and even less influence over.  However, by selecting Bhelen you CAN do something.  It's imperfect and only a start, but all change has to start somewhere.

As for the City Elves, I have near zero respect for them.  They choose to be subjegated and have a victim mentality (in this I think the Dalish have the City Elves pegged to a tee).  However, the Dalish DO have legal rights (if often ignored or badly implemented).  In most places City Elves for example are allowed to live where they like and do what they like (technically).  That puts them a huge leg up over the mages who have no legal rights.

Really?  I felt the opposite.  That is, that Dalish were worse than the City elves.  Hmm, is "city elf" capitalized?  Anyway Dalish elves are self-righteous, hateful, murderous pricks.  ...  Okay, that was too generalized, but they have far too much of that type.  City elves have some too but most of them will just call you a shem at worst.  Dalish elves will shoot you on sight half the time unless you're a PC.  And the city elves (City Elves?  Damnit!  Where's a grammar **** when you need one?), while they do have the legal rights to move out of the alienage there's still a LOT of prejudice on both sides that'll prevent an elf from getting nearly as far in society as if he were a human.

[dragonflight288]

@dragonflight288 - That sounds very much like a rotten Twinkie.

lol

Modifié par dragonflight288, 25 août 2011 - 07:17 .

[Rifneno]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

@dragonflight288 - That sounds very much like a rotten Twinkie.

Haha.  I commend your commitment to marketing the phrase "rotten twinkie."  I wish I had stuck with "oil city" that much.

Modifié par Rifneno, 25 août 2011 - 07:19 .

[Gervaise]

Hold on a minute, there are two principle leaders with whom Elthina must consult - Meredith and Orsino. The latter complains about Meredith abusing her power by not appointing a Vicount and is enciting the people to object. However, when Elthina arrives and he has a great opportunity of saying in front of witnesses all the other abuses that have occurred by Templars, he doesn't. So if anyone is shirking their duties it is Orsino because Elthina would rely on him to report them to her. If Meredith had been preventing him, then that would have been a great opportunity. So far as Elthina is concerned, Meredith is confining the mages to the Gallows, which is the same as any other Circle in Thedas. If the subject of confining them to cells arose, Meredith would no doubt say that the current situation required this sort of action. However, the very fact that Orsino wanted to go to Elthina at the end and Meredith was trying to prevent him, would suggest that the latter knew Elthina might well back Orsino on that particular issue because so far as I understand it, provided the mages are contained within the Circle, they are allowed autonomy to act and decide their own affairs and the Templars should only interfere if there is clear evidence that they are out of control.
When Meredith was appointed, she was considered the best candidate for the job but even Anders admits that she is sincere in carrying out her duties and there is no evidence that at the beginning she was acting beyond what was expected of her in monitoring the Circle. If you read the Orsino note at the end about the origins of his staff, it would appear that Kirkwall had always been regarded as a place where the more rebellious and difficult mages would be housed, sent there from the rest of Thedas. So naturally a strict Templar would be considered best for the role.

[Rifneno]

Oh good, we're back to "Elthina didn't know because Hawke didn't specifically see her being told exactly what's going on, in detail." We didn't see Isabela have sex either, so I guess she's a virgin.