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The Chantry: A Love/Hate relationship


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#76
Harid

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LadyJaneGrey wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

*snip*

Kirkwall's circle is a prison. Period. Emile de Launcet was a 26 year old virgin. Mages are made tranquil even after successful Harrowings. There's no excuse for that type of treatment. Meredith wanted to rule with an iron fist. Where Ferelden's Circle is a gilded cage Kirkwall is a rusted cage.
*snip*


I love that this is the first example: truly, a terrible sign of mage oppression.  :D


Given what Wynne stated, maybe he just doesn't have game?  Stealing circle children seems to be where the circle gets most of it's Chantry priests from, and we had no indication Meredith locked down the Gallows from having sex given what was told to us in game.

There are probably 26 year old virgins on this board.  Oh the oppression.

Modifié par Harid, 26 août 2011 - 01:31 .


#77
Rifneno

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Xilizhra wrote...

Yes... I like being a mage in Dragon Age games, but storywise I feel that a City Elf is the best. Too bad there's no recognition of your choices in DA2... or anything to do with city elves, for that matter.


Aye. My only gripe with City Elf is that they can't be a mage. I don't mean for story reasons, I mean strictly gameplay. Non-mage PC forces me to have either Wynne or Morrigan around. One of them complains if you don't set a box of kittens on fire for warmth every hour, and the other never stops preaching. No matter what. Even if you're a frickin' saint, the abomination will never shut the hell up about how you need to do good. I want to invoke a RoA on my own party in DAO.

LadyJaneGrey wrote...

I love that this is the first example: truly, a terrible sign of mage oppression. :D


Well really... isn't it? It goes deeper than just sex, though celibacy alone borders on psychological torment when it's forced upon someone (or "strongly encouraged") rather than a choice they made for themselves. It's part of the bigger problem of mages not being allowed or being "strongly discouraged" from relationships. The ability to share a life with someone you love and if capable and desiring to, raise children, is one of the most important and basic human rights conceivable. Even the most oppressed and abused civilizations almost always have that. I was always just shocked to see people saying they didn't think the mages' plight was worth fighting for. If family and love isn't worth it... what the **** IS?!

< cue Chantry supporter pointing to Wilhelm >

#78
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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Wulfram wrote...

Do people have a go at Jews for their centuries of "victimhood and submission"?

 

There were several periods in history where countries did not oppress or marginalize Jews, but allowed them to co-exist peacefully and allowed them opportunities to have a decent life. Not all countries/cultures oppressed and exterminated the Jews or hated them. And the Jews made the fullest use of the opportunities given to them.

There were a number of cultures/civilizations in history where Jews were welcomed. So the oppresion was not universal, nor was it constant. Thus, it is not a valid comparison to the city elves, who have been universally relegated to poverty, reduced to servitude, for hundreds of years with no change. They have every reason to fight, because they have little to lose.

When the oppresion/violence occured with Jews, it was more often than not due to religous fanatics or extreme racists. The more stable, level headed leaders of many nations generally tolerated them. In Thedas, even the more "level-headed" leaders of nations still keep elves under the boot.

So far, I've seen nothing of the city elves that suggests they are content to do much of anything but take it lying down. Or, more idiotically, convert to the Qun.

The Dalish resist, very briefly, and then they run away, which is something the City Elves can't really do.  And they've got weapons.



Nothing wrong with hit and run. The key word here is hit. The Dalish are nomadic anyways. There is nothing wrong with running. The point is, the Dalish do not allow themselves to be utilized and abused like the city elves. When it happens, there are consequences. Which is why people are less keen on bothering them, and prefer to avoid, most of the time. City elves are almost universally seen as easy prey.

The city elves can have weapons too. You know, improvised weapons have been pretty much standard in ghettos and slums since, well, ghettos and slums began. As well as prisons. Not as great or as effective as properly crafted weapons, but the lore states that the elven slaves in Andraste's rebellion were using anything they could find to fight off their slavery, from pitchforks to shards of broken glass, whatever they could get their hands on.

And then, when it's learned that they've been conspiring against humanity they all get massacred!   Hooray!!



That arguement kinda falls flat if their allies are human agencies as well. Kinda hard to conspire against humanity if you are conspiring with humanity. The elves once conspired with humans to free themselves from Tevinter oppresion.

They get massacred anyway, even when they don't do anything. They get massacred when they have too many kids and the alienages become crowded. They get massacred if things go bad, and the humans need someone to take their frustrations out on. They are gonna get massacred no matter what they do.

So they may as well fight.

#79
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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Rifneno wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

This is actually a very good point. It is also one of the biggest reasons I could never really get into playing the city elf origin. It is a strong culture of victimhood and submission, which I found little desire to RP.


I believe this post sums it up well actually: City Elf is the most badass origin.



I disagree. The city elf themselves might be bolder and more a fighter than their kin. But the Origin itself? Meh. Didn't really feel like a bad ass at all. My definition of bad ass is more extensive than simple audacity.

Which is why the city elf origin is my least favorite, and one I've never been able to get past ostagar with, without getting bored and trying something else.

#80
Wulfram

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Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

That arguement kinda falls flat if their allies are human agencies as well. Kinda hard to conspire against humanity if you are conspiring with humanity. The elves once conspired with humans to free themselves from Tevinter oppresion.


So which humans are they supposed to ally with?  All humans treat elves much the same - well, actually it appears that Fereldan is a relatively good place for Elves to live, since they did in fact fight for it's independence from Orlais.

Perhaps some might be tempted to side with the rebel mages now that there are such thing, but that certainly would be regarded as conspiring against humanity.  And, win or lose, would result in the elves getting massacred.

Nothing wrong with hit and run. The key word here is hit. The Dalish are
nomadic anyways. There is nothing wrong with running. The point is, the
Dalish do not allow themselves to be utilized and abused like the city
elves. When it happens, there are consequences. Which is why people are
less keen on bothering them, and prefer to avoid, most of the time. City
elves are almost universally seen as easy prey.


Yes, there's nothing wrong with hit and run.  But that isn't an option for the city elves.  All they can do is hit and get hit back 10 time harder

The city elves can have weapons too. You know, improvised weapons have
been pretty much standard in ghettos and slums since, well, ghettos and
slums began. As well as prisons. Not as great or as effective as
properly crafted weapons, but the lore states that the elven slaves in
Andraste's rebellion were using anything they could find to fight off
their slavery, from pitchforks to shards of broken glass, whatever they
could get their hands on.


Fighting a dying empire allied with a powerful army is one thing.

Fighting without allies, with no training, no real weapons and heavily outnumbered is just stupid.

They get massacred anyway, even when they don't do anything. They get massacred when they have too many kids and the alienages become crowded. They get massacred if things go bad, and the humans need someone to take their frustrations out on. They are gonna get massacred no matter what they do.

So they may as well fight.


Mostly, they get massacred when they try to fight.  There are repeated references to riots, which is basically the only way they can resist, but they're entirely useless.  I would tend to assume that the purges are responses to unrest caused by declining conditions in the Alienage through over population, rather than the humans just deciding that there's too many elves around and killing them.

Whereas if you keep your head down, you can have a decent family life, maybe pick up a decent job - Nelaros, the city elf's intended husband was an apprentice smith, which is a pretty high status career really.

#81
jamesp81

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Well really... isn't it? It goes deeper than just sex, though celibacy
alone borders on psychological torment when it's forced upon someone (or
"strongly encouraged") rather than a choice they made for themselves.


This is a board populated by gamer geeks discussing a fantasy realm.  I suspect therefore, there's a lot of crazy people here.  Myself included:lol:

#82
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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Wulfram wrote...

So which humans are they supposed to ally with?  All humans treat elves much the same - well, actually it appears that Fereldan is a relatively good place for Elves to live, since they did in fact fight for it's independence from Orlais.

Perhaps some might be tempted to side with the rebel mages now that there are such thing, but that certainly would be regarded as conspiring against humanity.  And, win or lose, would result in the elves getting massacred.



Politics makes strange bedfellows. Allies can be found in the strangest places and times. I wasn't even thinking about the mages. It comes down to having a common enemy, and history as shown that even normal enemies can be persuaded temporarily cease hostilities and join to fight a common threat, or achieve a common, necessary goal.

Yes, there's nothing wrong with hit and run.  But that isn't an option for the city elves.  All they can do is hit and get hit back 10 time harder



Sure it is. They just need to be more careful about how they hit and when. And then get rid of the evidence so it can't be directly traced back to you.


Fighting a dying empire allied with a powerful army is one thing.

Fighting without allies, with no training, no real weapons and heavily outnumbered is just stupid.



Which is why I said they need leadership and allies. As far as weapons go, there are many ways and fronts on which people can wage warfare or conflict, and several of them do not involve direct physical confrontation and violence. Wars and rebellions are more than just about fighting of two armies. Economic warfare, social warfare, ect, would all be tools the elves could utilize if they had the right leadership and unity.



Mostly, they get massacred when they try to fight.  There are repeated references to riots, which is basically the only way they can resist, but they're entirely useless.  I would tend to assume that the purges are responses to unrest caused by declining conditions in the Alienage through over population, rather than the humans just deciding that there's too many elves around and killing them.



I'd say its more both, given the attitudes and comments of various humans in both games. Rioting happens because they have no leadership or focus to channel their anger and hopelessness into more constructive purposes. Instead, the riot and burn down their own neighborhoods, which is stupid, and will keep them in a perpetual state of poverty, not to mention destroy the fruits of their labors.

Whereas if you keep your head down, you can have a decent family life, maybe pick up a decent job - Nelaros, the city elf's intended husband was an apprentice smith, which is a pretty high status career really.



A decent family life and a decent job? Surely you jest. Elves can't get much beyond menial, servile labor, and that's about all they can hope for their kids in the current climate. It's like saying a Mexican immigrant, if he keeps his head down, can get a decent life picking tomatoes for 5 bucks a day. Sure, back in Mexico, 5 bucks a day might be alot. However, it is not a job or situation one would be content to inflict on their kids. One of the most important things for a people's cultural and social well being, is having hope for a better future, if not for themselves, but their kids. A mexican immigrant might be willing to take a job picking tomatoes, but he or she can do so in the hopes that their kids will go to school and have a better life than them. That's the universal hope of almost any parent, and I don't see how elves would be any different. Yet in keeping their heads down and accepting a "good" job, they sure as hell are doing nothing for their kids future.

And since I mentioned Mexican people, there's an example of a people, who were once relgated to crappy, menial jobs and servitude, often shoved into smaller communities away from the mainstream. Often, they were harrassed and treated like garbage. Yet eventually, the Mexicans decided they were every bit as entitled to the same things everyone else had,, and that their children should have the opportunity for more than just a life of farm labor. They had Ceasar Chavez, a strong leader who united them, and forced the issue. And they didn't even go about it with guns or open warfare (though there were violent, radical elements in the movement). They aggressively attacked through social and political warfare, and there were many who were jailed, harrassed, or otherwise persecuted for "stepping out of their place". But that just strengthened resistance, and ended up helping the movement more than anything. And they succeeded. Though many Mexican immigrants still work labor jobs, that is no longer all they can ever expect to work. Now, they at least have opportunities for themselves and their children that would not have existed if they quietly took the shyte that was being dished out on them. They refused to remain oppressed victims.

The city elves, if not for themselves, should rise up for their kids. Like I said, uprisings don't always have to involve physical warfare of violence. There are many ways to resist.

#83
Wulfram

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Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Politics makes strange bedfellows. Allies can be found in the strangest places and times. I wasn't even thinking about the mages. It comes down to having a common enemy, and history as shown that even normal enemies can be persuaded temporarily cease hostilities and join to fight a common threat, or achieve a common, necessary goal.


Firstly, why would anyone want to be allies with a scattered minority of unarmed civilians?  Secondly, their enemy is pretty much humanity as a whole.

Sure it is. They just need to be more careful about how they hit and when. And then get rid of the evidence so it can't be directly traced back to you.


If it can't be directly traced back to you, then they'll just slaughter elves indiscriminately.  See the CE origin, for example.  If it can't be traced back to the elves at all, well you're not going to get much of an intimidating reputation if no one knows what you're doing.

Not that we don't have examples of elves fighting back against particular targets.

Which is why I said they need leadership and allies. As far as weapons go, there are many ways and fronts on which people can wage warfare or conflict, and several of them do not involve direct physical confrontation and violence. Wars and rebellions are more than just about fighting of two armies. Economic warfare, social warfare, ect, would all be tools the elves could utilize if they had the right leadership and unity.


Yes!  They could strike from their crap jobs, and all starve to death.  Hooray!

A decent family life and a decent job? Surely you jest. Elves can't get much beyond menial, servile labor, and that's about all they can hope for their kids in the current climate.


As I said, Nelaros is an apprentice smith - one who is able to scrounge up at least a bit of gold for a wedding ring too.  In DA2, Lia potentially becomes a Guard, and her father is an - apparently fairly well off - merchant

The city elves, if not for themselves, should rise up for their kids. Like I said, uprisings don't always have to involve physical warfare of violence. There are many ways to resist.


Their kids will certainly be better off with dead parents, destroyed homes, being more widely reviled and more thoroughly oppressed.  Which is what they might achive if they really got organised.

#84
dragonflight288

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Let me bring up the Human Noble origin. Your mother's friend brings along an elvish servant. If the male cousland flirts with her, she quickly states she doesn't want to give her child hope of anything happening because she is a servant. As a servant, that's the best an elf can be. She didn't want her child getting false ideas than an elf can be anything better.

....Seems to me city elves don't even bother looking for ways to improve their lot in life. One or two may, but the culture of the city elves does not.

#85
IanPolaris

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[quote]Wulfram wrote...

[quote]Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Politics makes strange bedfellows. Allies can be found in the strangest places and times. I wasn't even thinking about the mages. It comes down to having a common enemy, and history as shown that even normal enemies can be persuaded temporarily cease hostilities and join to fight a common threat, or achieve a common, necessary goal.[/quote]

Firstly, why would anyone want to be allies with a scattered minority of unarmed civilians?  Secondly, their enemy is pretty much humanity as a whole.
[/quote]

To answer the first point: Intelligence just for starters.  Elves are so looked down on that people (esp Orlesian nobles) view them like furniture and say things around their elven servants they probably shouldn't.  Also no one knows the city backstreets and ghettos like the city elves.

To answer the second point, there ARE humans who sympathize with the elves, and there are always political/social movements that need muscle.  Andraste didn't turn up her nose at the help of Elven Slaves of Tevinter who were worse off and had even less to offer.  I doubt future human movement leaders would either.

[quote]


[quote]Sure it is. They just need to be more careful about how they hit and when. And then get rid of the evidence so it can't be directly traced back to you.[/quote]
If it can't be directly traced back to you, then they'll just slaughter elves indiscriminately.  See the CE origin, for example.  If it can't be traced back to the elves at all, well you're not going to get much of an intimidating reputation if no one knows what you're doing.
[/quote]

Can't do that for long before you don't have an underclass.  What if ALL the ghettos rise up because of such treatment in one ghetto.  Suddenly razing alienages doesn't seem like such an attractive proposition now does it?


[quote]
Not that we don't have examples of elves fighting back against particular targets.
[/quote]

Yes, but they are singular examples by singular exceptional elves who are then SHUNNED by their entire community.  The Elven Servant in the Human Origin says, "She doesn't want her daughter to aspire to anything better".  That's a sick culture and IMO one that doesn't deserve much respect.

[quote]


[quote]Which is why I said they need leadership and allies. As far as weapons go, there are many ways and fronts on which people can wage warfare or conflict, and several of them do not involve direct physical confrontation and violence. Wars and rebellions are more than just about fighting of two armies. Economic warfare, social warfare, ect, would all be tools the elves could utilize if they had the right leadership and unity.[/quote]

Yes!  They could strike from their crap jobs, and all starve to death.  Hooray!
[/quote]

Yes.  It works throughout human history.  When an underclass proves it can't be ignored and shows it won't take being 'put down' without unacceptable costs by the controlling elements of society, that underclass gets more rights.  Always.


[quote]

[quote]A decent family life and a decent job? Surely you jest. Elves can't get much beyond menial, servile labor, and that's about all they can hope for their kids in the current climate. [/quote]
As I said, Nelaros is an apprentice smith - one who is able to scrounge up at least a bit of gold for a wedding ring too.  In DA2, Lia potentially becomes a Guard, and her father is an - apparently fairly well off - merchant
[/quote]

And does either do anything to encourage the other Elves to rise up and better themselves (not necessarily by VIOLENT resistance just resistance)?  No.  Her father in fact complains about all the injustices suffered by elves but does nothing about it.

[quote]
[quote]The city elves, if not for themselves, should rise up for their kids. Like I said, uprisings don't always have to involve physical warfare of violence. There are many ways to resist.
[/quote]

Their kids will certainly be better off with dead parents, destroyed homes, being more widely reviled and more thoroughly oppressed.  Which is what they might achive if they really got organised.
[/quote]

Actually they will in the long term esp if those kids grow up knowing that their parent fought and died for their future and for something worth having.

-Polaris

#86
IanPolaris

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dragonflight288 wrote...

Let me bring up the Human Noble origin. Your mother's friend brings along an elvish servant. If the male cousland flirts with her, she quickly states she doesn't want to give her child hope of anything happening because she is a servant. As a servant, that's the best an elf can be. She didn't want her child getting false ideas than an elf can be anything better.

....Seems to me city elves don't even bother looking for ways to improve their lot in life. One or two may, but the culture of the city elves does not.


Exactly my complaint and cause for contempt of the City Elf culture.  To try and to fail especially given unequal odds, is one thing.  To not try at all and simply give up is quite another.

-Polaris

#87
Rifneno

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dragonflight288 wrote...

Let me bring up the Human Noble origin. Your mother's friend brings along an elvish servant. If the male cousland flirts with her, she quickly states she doesn't want to give her child hope of anything happening because she is a servant. As a servant, that's the best an elf can be. She didn't want her child getting false ideas than an elf can be anything better.

....Seems to me city elves don't even bother looking for ways to improve their lot in life. One or two may, but the culture of the city elves does not.


I'm still annoyed you can't do anything for her daughter in the Denerim alienage.  Bah.  Anyway, from the wiki, "Though overall treatment varies kingdom to kingdom, city elves are universally held as second-class citizens. Elves are unable to join most legal organizations like the Chantry, and the law often shows a blind eye to their woes."

Yes, there are a few cases of elves making out decent, but that hardly means it's the norm.  The shortest guy to ever play in the NBA was 5'3" but I wouldn't recommend a basketball career to a friend that's 5'5".  When the best examples we get of an elf "making it" are an apprentice smith and a guardsman, that's not saying much.  Even casteless dwarves, whom I'd say have it worse than any other ethnic or cultural group, have been made paragons before.

#88
Sylvianus

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Wulfram wrote...
1- The Carta isn't a form of resistance. It's a way of preying on your fellow casteless. Jarvia briefly took advantage of the chaos of the succession to expand her operations, and ended up getting everyone slaughtered. If criminal operations count as resistance, then Athenril must be a revolutionary.

2- And, as Gervaise says, there are plenty of futile riots going on, which achieve nothing except getting the elves slaughtered. Many Kirkwall elves apparently ally with the Qunari, and get slaughtered. Lone humans who enter the Denerim alienage also seem to be at risk of a beating, not that this will do the elves any good.

As for keeping worship of the Old Gods alive, why? Andraste did more to free the elves than their absent gods ever did.

1- Agreed.

2- Agreed.

But nobody forced the elves to help humans to kill the Dalish, to consider them like thief. That's probably true, but the misunderstanding is a major weakness. They are alone now.. If they do not understand that they must unite between all the elves, to create their own destiny, they will never go away.

Their fate isn't forced to stand against humans, but independently of them. And Ian is right, they chose to live among humans, no one forced them. After Slavery was done, they were free.  It was simply inevitable to see their acceptance of human domination and their wretched condition in their city after so many years of slavery. So they decided to make their lives there. Also, city elves are cowards, they fear the life of wandering, and that of Dalish.

They prefer a normal life, though difficult under the aegis of humans, hoping that their living conditions will improve with leaders warmer and time.

What they forget is that humans don't often change thoughts, without being rushed and blasted. It is clear that the riots from time to time, bursting because of emotion have no effect ( example the murder of one of them ). The human leaders say oh they are "  in bad mood, it will pass in some days, with a few strokes. "

It should be something that lasts over time, they need to run a clear political message behind which all elves are identified and all humans can understand. The common human people suffered the same as the elves, a hard life, they can share many of their ideals if they bother to try to launch their propaganda among them. Not easy but if mages can have the support of people, elves too.

Otherwise I do not agree with Ian. city Elves alone can't do nothing now against humans, they are totally denuded. They need weapons, many weapons and support among humans to divide them. They need power, they need the Dalish outside, while they plot inside. Only, they will be slaughtered. They need to organize themselves for generations, to build something decent. Political structure and discrete like the dalish.

Bringing them together in one place, I believe that humans have made ​​a mistake. This prevents to  assimilate the elves in their society.

Together, they will be quicker to recognize their misery and injustice that is theirs.

There are also already elves desperate, who have joined the Qun. I consider it positively. Humans willunderstand that the elves can become dangerous enemies if they do not earn their support in their own city face to a probable war against Qunari.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 26 août 2011 - 04:41 .


#89
Wulfram

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IanPolaris wrote...

To answer the first point: Intelligence just for starters.  Elves are so looked down on that people (esp Orlesian nobles) view them like furniture and say things around their elven servants they probably shouldn't.  Also no one knows the city backstreets and ghettos like the city elves.


You can get this by bribing a few elves.  No reason to alienate serious allies by offering concessions to the elves as a whole for such small reward

To answer the second point, there ARE humans who sympathize with the elves, and there are always political/social movements that need muscle.  Andraste didn't turn up her nose at the help of Elven Slaves of Tevinter who were worse off and had even less to offer.  I doubt future human movement leaders would either.


The Elves of Tevinter were probably more numerous, almost certainly more concentrated.  And they were in a hated and collapsing empire.  It's not in any way comparable.

Can't do that for long before you don't have an underclass.  What if ALL the ghettos rise up because of such treatment in one ghetto.  Suddenly razing alienages doesn't seem like such an attractive proposition now does it?


Then you kill all those who rebel, enslave those who are left over.  Simple.

Yes, but they are singular examples by singular exceptional elves who are then SHUNNED by their entire community.  The Elven Servant in the Human Origin says, "She doesn't want her daughter to aspire to anything better".  That's a sick culture and IMO one that doesn't deserve much respect.


Shunned is an overstatement.  They acted with the support and help of the community leader.  And there's the elves who killed the rapist guard in DA2 too.

Yes.  It works throughout human history.  When an underclass proves it can't be ignored and shows it won't take being 'put down' without unacceptable costs by the controlling elements of society, that underclass gets more rights.  Always.


That's just rubbish.  Most of the time, they get put down easily and their oppression continues.


And does either do anything to encourage the other Elves to rise up and better themselves (not necessarily by VIOLENT resistance just resistance)?  No.  Her father in fact complains about all the injustices suffered by elves but does nothing about it.


We meet them for a couple of minutes, so I'm not sure what you're expecting them to do.

Just being an elven city guard would be of considerable use to the community - it gives them someone to go to who they can trust.  If Lia had been in the guard for Act 2, the events which sparked off the Qunari attack might never have happened

Actually they will in the long term esp if those kids grow up knowing that their parent fought and died for their future and for something worth having.


Firstly, the kids are probably dead, either directly or through starvation. Secondly, what they'll learn is the futility of fighting back.

Modifié par Wulfram, 26 août 2011 - 04:18 .


#90
TEWR

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Rifneno wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

This is actually a very good point. It is also one of the biggest reasons I could never really get into playing the city elf origin. It is a strong culture of victimhood and submission, which I found little desire to RP.


I believe this post sums it up well actually: City Elf is the most badass origin.



Lies! The Dwarf Noble origin is the most badass origin!


EDIT: regarding city elves, during the Orlesian occupation the Orlesians took Fereldan's elves and sold them like cattle, thinking them little more than property.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 26 août 2011 - 04:51 .


#91
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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Wulfram wrote...


Then you kill all those who rebel, enslave those who are left over.  Simple.



Lol, you're serious, aren't you? Even with the systematic extermination machine of Third Reich death camps and mass executions, the Na zis only increased their resistance, and ended up making more enemies everywhere. Thedas doesn't even possess that level of efficiency and order to successfully pull off a total extermination of the elves. Especially not with high casualties and bringing more unrest and strife in their own backyards.



That's just rubbish.  Most of the time, they get put down easily and their oppression continues.



Tell that to the numerous communist and socialist revolutions that were widespread over the 20th century. And more often than not, succeeded. Even where they didn't succeed, in western, more capitalist societies, unions, worker strikes, and other forms of rebellion ended up forcing the elites to make consessions, instill labor laws, pay increases, ect. And while these scenarios are not identical to those of the city elves, the principle is the same. Unified with leadership and a common goal, an underclass can successfully revolt against its oppressors.


Firstly, the kids are probably dead, either directly or through starvation. Secondly, what they'll learn is the futility of fighting back.



Unlikely, What they will likely end up  with is even more hatred and grudge against humans, and after seeing the limited choices they have, will probably have even more incentive to act up. Not would every single adult be dead, or every kid be dead, because a total extermination or purge is unlikely.

#92
Harid

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

This is actually a very good point. It is also one of the biggest reasons I could never really get into playing the city elf origin. It is a strong culture of victimhood and submission, which I found little desire to RP.


I believe this post sums it up well actually: City Elf is the most badass origin.



Lies! The Dwarf Noble origin is the most badass origin!


EDIT: regarding city elves, during the Orlesian occupation the Orlesians took Fereldan's elves and sold them like cattle, thinking them little more than property.


Yes, it's so bad ass being suckered by Bhelen and dumped into the deep roads, despite manipulation and kinslaying being a large part of Dwarven culture.

Ugh.

#93
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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Harid wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

This is actually a very good point. It is also one of the biggest reasons I could never really get into playing the city elf origin. It is a strong culture of victimhood and submission, which I found little desire to RP.


I believe this post sums it up well actually: City Elf is the most badass origin.



Lies! The Dwarf Noble origin is the most badass origin!


EDIT: regarding city elves, during the Orlesian occupation the Orlesians took Fereldan's elves and sold them like cattle, thinking them little more than property.


Yes, it's so bad ass being suckered by Bhelen and dumped into the deep roads, despite manipulation and kinslaying being a large part of Dwarven culture.

Ugh.



Being a blood relative, a sibling of Bhelen, alone is enough to qualify as being the most bad assed, just by existing. :devil:B)

#94
Wulfram

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Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Lol, you're serious, aren't you? Even with the systematic extermination machine of Third Reich death camps and mass executions, the Na zis only increased their resistance, and ended up making more enemies everywhere. Thedas doesn't even possess that level of efficiency and order to successfully pull off a total extermination of the elves. Especially not with high casualties and bringing more unrest and strife in their own backyards.


What high casuaties?  We're talking about unarmed untrained civilians who are already mostly conveniently rounded up.  And unless the Elves are suffering from the same mind control which turns Merrill's clan into lemmings, you don't need to kill all of them.  Just those who resist.  Which after the rebellion has been crushed with obvious ease, would not be very many.

And the Germans in WW2 were defeated by outside powers.  For the Elves, that means Tevinter and the Qunari who aren't great candidates for liberation.

Tell that to the numerous communist and socialist revolutions that were widespread over the 20th century. And more often than not, succeeded. Even where they didn't succeed, in western, more capitalist societies, unions, worker strikes, and other forms of rebellion ended up forcing the elites to make consessions, instill labor laws, pay increases, ect. And while these scenarios are not identical to those of the city elves, the principle is the same. Unified with leadership and a common goal, an underclass can successfully revolt against its oppressors.


Successful socialist and communist revolutions weren't led or carried out by the "underclass"

Unlikely, What they will likely end up  with is even more hatred and grudge against humans, and after seeing the limited choices they have, will probably have even more incentive to act up. Not would every single adult be dead, or every kid be dead, because a total extermination or purge is unlikely.


I think the elves have got plenty of hatred and grudge against humans.  And their current state is the consequence of centuries of failed striving to better themselves.

#95
TEWR

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Harid wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

This is actually a very good point. It is also one of the biggest reasons I could never really get into playing the city elf origin. It is a strong culture of victimhood and submission, which I found little desire to RP.


I believe this post sums it up well actually: City Elf is the most badass origin.



Lies! The Dwarf Noble origin is the most badass origin!


EDIT: regarding city elves, during the Orlesian occupation the Orlesians took Fereldan's elves and sold them like cattle, thinking them little more than property.


Yes, it's so bad ass being suckered by Bhelen and dumped into the deep roads, despite manipulation and kinslaying being a large part of Dwarven culture.

Ugh.



Well, I always knew Bhelen was up to something. The game however wouldn't let me act on it, nor would it let me become king of the short, hairy, cave-dwelling people when I returned.

Still, it's the most badass origin for me.

#96
Torax

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It's funny that in the end the City Elves are still better off than the Cast-less dwarves in dust town. The only jobs they can have are criminal at best and are even branded to further be a reminder to themselves and all around them that they are worthless and always will be. There is no Elder to speak for them. Having children means you'll starve even more unless you're willing to kill others around you for their food.

The most dangerous place for a dwarf to be is in Orzimmar it'self. Dust Town is the worst for it. A crap job is better than not being allowed one at all just because of your same sex parent. Where you're branded like Cattle just so they can remember how worthless they think you are.

#97
dragonflight288

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Top two origin stories for me are the Dwarf Noble and the magi. Dwarven noble because of the many political paths a single player can take before even ending up in the deep roads, and an excuse to say "Alistair, everyone is out for themselves. Family blood-bonds don't always mean much" in all honesty.

And the magi, well, who doesn't like throwing lightening at fools?

#98
TEWR

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Torax wrote...

It's funny that in the end the City Elves are still better off than the Cast-less dwarves in dust town. The only jobs they can have are criminal at best and are even branded to further be a reminder to themselves and all around them that they are worthless and always will be. There is no Elder to speak for them. Having children means you'll starve even more unless you're willing to kill others around you for their food.

The most dangerous place for a dwarf to be is in Orzimmar it'self. Dust Town is the worst for it. A crap job is better than not being allowed one at all just because of your same sex parent. Where you're branded like Cattle just so they can remember how worthless they think you are.



Some people in Orzammar hired casteless Dwarves for other things. Bodahn asked them to forage the Deep Roads looking for anything valuable, and Sigrun was hired by a merchant woman before Beraht forced her to steal something. And as we all know, noble hunters are looked on with happiness.

But for the most part, most Dwarves turn to crime because they have no other options. Which sucks, because then the Dwarves go "So you're a criminal! I knew it!". They feel like they've been proven right, when really they haven't.

The sins of the father should not carry on to the son. The father's blood may flow through the son's veins, but they aren't the same person.

Xanthos Aeducan said something similar to that in my fanfic Image IPB

#99
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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dragonflight288 wrote...

Top two origin stories for me are the Dwarf Noble and the magi. Dwarven noble because of the many political paths a single player can take before even ending up in the deep roads, and an excuse to say "Alistair, everyone is out for themselves. Family blood-bonds don't always mean much" in all honesty.

And the magi, well, who doesn't like throwing lightening at fools?



Agreed on both points. Mage and dwarf noble were my favorite Origins. The dwarf noble was just awesome in all it's wicked intrigue, backstabbing, and general atmosphere of shamelessly slimey politics. And damnit, I loved every minute of it. It's rare in a game that one can truly play a maginificent mastard, and feel so damned sexy doing it.

And the mage Origin. Three words: Senior Enchanter Sweeny. Lol, I loved the senile old git, freezy chair and all. And even better, when you need someone to sign your fire rod request form, he'll do it if you promise to set fire some templar's pants for the lulz.

I often wonder what happened to him, with the broken Circle quest. I hope he just accidentally wandered off somewhere safe, and the abominations and blood mages simply forgot he was there.

#100
Torax

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Though off topic. I kind of like all of the origins in their own rights. Though I do think the Magi origin feels long only because the best part is at the start and then it's a bunch of sneaking around either for Irving or for Jowan.

The Gladiator'esque "Remove your helmet" for the Dwarf Commoner is good.

The Noble line I think is sort of cool though I would have liked to seen the trial personally. Considering the time it takes for the trial before you're in the deep roads? I'd call bull for example of the the Wardens not hearing about it imo.

City Elf only works for me if you're a female for the scene with sword sliding between their legs into the hands of the angry female elf they were about to attempt to rape. "Oh crap".

Personally I like the Dalish in general and at least has fought darkspawn along with the Noble Dwarves.

Human Noble's pay off just takes too long to complete since it's that conversation you can invoke out of Howe about the fire in those eyes that has held his family back for generations. Tim Curry was great as the voice of Howe in Origins in my opinion.


Edited to add.

Fighting the Darkspawn cause you're forced to is just kind of meh and is the case for most of the wardens. Meanwhile I think of it for some as a revenge. The Dalish Elf will kill the Arch Demon and every other Darkspawn for the death of Tamlen. The revenge on Howe for the human noble may end there but at least it had a decent run to it. Most others culminate their entire main motivation before they even get to Ostigar. After that it's just "You gotta do it because you're a Warden." Granted you could use the subtext for Dwarf  Commoner and City Elves as a way to prove you're better than the society you came from thinks you are. With Magi it was basically "hey you get to leave the Tower. Don't pass this up..."

Modifié par Torax, 26 août 2011 - 05:41 .