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[Eudaemonium]

maxpowers2525 wrote...

i want to know how they get from the alpha relay to earth in just 6 months looking at the gm that looks like a huge space to travel even at ftl

It's taken them only 4 times that to get all the way from the depths of Dark Space to the edge of the galaxy, so it really isn't that much of a stretch. Dark space is pretty enormous.

[KevShep]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

There can be a gazillion reasons as to why the reapers started the war with the rachni but we know one thing for sure and that is that it had nothing to do with gaining access to the citadel nor the keepers. 

From: Chorban
I hope this address still works. I promised to send you intel on the keepers if I found anything, and this is important. See, those scans you took? It turns out the keepers are bio-engineered...and based on my comparisons to some of that material from Saren's flagship Soverign, they were engineered millions of years ago...by the same people who made Sovereign!

You may not understand how important this is, but it suggests that the Citadel wasn't really made by the Protheons! It may have been made by something Far older, with the keepers as organic guardians. And what's more, based on my genetic readings, they're supposed to react to...something, some signal or something...about every 50 thousand years. You can measure genetic variances; it's a bit like comparing rings on a tree to see the drought years.

Whoever did this...well, around the last time this signal went off would be around the time the Protheans disappeared. And it's scheduled to go off sometime around now. If any old tech still works, they could have some nasty surprises waiting for us.

Just thought you'd want to know. Nobody here on the Citadel will listen to me.

-Chorban


Around Now,,NOT 2000 years ago.

The rachni were killing off "every" race in the galaxy before the invasion. If the reapers are behind the rachni wars(and I think they are) then that means it does have everything to do with the reapers invasion. Notice that the reapers are only interested in humans...there not interested in the other races. This looks to be the same thing with the rachni.......The rachni are killing them all! 

[maxpowers2525]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

maxpowers2525 wrote...

i want to know how they get from the alpha relay to earth in just 6 months looking at the gm that looks like a huge space to travel even at ftl

Normal ships can travel like 4000 times the speed of light, so I imagine the Reapers can travel even faster than that.

I know but it seems i remeber somwhere it said that without the relays it would take years to travel even at ftl i know reapers are advanced but it seems that they rely heavly on the relays to and  it takes over 2 years from dark space to the alpha relay i thought the alpha relay was at the edge of the galaxy maybe i am wrong

[Candidate 88766]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

maxpowers2525 wrote...

i want to know how they get from the alpha relay to earth in just 6 months looking at the gm that looks like a huge space to travel even at ftl

Normal ships can travel like 4000 times the speed of light, so I imagine the Reapers can travel even faster than that.

As far as i know the only solid figure we have is 200 times C not 4000, But the statement stands nobody knows how fast the reapers FTL is.

I'll see if I can find how I got to that 4000x figure - I'm sure I read it somewhere.

Also, I think you're right that the Rachni Wars occurred before Sovereign contacted the Keepers - some species were only just reaching the Citadel, so civilization had yet to reach its apex. The War was probably instigated so Sovereign could assess which side was stronger, and how the Citadel species coped with galactic war.

Vigil tells us that Sovereign had to search for a couple of centuries in order to find out why the Keepers hadn't responded - this is also in keeping with what you say, because in the context of a 50,000 year gap between cycles a few hundred years is pretty negligible and Chorban's email saying the signal occurs 'around now' is pretty much correct. 

[maxpowers2525]

i Agree that me2 end cutscene gives the wrong ideal i thought they were just waking up 2

[Veovim]

I think the question here is what exactly did we accomplish in ME2?  Destroying the a new Reaper (if it is indeed just another Reaper) isn't especially significant if there are hundreds or thousands more of them.  Likewise, destroying the mechanism for making new Reapers isn't actually a big deal because the Reapers can just rebuild it once they've secured the galaxy (that seems to be their preferred strategy--secure the galaxy quickly, then take their time harvesting).

One of the key points from the other thread is that the galaxy/universe is a really big place, even relative to having FTL capacity.  The mass relays are key to getting around that limitation, and it was mentioned (back in ME1) that one of the reasons the Reapers take the citadel right away is to shut down the relay network, leaving their victims cut off from one another and unable to rally their fleets.  The advantage is huge, and effectively wins the war for the Reapers immediately.  That, in my opinion, is why it makes sense for the Human Reaper to have been another vanguard--another attempt to seize that crucial advantage.  Sure, everyone had seen Sovereign, but pretty much no one but Shepard really believed it was anything more than a Geth ship; accordingly, the Collectors killed Shepard, ending the threat to their masters.  The citadel fleets might have been more wary of attacks, but the Reapers still had a massive fleet of Geth at their command (once the reprogramming virus was used; stopping the virus is one major thing you *might* have done in ME2), and they only had to win one battle to win the war.

Once the Reapers know that Shepard has been brought back to life, and they can no longer make a new vanguard remotely, then it makes sense for them to abandon their plans of using the citadel relay.  If the Reapers had already given up on that plan before losing the base, then what exactly was it that Harbinger said they would "find another way" to do?  Is there something else that we haven't seen at all, or was that just getting the lore confused (i.e. whoever wrote that line thought that the Reapers hadn't started travelling yet).

On a side note, when the Reapers actually arrive, why do they immediately start targeting planets instead of throwing everything at the citadel.  If all the Reapers went there together, could they not curbstomp the citadel fleet and shut down the relay network?  It looks like that's what they did to Earth instead, only they (seemingly?) get far less of an advantage out of it.  When the Alliance reclaimed the Normandy, did they immediately start mass manufacturing Reaper IFFs?  (i.e. if the Reapers don't actually shut down the relay network, but just make it unresponsive to any non-Reaper ships, widespread use of Reaper IFFs would negate the advantage)

[maxpowers2525]

just noticed he didnt really say that the human reaper wasnt a new vanguard just said it was a new reaper i dont think that rules out the vanguard replacement theory

[maxpowers2525]

Veovim wrote...

I think the question here is what exactly did we accomplish in ME2?  Destroying the a new Reaper (if it is indeed just another Reaper) isn't especially significant if there are hundreds or thousands more of them.  Likewise, destroying the mechanism for making new Reapers isn't actually a big deal because the Reapers can just rebuild it once they've secured the galaxy (that seems to be their preferred strategy--secure the galaxy quickly, then take their time harvesting).

One of the key points from the other thread is that the galaxy/universe is a really big place, even relative to having FTL capacity.  The mass relays are key to getting around that limitation, and it was mentioned (back in ME1) that one of the reasons the Reapers take the citadel right away is to shut down the relay network, leaving their victims cut off from one another and unable to rally their fleets.  The advantage is huge, and effectively wins the war for the Reapers immediately.  That, in my opinion, is why it makes sense for the Human Reaper to have been another vanguard--another attempt to seize that crucial advantage.  Sure, everyone had seen Sovereign, but pretty much no one but Shepard really believed it was anything more than a Geth ship; accordingly, the Collectors killed Shepard, ending the threat to their masters.  The citadel fleets might have been more wary of attacks, but the Reapers still had a massive fleet of Geth at their command (once the reprogramming virus was used; stopping the virus is one major thing you *might* have done in ME2), and they only had to win one battle to win the war.

Once the Reapers know that Shepard has been brought back to life, and they can no longer make a new vanguard remotely, then it makes sense for them to abandon their plans of using the citadel relay.  If the Reapers had already given up on that plan before losing the base, then what exactly was it that Harbinger said they would "find another way" to do?  Is there something else that we haven't seen at all, or was that just getting the lore confused (i.e. whoever wrote that line thought that the Reapers hadn't started travelling yet).

On a side note, when the Reapers actually arrive, why do they immediately start targeting planets instead of throwing everything at the citadel.  If all the Reapers went there together, could they not curbstomp the citadel fleet and shut down the relay network?  It looks like that's what they did to Earth instead, only they (seemingly?) get far less of an advantage out of it.  When the Alliance reclaimed the Normandy, did they immediately start mass manufacturing Reaper IFFs?  (i.e. if the Reapers don't actually shut down the relay network, but just make it unresponsive to any non-Reaper ships, widespread use of Reaper IFFs would negate the advantage)

 I like the way u think i purpose that maybe someone is smart enough to disable the charon relay keeping the reapers confined to earth however it seems unlikly that will happen it would make sense to me if it wnt down that way maybe the normandy does it as it leaves the system dont count edi out she is based on reaper tech and may come up with a way to controll the relay espically with a reaper iff in her possesion

[KevShep]

Veovim wrote...

.  If the Reapers had already given up on that plan before losing the base, then what exactly was it that Harbinger said they would "find another way" to do?  Is there something else that we haven't seen at all, or was that just getting the lore confused (i.e. whoever wrote that line thought that the Reapers hadn't started travelling yet).

 Thank you!................ Finaly some one is getting to the big point. I have said on these forums that the story is not to be taken at face value. We dont know what the reapers REAL motives are as of yet. Ive said that there is more to the collector story then meets the eye despite strong opposition.

Modifié par KevShep, 25 août 2011 - 06:43 .

[maxpowers2525]

Veovim wrote...

I think the question here is what exactly did we accomplish in ME2?  Destroying the a new Reaper (if it is indeed just another Reaper) isn't especially significant if there are hundreds or thousands more of them.  Likewise, destroying the mechanism for making new Reapers isn't actually a big deal because the Reapers can just rebuild it once they've secured the galaxy (that seems to be their preferred strategy--secure the galaxy quickly, then take their time harvesting).

One of the key points from the other thread is that the galaxy/universe is a really big place, even relative to having FTL capacity.  The mass relays are key to getting around that limitation, and it was mentioned (back in ME1) that one of the reasons the Reapers take the citadel right away is to shut down the relay network, leaving their victims cut off from one another and unable to rally their fleets.  The advantage is huge, and effectively wins the war for the Reapers immediately.  That, in my opinion, is why it makes sense for the Human Reaper to have been another vanguard--another attempt to seize that crucial advantage.  Sure, everyone had seen Sovereign, but pretty much no one but Shepard really believed it was anything more than a Geth ship; accordingly, the Collectors killed Shepard, ending the threat to their masters.  The citadel fleets might have been more wary of attacks, but the Reapers still had a massive fleet of Geth at their command (once the reprogramming virus was used; stopping the virus is one major thing you *might* have done in ME2), and they only had to win one battle to win the war.

Once the Reapers know that Shepard has been brought back to life, and they can no longer make a new vanguard remotely, then it makes sense for them to abandon their plans of using the citadel relay.  If the Reapers had already given up on that plan before losing the base, then what exactly was it that Harbinger said they would "find another way" to do?  Is there something else that we haven't seen at all, or was that just getting the lore confused (i.e. whoever wrote that line thought that the Reapers hadn't started travelling yet).

On a side note, when the Reapers actually arrive, why do they immediately start targeting planets instead of throwing everything at the citadel.  If all the Reapers went there together, could they not curbstomp the citadel fleet and shut down the relay network?  It looks like that's what they did to Earth instead, only they (seemingly?) get far less of an advantage out of it.  When the Alliance reclaimed the Normandy, did they immediately start mass manufacturing Reaper IFFs?  (i.e. if the Reapers don't actually shut down the relay network, but just make it unresponsive to any non-Reaper ships, widespread use of Reaper IFFs would negate the advantage)

 I like the way u think i purpose that maybe someone is smart enough to disable the charon relay keeping the reapers confined to earth however it seems unlikly that will happen it would make sense to me if it wnt down that way maybe the normandy does it as it leaves the system dont count edi out she is based on reaper tech and may come up with a way to controll the relay espically with a reaper iff in her possesion

[Halo Quea]

Hmmmmm......major plot holes ahead.

Here's the problem. If the Reapers can zip into the galaxy after only two years of travel (6 months if we're talking about the Alpha Relay), then what was the need for the Collectors? Again, another piece of plot information reveals that the O4R mission an absolute waste. It really looks like Shepard wasted valuable time, resources and personnel (if any of your sqauddies died) chasing the Collectors around the Terminus and into the Galactic Core. It also makes the Human Reaper project look like an even more ridiculous concept.

And this also makes Sovereign's actions look more than a little stupid. The Rachni Wars, and the Geth? What the hell did he need them for if he had the Alpha Relay? In fact, the Reapers as a whole come off as being a little stupid in light of this info.

If this was an effort to explain things..............well it only makes you question the Reaper's logic.

[shepskisaac]

Veovim wrote...

I think the question here is what exactly did we accomplish in ME2?  Destroying the a new Reaper (if it is indeed just another Reaper) isn't especially significant if there are hundreds or thousands more of them.

The question is, why do we have to accomplish something incredibly significant? I'll bring The Empire Strikes Back example again. There wasn't any big accomplishement there. Just as one could say "TESB was just a filler while the second Death Star was being constructed" just as well as "ME2 was pointless because it was just a filler while the Reapers where travelling". The point is that in both cases, the middle parts of the trilogies where suppoused to be character-driven and lay the ground for the final act. Nowhere it is said there has to be a significant accomplishement in every part of the story (especially the middle one).

Modifié par IsaacShep, 25 août 2011 - 06:43 .

[Anacronian Stryx]

Arcian wrote...

maxpowers2525 wrote...

just noticed he didnt really say that the human reaper wasnt a new vanguard just said it was a new reaper i dont think that rules out the vanguard replacement theory

They don't need a Vanguard if they're going to the galaxy by themselves. It would take them more time to build a new Vanguard than what it would take them to pour into the galaxy via the Alpha Relay and just deal with **** the normal way. Whatever the HR was, it wasn't a Vanguard.

Not for the current cycle, anyhow.

It might have been meant for after this cycle - Though I'm no expert in reaper construction i would say The HR didn't look anywhere near completion.

Though Legion mentions that the reapers promised the Heretics a reaper they could upload themselves into, So they might have began construction early to appease them (though I'm fairly sure the reapers would never keep that promise). 

[Veovim]

IsaacShep wrote...
The question is, why do we have to accomplish something incredibly significant? ... Nowhere it is said there has to be a significant accomplishement in every part of the story (especially the middle one).

Ok, that's fair.  That maybe wasn't the best way to open my post, but I stand behind the rest of it.  Essentially it seems like the Reapers are taking plan A, when plan B is better.  I'll acknowledge that it's possible that everything really does make sense, and we just don't have a good enough of view of the big picture yet, but at this point, it had better be one heck of an explanation coming.

[maxpowers2525]

i can see the need to stop the collectors even with the reapers on the way if not stopped the collectors could have considerbly weakened humanity and the alliance the cheif threat to the reapers i think because i remeber it said somewhere that the other alien races considered humanity a sleeping giant because such a small % were millitary compared to all other races and u better believe when reapers come anyone that can shoot a gun will shoot a gun

[KevShep]

Arcian wrote...

KevShep wrote...

If the Reapers had already given up on that plan before losing the base, then what exactly was it that Harbinger said they would "find another way" to do?

Find another way to ascend humanity.

Thats not what I wrote!

[Veovim]

Arcian wrote...

Veovim wrote...

If the Reapers had already given up on that plan before losing the base, then what exactly was it that Harbinger said they would "find another way" to do?

Find another way to ascend humanity.

Needing another way to ascend humanity implies that the Reapers lack the ability to rebuild their own base.  Why would they have been built/built themselves with such a stupid flaw?

Edit: come to think of it, Harbinger says the same thing even if you don't destroy the base, so why would they need another way then if they can just reclaim the old one?

Modifié par Veovim, 25 août 2011 - 06:59 .

[joeYF127]

i think the collecters were a loose end that the reapers needed tieing up. they had outlived their usefulness, either that or the illusive man was already indocterenated and wanted shepard chasing false leads so the reapers could form a better plan.

[maxpowers2525]

joeYF127 wrote...

i think the collecters were a loose end that the reapers needed tieing up. they had outlived their usefulness, either that or the illusive man was already indocterenated and wanted shepard chasing false leads so the reapers could form a better plan.

seems far fetched

[Halo Quea]

IsaacShep wrote...

Veovim wrote...

I think the question here is what exactly did we accomplish in ME2?  Destroying the a new Reaper (if it is indeed just another Reaper) isn't especially significant if there are hundreds or thousands more of them.

The question is, why do we have to accomplish something incredibly significant? I'll bring The Empire Strikes Back example again. There wasn't any big accomplishement there. Just as one could say "TESB was just a filler while the second Death Star was being constructed" just as well as "ME2 was pointless because it was just a filler while the Reapers where travelling". The point is that in both cases, the middle parts of the trilogies where suppoused to be character-driven and lay the ground for the final act. Nowhere it is said there has to be a significant accomplishement in every part of the story (especially the middle one).

That's a very interesting point, but that's NOT how the Suicide Mission was being sold to Shepard.   Shepard goes through the O4R almost on a dare and being 99.9% blind as to what's waiting for him on the other side.  All he really knows is that's where human colonists are being taken.  

Not surprisingly with hundreds of thousands of colonists abducted,  the Normandy is too small and ill-equipped to mount a real rescue.   Something TIM should have been able to  figure out without any recon mission.     So Shepard is really only going through the O4R to save his crew.  AND THOSE ARE THE ONLY PEOPLE  Shepard saves, he rescues no colonists who could come back and tell the story to everyone else.  And I guess Shepard never recorded or photographed any of it, and I guess anything his surviving crew members would say wouldn't be believed be anyone anyway.  Right?

Don't you see?  We're already strecthing and reaching to grasp the logic and reasoning behind the Collectors and the O4R mission.  NOW we're told that the Reapers could have popped over in six months or two years at ANYTIME?   The whole story is really starting to feel broken. 

[KevShep]

maxpowers2525 wrote...

joeYF127 wrote...

i think the collecters were a loose end that the reapers needed tieing up. they had outlived their usefulness, either that or the illusive man was already indocterenated and wanted shepard chasing false leads so the reapers could form a better plan.

seems far fetched

I have a theory (call it far fetched if you want) that the collectors are not originaly reaper design. They were prothean survivors that made a relay(O4 relay after the invasion) and hid away from the eyes of the reapers in order to counter the next reaper invasion. Some where along the way the reapers not only found them out but indoctrinated and repurposed them. Now instead of the reapers useing a current race to harvest the next cycle there are useing the protheans. Notice that the reapers are having trouble keeping them working. They have to keep implanting/cloning/maintaining them just to keep them going. It sounds like the collectors may have been an unforeseem problem that they decided to use.

Modifié par KevShep, 25 août 2011 - 07:18 .

[maxpowers2525]

Halo Quea wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

Veovim wrote...

I think the question here is what exactly did we accomplish in ME2?  Destroying the a new Reaper (if it is indeed just another Reaper) isn't especially significant if there are hundreds or thousands more of them.

The question is, why do we have to accomplish something incredibly significant? I'll bring The Empire Strikes Back example again. There wasn't any big accomplishement there. Just as one could say "TESB was just a filler while the second Death Star was being constructed" just as well as "ME2 was pointless because it was just a filler while the Reapers where travelling". The point is that in both cases, the middle parts of the trilogies where suppoused to be character-driven and lay the ground for the final act. Nowhere it is said there has to be a significant accomplishement in every part of the story (especially the middle one).

That's a very interesting point, but that's NOT how the Suicide Mission was being sold to Shepard.   Shepard goes through the O4R almost on a dare and being 99.9% blind as to what's waiting for him on the other side.  All he really knows is that's where human colonists are being taken.  

Not surprisingly with hundreds of thousands of colonists abducted,  the Normandy is too small and ill-equipped to mount a real rescue.   Something TIM should have been able to  figure out without any recon mission.     So Shepard is really only going through the O4R to save his crew.  AND THOSE ARE THE ONLY PEOPLE  Shepard saves, he rescues no colonists who could come back and tell the story to everyone else.  And I guess Shepard never recorded or photographed any of it, and I guess anything his surviving crew members would say wouldn't be believed be anyone anyway.  Right?

Don't you see?  We're already strecthing and reaching to grasp the logic and reasoning behind the Collectors and the O4R mission.  NOW we're told that the Reapers could have popped over in six months or two years at ANYTIME?   The whole story is really starting to feel broken. 

 I dont really remember the suicide miss being about rescuing colonist but more about stopping the collectors no one gave shep a chance stoping saren by going to ilos but he did and tim would know this