110 réponses à ce sujet

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I suspect that's probably more of a reference to Andraste's betrayal by Maferath. Shartan perished when Andraste was captured.

[Urzon]

Arl Eamon, Bann Teagan, Seneschal Varel, Bryce Cousland, Queen Anora, and despite being kneecapped constantly by pretty much everyone, Viscount Dumar did pretty well with what little he had.

Yes, nearly all of those characters are Fereldan. Make of that what you will.

That we need to get out more storyline-wise. Other than the couple of politicians we seen in Kirkwall (Varel and Dumar), all we have seen are Ferelden politics. Plus when the Warden or Hawke runs into the politics of other countries, it usually ends with death of some kind.

I'm beginning to think that politics doesn't agree with them.

[ImoenBaby]

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...


As for the City Elves, I have near zero respect for them.  They choose to be subjegated and have a victim mentality (in this I think the Dalish have the City Elves pegged to a tee).  -Polaris[/quote]



No one chooses to be subjugated. You sound like Morrigan!
[/quote]

Actually people chose to be subjugated all the time.  See "Stockholm Syndrome" and "Slave mentality".  In this I happen to agree with Morrigan more than modern 'sensibilities'.

-Polaris[/quote]



Stockholm Syndrome is a psychological defence mechanism, not a "choice" in any meaningful sense of the word. Good god. Slave mentalities are the result of a lifetime of abuse, not a choice an individual makes for themselves. *Shakes head*

No one chooses to live a life of misery, humiliation, or dehumanization (such an awkward word in the context of Thedas). One is born into those circumstances, due to how their society is structured. I would venture that - knowing nothing else - many city elves or casteless dwarves come to believe awful things about themselves - or maybe just their world in general - and these things are reinforced by every facet of their existance, so they seem like insurmountable facts of life.

 
 

[IanPolaris]

City Elves CHOOSE to live in ghettos and CHOOSE to be downtrodden. To my knowledge in most places (certainly in Fereldan) there is no law that keeps them down. Mages have been downtrodden as long as elves have (longer in fact) as have Dwarven Casteless, but neither group has given up in the way the city elves have. I do blame them.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  Bottom line, as a culture City Elves seem to show no respect for themselves.  As Zevran rather aptly put it, they plant a tree to remember their culture and then urinate on it (but he used a different word than urinate).  That sums up City Elves to a tee.  If City Elves have no respect for themselves, then why should I?

Modifié par IanPolaris, 26 août 2011 - 06:37 .

[ImoenBaby]

IanPolaris wrote...

City Elves CHOOSE to live in ghettos and CHOOSE to be downtrodden. To my knowledge in most places (certainly in Fereldan) there is no law that keeps them down. Mages have been downtrodden as long as elves have (longer in fact) as have Dwarven Casteless, but neither group has given up in the way the city elves have. I do blame them.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  Bottom line, as a culture City Elves seem to show no respect for themselves.  As Zevran rather aptly put it, they plant a tree to remember their culture and then urinate on it (but he used a different word than urinate).  That sums up City Elves to a tee.  If City Elves have no respect for themselves, then why should I?

Really? You think city elves chose poverty and second-class status? You think they chose to be surrounded by an overwhelming hostile force and relegated to alienages? To be born in a ghetto with all the entailed disadvantages?

What should they do - rush the humans who outnumber and overpower them? Leave en masse, with all the useful knowledge that impoverished city life gave them, and demand a right of return with the Dalish? 

You speak as if the letter of the law determines one's standing in life.

I remember the City Elf origin in DA:O. Resistance was met with brutal punishment. You are scorning people who've been beaten into the ground, blaming them for colonization.

[IanPolaris]

No. I am scorning them for accepting it. The casteless have been subjegated much longer and far more brutally, but they still resist. Same with the mages.

-Polaris

Edit:  If a single guardsman died for every city-elf apprehended for carrying weapons (just as an example), the laws forbidding elves from carrying weapons would be quickly lifted, I promise you!

Modifié par IanPolaris, 26 août 2011 - 07:11 .

[IanPolaris]

[dp]

[ImoenBaby]

IanPolaris wrote...

No. I am scorning them for accepting it. The casteless have been subjegated much longer and far more brutally, but they still resist. Same with the mages.

-Polaris

Edit:  If a single guardsman died for every city-elf apprehended for carrying weapons (just as an example), the laws forbidding elves from carrying weapons would be quickly lifted, I promise you!

*Chuckle.*

Or the alienages would be razed to the ground.

While I'm happy the casteless resist...by joining criminal cartels that keep them in the same taboo, spit-upon section of society, or by trying to marrying up into more privilieged castes, you'll still note they never agreed to be casteless in the first place. They wore born there.

Mages never chose to be imprisoned in towers. True, some voluntariliy go with the Templars. I'm sure some even look forward to the education and safety of the Circle. But most know what will happen if they resist.

It's not really a choice, Polaris.

[IanPolaris]

The choice to resist is always there. Trying and failing is no moral failing. Not trying at all is. The City Elves don't even try.

-Polaris

Edit:  Even the most downtrodden people ALWAYS have a choice.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 26 août 2011 - 07:19 .

[ImoenBaby]

IanPolaris wrote...

The choice to resist is always there. Trying and failing is no moral failing. Not trying at all is. The City Elves don't even try.

-Polaris

Edit:  Even the most downtrodden people ALWAYS have a choice.

Trying and failing is a long death in the Arl of Denerim's keep. City elves have certainly resisted in individual cases - and what a powerful object lesson rape, torture, and murder is. Now take that relatively small number of elves in the alienage, and watch them try again, against a much larger city of humans.

They didn't choose these circumstances, and they didn't choose subjugation. What do you think choice means?

 How the city elves will rise up - assuming alienages don't integrate into a more equal standing in larger society, assuming they'll ever rise up at all, which I do - is interesting speculation, but not my point.

[IanPolaris]

ImoenBaby wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The choice to resist is always there. Trying and failing is no moral failing. Not trying at all is. The City Elves don't even try.

-Polaris

Edit:  Even the most downtrodden people ALWAYS have a choice.

Trying and failing is a long death in the Arl of Denerim's keep. City elves have certainly resisted in individual cases - and what a powerful object lesson rape, torture, and murder is. Now take that relatively small number of elves in the alienage, and watch them try again, against a much larger city of humans.

They didn't choose these circumstances, and they didn't choose subjugation. What do you think choice means?

 How the city elves will rise up - assuming alienages don't integrate into a more equal standing in larger society, assuming they'll ever rise up at all, which I do - is interesting speculation, but not my point.

There are many ways the City Elves could resist but don't.  They could teach the old gods in private.  They don't.  They could keep Elvish alive.  They don't.  They could use various forms of resistance including passive such as not paying taxes or paying taxes slowly.  They could go the Carta route.

There are many ways that the City Elves as a people could actively resist.  They chose as a people to roll over and die.  There is no other way to put it.  Zev has the City Elves pegged to a tee.  They plant a tree to remember their past and then urinate on it.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  It's worth noting that the SLAVES of Tevinter (who had it much worse) DID resist and didn't roll over and die, and eventually (at least for a short while) it paid off.  Those elves kept the ancient ways alive as much as possible and resisted where it was possible.  Those elves I have respect for.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 26 août 2011 - 07:36 .

[ImoenBaby]

IanPolaris wrote...

There are many ways the City Elves could resist but don't.  They could teach the old gods in private.  They don't.  They could keep Elvish alive.  They don't.  They could use various forms of resistance including passive such as not paying taxes or paying taxes slowly.  They could go the Carta route.

There are many ways that the City Elves as a people could actively resist.  They chose as a people to roll over and die.  There is no other way to put it.  Zev has the City Elves pegged to a tee.  They plant a tree to remember their past and then urinate on it.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  It's worth noting that the SLAVES of Tevinter (who had it much worse) DID resist and didn't roll over and die, and eventually (at least for a short while) it paid off.  Those elves kept the ancient ways alive as much as possible and resisted where it was possible.  Those elves I have respect for.

All sorts of people have it worse. Again, not my point.

This isn't about your respect, and I never once demanded that. This is about choice, which by definition is not about coercion, or circumstances of birth.  But now we've hijacked the thread. If you wish to continue, please PM me, where we can discuss tax revolts and other things THAT DON'T PERTAIN AT ALL.

[IanPolaris]

I will leave you with this thought then. No matter what, Morrigan is basically right. You ALWAYS have a choice. It might be a bad choice but it's still a choice. That's as much true for CIty Elves as it is for Casteless Dwarves as it is for Circle Mages. Casteless Dwarves and Circle mages have (to varying degrees) chosen to resist. The City Elves laid down and died.

-Polaris

[Gervaise]

There is a codex for City Elves where it is said that individuals and families have tried to improve their lot in life, made some money, bought themselves a better place, but before long are preyed on by humans and if not outright killed, end up worse off than they were before. From time to time Alienages may riot and the end result is a lot of dead and imprisoned elves. They will know the story of the Dales and how the humans came and wiped it out. Also may well know what happened to the original elven empire. Most of the slaves in Teviner are elves and Fenris says that from time to time there have been rebellions, which have always turned out badly. The lessons of history have taught them that those in power are stacked against them and the only option is to stick together and make the best of it they can. Plus many of them may have fundamental objections to doing what the carta dwarves and Zevran have done to get ahead - not everyone wants or is good at being a killer.

[Wulfram]

Morrigan also said that "first you must survive", which makes her derision towards those who choose to do that rather than throw their lives away rather hollow.

The Carta isn't a form of resistance. It's a way of preying on your fellow casteless. Jarvia briefly took advantage of the chaos of the succession to expand her operations, and ended up getting everyone slaughtered. If criminal operations count as resistance, then Athenril must be a revolutionary.

And, as Gervaise says, there are plenty of futile riots going on, which achieve nothing except getting the elves slaughtered. Many Kirkwall elves apparently ally with the Qunari, and get slaughtered. Lone humans who enter the Denerim alienage also seem to be at risk of a beating, not that this will do the elves any good.

As for keeping worship of the Old Gods alive, why? Andraste did more to free the elves than their absent gods ever did.

[Rifneno]

Wulfram wrote...

Morrigan also said that "first you must survive", which makes her derision towards those who choose to do that rather than throw their lives away rather hollow.

Morrigan is a hypocrite of epic proportions. If she existed in today's society, she'd have a political radio show. Everytime I refuse to deal with a demon and the hateful jackass who says dealing with demons is foolish gives negative approval, I want to slap the taste out of her mouth.

[naledgeborn]

The Fereldan Chantry isn't quite the same as the Empire's Chantry. I think they tend to give the mages more leeway. Finn was able to leave the tower without barely any protocol. Hell KC Gregoir could have locked up and interrogated all the mages that survived Uldred's uprising, but if Irving is alive he'll take his word that all is good. There's also the case of Wilhelm being allowed to put down roots in Honnleath and have a family. Granted he was a war hero. There is tension, but that's just mages being bitter about the bigger picture, I think the Fereldan Circle functions on the mission of hunting demons and protecting mages (from themselves if need be) first and foremost.

Kirkwall's circle is a prison. Period. Emile de Launcet was a 26 year old virgin. Mages are made tranquil even after successful Harrowings. There's no excuse for that type of treatment. Meredith wanted to rule with an iron fist. Where Ferelden's Circle is a gilded cage Kirkwall is a rusted cage.

I like the Chantry though - when it's not being fanatically judgmental against dwarves and kossith and oppressive of mages and elves. My Warden and Hawke (mage) were both Andrastian. Hawke just revolts against Meredith. It's not his fault thousands of mages across Thedas interpreted it the wrong way.

[LobselVith8]

@naledgeborn

Like you said, Wilhelm was a war hero who fought with the Rebel Queen Moira and Prince Maric the Saviour. It's likely he had a royal boon to be free given that he has a family, which is illegal for any Circle mage regardless of which Circle they are in (since the children of Circle mages are always taken away by the Chantry, the exception being Grey Warden mages).

The Warden can refer to the Circle as an oppressive place (if he's from the Circle of Ferelden) and Wynne doesn't disagree; she actually recommends that The Warden go back to the Circle as a leader to change its situation as an oppressive place (after Wynne's quest, since Aneririn advises her to have The Warden improve the Circle if he's a mage).

I hope a pro-mage Hawke has the opportunity to lead mages to gain autonomy from the Chantry (basically, to be proactive and intelligent instead of railroaded by plot into doing nothing).

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

IanPolaris wrote...

City Elves CHOOSE to live in ghettos and CHOOSE to be downtrodden. To my knowledge in most places (certainly in Fereldan) there is no law that keeps them down. Mages have been downtrodden as long as elves have (longer in fact) as have Dwarven Casteless, but neither group has given up in the way the city elves have. I do blame them.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  Bottom line, as a culture City Elves seem to show no respect for themselves.  As Zevran rather aptly put it, they plant a tree to remember their culture and then urinate on it (but he used a different word than urinate).  That sums up City Elves to a tee.  If City Elves have no respect for themselves, then why should I?

This is actually a very good point. It is also one of the biggest reasons I could never really get into playing the city elf origin. It is a strong culture of victimhood and submission, which I found little desire to RP. I look at the city elf origin story as an example. Vaughn and his scumbags come and forcibly abduct the women. Other than Shianni's ill fated attempt to defend herself, the city elves cower in fear and do not resist or communally jump the rapists. The only help the city elf really gets is from Soris, the female elf's groom (forget his name), and Duncan, a human. And do they get any praise or thanks from their kin for standing up to to a bunch of brutal rapists and murderers? No, they get b*tched at and shunned for taking a stand and refusing to take it lying down. And when the City elf returns much later to the Alienage, they get greeted with scorn and blame for the purge and lockdown of the alienage. Instead of, you know, maybe other city elves being inspired by their example, and starting to talk about staging more widespread resistance? or...something? Instead, they would rather cower like victims, allow themselves to be used and abused, and hope that by saying nothing, they will be permitted to continue existing in their squalid, substandard state.

That's why, for all their faults and problems, I respect the Dalish more. What happened in the city elf origin would have never happened in a Dalish camp. Vaughn wouldn;t have even got far enough to have a look at the Dalish women, because he'd be a shemlen pin cushion before he got past the checkpoint. The Dalish occasionally get harrassed, persecuted, even attacked by humans (not only templars, but human militias/villagers), but they do not take it lying down. And because of this, the lore states that alot of humans tend to be wary and even a little fearful of the Dalish, and more often than not, leave them be. Because they Dalish have made it perfectly clear that it can be bad for one's health if you bother them. The city elves? Not so. Everyone abuses them, because they never make it unhealthy for humans to do so.

What the city elves would need is a strong leader, level headed with solid plans to organize effective resistance and insurrection. Likely, they would have to find allies outside of the alienages and city elf culture for support as well. But from what I've seen of the city elves, such a leader is unlikely to rise from their ranks anytime soon.

Yes, I do believe the Chantry is to blame at least in part for the situation, from the destruction of the Dales onward. But the city elves, but doing nothing to resist this, or change things despite most being Andrastians themselves, and entited at least to some respect and fellowship from human worshipers. They should demand this. They don't.

[Wulfram]

Do people have a go at Jews for their centuries of "victimhood and submission"?

The Dalish resist, very briefly, and then they run away, which is something the City Elves can't really do.  And they've got weapons.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

What the city elves would need is a strong leader, level headed with solid plans to organize effective resistance and insurrection. Likely, they would have to find allies outside of the alienages and city elf culture for support as well

And then, when it's learned that they've been conspiring against humanity they all get massacred!   Hooray!!

[Rifneno]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

This is actually a very good point. It is also one of the biggest reasons I could never really get into playing the city elf origin. It is a strong culture of victimhood and submission, which I found little desire to RP.

I believe this post sums it up well actually: City Elf is the most badass origin.

[Harid]

Rifneno wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

This is actually a very good point. It is also one of the biggest reasons I could never really get into playing the city elf origin. It is a strong culture of victimhood and submission, which I found little desire to RP.

I believe this post sums it up well actually: City Elf is the most badass origin.

Yeah, city elf was one of the better origins in the game.  I have no idea what that person is going on about.

Besides, this is a Bioware game.  It's not like people treat you like they would treat a city elf post Origin quest anyway.

Modifié par Harid, 26 août 2011 - 01:06 .

[Xilizhra]

Yes... I like being a mage in Dragon Age games, but storywise I feel that a City Elf is the best. Too bad there's no recognition of your choices in DA2... or anything to do with city elves, for that matter.

[LadyJaneGrey]

naledgeborn wrote...

*snip*

Kirkwall's circle is a prison. Period. Emile de Launcet was a 26 year old virgin. Mages are made tranquil even after successful Harrowings. There's no excuse for that type of treatment. Meredith wanted to rule with an iron fist. Where Ferelden's Circle is a gilded cage Kirkwall is a rusted cage.
*snip*

I love that this is the first example: truly, a terrible sign of mage oppression. 

[naledgeborn]

LadyJaneGrey wrote...
I love that this is the first example: truly, a terrible sign of mage oppression. 

 Think about it though. You have mages getting branded as Maleficar for wanting to get laid. That's just wrong.