110 réponses à ce sujet

[Melca36]

I think this screenshot says it all about the Chantry

[dragonflight288]

What Orsino was complaining about was Meredith painting all mages with the same brush...something many common and noble citizens throughout Thedas do. He calls her out on political abuse, which is common knowledge. If he reports the abuse of mages, Elthina would ask what proof does he have with him, and he would go "derp?"

We know it's happening. But can we prove Meredith is explicitly involved with it? I don't know if modern army mindsets of commanders responsible for their soldiers qualify in the medieval ages or in Thedas.

[dragonflight288]

sorry for the double post.

@Melca

Very nice picture. Certainly love it.

[maxernst]

Gervaise wrote...

The game does tend to put the Templars in a bad light because it would appear they know that Meredith is no longer acting by the code of their faith but only do something about it after the Rite of Anulment has been enacted.   

That's not entirely fair.  Thrask and a number of other Templars tried to do something before that, and ended up getting killed by Hawke.  Well, ok, Hawke didn't kill Thrask, but he did the others.

[EmperorSahlertz]

You could also take a pic of the Priestesses in the Chantry talking about helping the refugees then?

[dragonflight288]

Hawke doesn't have to kill Keran. He outright quit the templars in my game and became a mercenary because he couldn't work under Meredith anymore long before the chantry went boom.

[esper]

If the first enchanter is making a scene in front of the nobles saying that the Knight Commander is out of line and the nobles doens't kills him/chain him on the spot the Grand Cleric has to know that something is wrong, because no way that would happen if the circle was functioning.

One thing. If Elthina didn't know, Elthina is more stupid than it is legally allowed to be.

[Xilizhra]

So if anyone is shirking their duties it is Orsino because Elthina would rely on him to report them to her. If Meredith had been preventing him, then that would have been a great opportunity.

He didn't have a chance; Elthina shut him down and ordered the templars to drag him back to the Gallows before he could say much.

When Meredith was appointed, she was considered the best candidate for the job but even Anders admits that she is sincere in carrying out her duties and there is no evidence that at the beginning she was acting beyond what was expected of her in monitoring the Circle. If you read the Orsino note at the end about the origins of his staff, it would appear that Kirkwall had always been regarded as a place where the more rebellious and difficult mages would be housed, sent there from the rest of Thedas. So naturally a strict Templar would be considered best for the role.

Yes, because Elthina ignored Meredith's extremely traumatic background that would involve a personal grudge against apostate mages. Brilliant plan, that one.
Though I do have a personal theory about why that could be... I'm not sure I should repeat it here, though, as it might be sort of cheap.

[Wulfram]

If you're a templar supporter there is dialogue in which it is clear Elthina talks with both Orsino and Meredith. For example Meredith says that Orsino has persuaded the Grand Cleric that Meredith is being unreasonable about her claims of conspiracy.

[EmperorSahlertz]

She also went to talk to both Orsino and Meredith afterwards...

[GavrielKay]

Gervaise wrote...
If you read the Orsino note at the end about the origins of his staff, it would appear that Kirkwall had always been regarded as a place where the more rebellious and difficult mages would be housed, sent there from the rest of Thedas. So naturally a strict Templar would be considered best for the role.

Yet another example of the Chantry's stupidity or outright mean streak.  We know that something is seriously wrong with the veil in Kirkwall.  I find it hard to believe that with thousands of mages living in the Gallows over the years, no one would ever mention that it was a terrible place to be if you're sensitive to the Fade.  It is the last place any mage should be imprisoned, let alone those who were trouble to begin with.

And Meredith isn't just a strict Templar.  She's a paranoid zealot.  No one with her background (childhood trauma) should be put in a position of life or death authority over the very sorts of people who she was traumatized by in her youth.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I'm pretty sure that the true source of the magical problems in Kirkwall are not common knowledge.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 26 août 2011 - 12:02 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

The templars aren't exactly a noble, knightly order. In fact, the codexes state that the Chantry seeks out unwavering dedication and obiedience to its doctrine first, morality and ethics second. So even before DA2, the templars were an order that was, at least questionable in many regards. I never got the impression that were a nice, goodly, knightly order, but one filled with many shades of grey.

The same goes for the Chantry. Andraste did play a huge role in destroying the old Tevinter imperium and freeing alot of people. Yet the Chantry as we know it today is an organization that was formed on a political basis more than it was a spiritual/religous one. And there's much in the game that suggests the Chantry might not be completely true to Andraste's teachings.

The Chantry and templars certainly fulfill important roles many see as important or beneficial. Yet they also create as many problems as they claim to solve. So in the end, I feel neither love nor hate for templars or chantry on their own merits. I simply believe the Chantry is an outdated, backwards, and wholly incompetant institution that needs to be relieved of its political and institutional power, and should stick to platitudes and religous matters. Leave the important and critical tasks and roles to those who are comptentant and intelligent enough to properly manage them.

I won't go into my thoughts on how utterly ridiculous both mages and templars were portrayed in DA2, and how overboard they went on alot of things. That's another discussion.

But in DAO and DA2, I never found a Chantry mother or sister that I felt was remarkable or truly worth any respect or admiration. Most just seemed like dogmatic morons with little existing grip on reality.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Mages are the underdogs, they will always have popular support. The city Elves and the casteless Dwarves be damned.

Is this supposed to make sense? How does supporting rights for mages mean that people don't care about the plight of the dwarves or the elves? Some of us are arguing against a religious institution that uses religion to subjugate an entire group of people under its heel and preach that mages are cursed.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Mages are the underdogs, they will always have popular support. The city Elves and the casteless Dwarves be damned.

Is this supposed to make sense? How does supporting rights for mages mean that people don't care about the plight of the dwarves or the elves? Some of us are arguing against a religious institution that uses religion to subjugate an entire group of people under its heel and preach that mages are cursed.

Not to mention the Chantry is pretty much mostly responsible for the elve's current state, seeing how it was their exalted march on the Dales that  sent half the population into Alienages in the first place. Also, in the city elf origin, the Chantry mother conducting the service did little when Vaughn came in and kidnapped the elven women to use as disposable sex objects. I'm sure her reaction would have been different for a human wedding.

And lets not forget, speaking of exalted marches, what the Chantry did to the Rivanis who either converted to the Qun, or were unlucky enough to be in the way.

So its not just the mages the Chantry has managed to screw, oppress, or alienate. The mages are just the only ones doing anything about it, at the moment.

Modifié par Skadi_the_Evil_Elf, 26 août 2011 - 03:34 .

[ImoenBaby]

IanPolaris wrote...

As for the City Elves, I have near zero respect for them.  They choose to be subjegated and have a victim mentality (in this I think the Dalish have the City Elves pegged to a tee).  -Polaris

No one chooses to be subjugated. You sound like Morrigan!

[Xilizhra]

Leave the important and critical tasks and roles to those who are comptentant and intelligent enough to properly manage them.

That may take a while. I can count the number of competent politicians in Thedas we've seen on one hand.

[IanPolaris]

ImoenBaby wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

As for the City Elves, I have near zero respect for them.  They choose to be subjegated and have a victim mentality (in this I think the Dalish have the City Elves pegged to a tee).  -Polaris

No one chooses to be subjugated. You sound like Morrigan!

Actually people chose to be subjugated all the time.  See "Stockholm Syndrome" and "Slave mentality".  In this I happen to agree with Morrigan more than modern 'sensibilities'.

-Polaris

[CrimsonZephyr]

Xilizhra wrote...

Leave the important and critical tasks and roles to those who are comptentant and intelligent enough to properly manage them.

That may take a while. I can count the number of competent politicians in Thedas we've seen on one hand.

Arl Eamon, Bann Teagan, Seneschal Varel, Bryce Cousland, Queen Anora, and despite being kneecapped constantly by pretty much everyone, Viscount Dumar did pretty well with what little he had.

Yes, nearly all of those characters are Fereldan. Make of that what you will.

[TEWR]

I think Shartan knows that the Chantry betrayed the elves of the Dales. I think the Chantry or Orlais struck the first blow against the elves and caused them to retaliate, which resulted in someone wanting an Exalted March to be called.


It was my dream for the people to have a home of their own, where we would have no masters but ourselves. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, and thus we followed Andraste against the Imperium.

But she was betrayed, and so were we.

[TEWR]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Leave the important and critical tasks and roles to those who are comptentant and intelligent enough to properly manage them.

That may take a while. I can count the number of competent politicians in Thedas we've seen on one hand.

Arl Eamon, Bann Teagan, Seneschal Varel, Bryce Cousland, Queen Anora, and despite being kneecapped constantly by pretty much everyone, Viscount Dumar did pretty well with what little he had.

Yes, nearly all of those characters are Fereldan. Make of that what you will.

King Alistair too

[IanPolaris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Leave the important and critical tasks and roles to those who are comptentant and intelligent enough to properly manage them.

That may take a while. I can count the number of competent politicians in Thedas we've seen on one hand.

Arl Eamon, Bann Teagan, Seneschal Varel, Bryce Cousland, Queen Anora, and despite being kneecapped constantly by pretty much everyone, Viscount Dumar did pretty well with what little he had.

Yes, nearly all of those characters are Fereldan. Make of that what you will.

King Alistair too

Only if hardened.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I think Shartan knows that the Chantry betrayed the elves of the Dales. I think the Chantry or Orlais struck the first blow against the elves and caused them to retaliate, which resulted in someone wanting an Exalted March to be called.


It was my dream for the people to have a home of their own, where we would have no masters but ourselves. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, and thus we followed Andraste against the Imperium.

But she was betrayed, and so were we.

Assuming this is the 'reflection' of Shartan, the Disciple, and he is aware of what's happened over the past thousand odd years, then yes, I'd say this is strong circumstantial evidence that Orlais did cause the war with the Dales and thus did betray them.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

Only if hardened.

I would think that wouldn't matter anymore considering what he does in DAII. Though hardening him is best because it allows for him and Anora to rule the country together as great politicians and leaders. Eamon himself said that Alistair has many traits required of a king.

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I think Shartan knows that the Chantry betrayed the elves of the Dales. I think the Chantry or Orlais struck the first blow against the elves and caused them to retaliate, which resulted in someone wanting an Exalted March to be called.


It was my dream for the people to have a home of their own, where we would have no masters but ourselves. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, and thus we followed Andraste against the Imperium.

But she was betrayed, and so were we.

Assuming this is the 'reflection' of Shartan, the Disciple, and he is aware of what's happened over the past thousand odd years, then yes, I'd say this is strong circumstantial evidence that Orlais did cause the war with the Dales and thus did betray them.

-Polaris

Well, it would've been what happened a few centuries after they were given their land. IIRC, the elves had the Dales for 300 years before an Exalted March was called on them.

But I'm definitely going to take it as evidence that the war was caused by Orlais. The Guardian was able to know just what was happening in Haven over those long centuries, and Haven is a fairly large area.