132 réponses à ce sujet

[Thrombin]

All it takes to make Plan A sensible is for the Reapers to be asleep until Saren gives Sovereign access to the Citadel. If only the Citadel can send a message to the Reapers to wake them up then there's no chance of a Plan B until after ME1.

As for why they would risk harvesting before arrival I think it's just their mindset. As far as they're concerned there's no risk. The Collector's are almost as indomitable as the Reapers. Nothing can take out a Collector ship, nothing can enter the Omega 4 relay and nothing can penetrate the Collector base.

Even if they could, why would they care? It's just a minor blip in their conquest. Nothing organics do can stop them. Their destruction is inevitable. Why bother making decisions based on what might go wrong when, as far as the Reapers are concerned, they are invincible?

Regards

Julian

Modifié par Thrombin, 26 août 2011 - 01:27 .

[thekook78]

 (delurks)I'm finding this topic very interesting and it answers quite a few questions we have about the timeline and the reapers motives. I have a crackpot theory so please tear it apart if you will. Some of this may have been repeated before. Warning, wall of text coming in.

So, the Reapers are coming straight to earth and not the Citadel, the hub of the galaxy and the center of all the mass relays. I asked myself why is this and I thought about this reason in the most basic form.

From the Reapers perspective, your initial plan has failed because of the unexpected and untimely intervention of a race you thought you eliminated (the Protheans). The Keepers failed to respond to your commands which means you don't know how long it will take to reprogram them and regain control of the Citadel. While you're trying to regain control there is no guarantee that the other races that still have control of the relays won't all jump in at once and try to take out the Reapers. However, since your vanguard Sovereign has been destroyed you don't know exactly how powerful these races are so that plan gives you pause. And even more specifically, the Reapers don't know how powerful humans are.

So, if I'm the Reapers, in order to find out how powerful these "humans" are, you send the collectors out to do some "experiments" on humans (ME2) and check out their genetic potential, and/or threat level, while you start your journey to the galaxy. It would be prudent to see what kind of "crop" has sprung up this time.  Intelligence is key to winning a war. Then, another human-centric organization, Cerberus, takes out the Collectors, which happens your eyes and ears until you arrive.  

For the first time in who knows how many cycles the Reapers realize there might be a legitmate threat to them. Twice, humans have been at the center of two events blocking the Reapers plans. Ok, bear with me I am finally getting to my point about why the Reapers are going to Earth. Which is Reapers plan B.

If you're going to into a fight and you know where the biggest, baddest threat to you lives and you can take them out at their home without their friends being around, wouldn't you do it? It's a simple computation for either a sentient machine or a human being that when you go to a fight you take out the biggest threat first, right? Especially if you can single them out. The psychological impact to all of their friends would be enormous and the Reapers "you can't defeat us" mystique would be restored. Plus, if you could indoctrinate humans and use them before culling them into the next reaper would be a double victory.

Thoughts?? 

(relurks)

[Il Divo]

stysiaq wrote...

And I'll continue to mock the idea of FTL travel itself and "tired Reapers" idea. I don't want the Reapers to be indestructible, have unlimited energy or anything like that, but considering that they're up to quite a big task AGAIN, I reject the Reapers being unprepared for the whole thing. And they don't look a bit tired in trailers. 

They use eezo, as every spacecraft. That is one more planet to visit before the main show, in my opinion. Well, it can be even used in the plot, protecting eezo-rich planets, who knows. 

And galaxy has petrol stations. That was quite stupid and unnecessary addition to the series, but it is true.

What exactly should a tired Reaper look like? They're still millenia old machine-Gods capable of galactic genocide. They're just not on their A-game. Vigil himself makes clear in Mass Effect 1 that the Reapers remain in dark space to conserve energy, which is not possible by traveling to the Alpha Relay. .

[bboynexus]

To avoid repeating myself incessantly, I'm just going to quote my own thread:

http://forums.steamp...d.php?t=2011810

Modifié par bboynexus, 26 août 2011 - 01:56 .

[Johnny34]

I never understood the whole travelling faster than light thing. How is that explained?

[weirdnerd]

Johnny34 wrote...

I never understood the whole travelling faster than light thing. How is that explained?

honestly i could try but admitidly i would probably **** it up so just read the stuff in the codex

[el master pr]

Why don't the Reapers go directly to the Citadel and shut down the Mass Relay Network? Easy: because they have no control over the Citadel anymore. Sovereign sent the signal to the Citadel, which in turn sent the signal to the keepers. Vigil says that the keepers evolved in a way that they only obeyed the Citadel, not the Reapers. This evolution, unexpected by the Reapers, is what the Protheans exploited. They found a way to block the signal sent by Sovereign to the Citadel, thus blocking the signal that prompted the keepers to open the Citadel Relay. And this is why the Reapers won't go straight to the Citadel and retake the Mass Relay Network, imho.

After the end of ME1 the Reapers start their FTL jump to the Milky Way's edge, towards the Alpha Relay. A month later, the Collectors kill Shepard. Two months later, if I remember correctly, the Collectors are dealing with the SB to retrieve Shepard's body. Liara thwarts their plan, and Cerberus starts the Lazarus Project.

During the time Shepard is dead, the Collectors get busy abducting entire human colonies. They start building the Human Reaper in the Collector Base, which is at the Galaxy Core safe from prying eyes and beyond the innavigable Omega-4 Relay. Fast forward two years, and Shepard's back from the dead and working with Cerberus. Now, the sole purpose of Shepard in ME2 is to stop the Collectors from abducting entire human colonies. Shepard does not know has no clue at all that the Reapers are on their way to the galaxy. At the end of ME2, Shepard forces the Reapers to pospone the construction of the Human Reaper by annihilating the Collectors.

In Arrival, which is a few months after the Suicide Mission, Shepard discovers that the Reapers are in fact days away from the Alpha Relay in the Bahak system. He destroys the Alpha Relay just hours before they reach the Bahak system, delaying the Reapers and prompting them to, once again, change their plan. The delay of the Reapers' arrival came at a high cost however: ~305,000 batarians dead. Admiral Hackett then goes on to say the Alliance brass will want explanations, and essentially warns him about a trial to avoid Batarian retaliation.

Before going into pure speculation mode I'd like to state some unfinished plot points from ME2, some are especifically from the DLCs. We got hints on LotSB that the Shadow Broker was investigating the Protheans. To what extend or purpose this was, it was never stated. Another thing is Keiji's Graybox from Kasumi - Stolen Memory, which has a secret that may somehow perjudicate the Systems Alliance's position in galactic affairs. What contains the graybox is still a mystery to this day. Everything relating to the Reapers hasn't been confirmed until now. This plot points will hopefully be explained in ME3.

Now, the facts pertinent to our discussion that we know about ME3 are: a) Shepard's on Earth on trial for the ~305,000 dead Batarians; the Reapers arrive at Earth in the midst of the trial; c) they have ground troops composed of Husks and Cannibals, which are Batarian-Human hybrids; and d) they start at Earth, but soon spread out to attack other planets on the galaxy.

Now, the speculation. I guess we can safely assume that the Reapers made a pit stop at a Batarian system, maybe to restock on resources and using the chance to recruit ground troops. This theory is supported by the Galaxy Map someone showed some time ago on a thread that shows Batarian space extending from the Batarian-controlled Bahak system to the border of Alliance space. As to why they'd attack Earth first from all the planets and colonies on the galaxy, there are many reasons. For starters, Shepard, the one sentient being who has earned the right to be an annoyance to the Reapers, is a human. Earth is the homeworld of humanity, and one of the most famous tactics to destroy the morale of an enemy is to invade the place they call home. This seems feasible since they apparently are bent on "ascending humanity to perfection".

As always, the most probable thing is I am wrong since I haven't played the game(ME3, of course). If you see anything wrong, please correct me. First time I write so much s**t on a thread.

[Shotokanguy]

Jeez, all this discussion of the entire series' plot lately almost has my mind reeling.

The Mass Effect 3 Dissertation, the cut writing that looks like it reveals something about the Reaper's origins, these new little tidbits of info...

Anyone else want to start praying with me that ME3's story realizes it's potential? More and more it seems like they know what they're doing, but it also seems more and more complex...

Modifié par Shotokanguy, 26 août 2011 - 02:36 .

[RyuGuitarFreak]

1136342t54 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...
And once they find that out( which I doubt they didn't before Freedo's Progress), why bother to abduct colonists?

Just wait for other Reapers and geth Earth humans for that Reaper.

Think about the damage that Human Reaper could do in the mean time? Also why would they wait? They have enough time to build a human Reaper and it would be much quicker to just use the Colelctors to hit humanity and create a new Reaper. Hackett even mentioned how the Collectors were hurting Alliance ships.

Not the destruction the Human Reaper could do but the destruction of humanity in the process. It was a threat they acknoledged. Humanity stopped Sovereign. Not only because of Shepard but include Fifth Fleet there. They had to deal with it. They killed Shepard first and then started doing casualties on humanity and making their reproduction in the process. Win, win, win. But then, humanity also had Cerberus...

Gonna read the rest of thread now...

[el master pr]

luk4s3d wrote...

Shotokanguy wrote...

Jeez, all this discussion of the entire series' plot lately almost has my mind reeling.

The Mass Effect 3 Dissertation, the cut writing that looks like it reveals something about the Reaper's origins, these new little tidbits of info...

Anyone else want to start praying with me that ME3's story realizes it's potential? More and more it seems like they know what they're doing, but it also seems more and more complex...

Exactly, thatys why people get confused: it's incredibly intricate and there are parts that are easy to miss.

There are definitely no plot holes!

I completely agree.

[Walker White]

One of the things overlooked about the Human Reaper is that, when finished, it might have been more powerful/effective than the existing reapers. For example, it is possible that, being made of humans, that its indoctrination would have been far more effective on other humans.

[Rahmiel]

Halo Quea wrote...

I disagree, Plan A has too many moving parts, and too many negative outcomes. 

- The Rachni Wars [which raised the Krogan, and created a vengeful Rachni Queen]
-The Thorian [evidence left behind]
-The Geth [Heretics followed, but the rest of the Geth rejected]
-The Collectors [drawing attention to themselves in the Terminus]
-Eden Prime  [prompting the Council to bring Shepard into play. A figure who could possibly unite the Galaxy]
-Even Saren himself becomes a liability. 

Plan B is a straight shot that doesn't tip off the entire Galaxy or involve less than committed team players.  Plan B wouldn't have left Sovereign's shell and Reaper tech exposed and exploited.  Plan B is LOGICAL,  Plan A is NOT.

I disagree with you.  I think the reaping strategy works out well, and is unfolding in a logical manner.  I suppose the lynch pin to my belief in all this, comes down to what woke up the reapers in hibernation.  It's possible the reapers were always in communication with Sovereign or did Sovereign send a signal during the attack on the citadel.

If he were always in contact with the reapers (and this is entirely likely) then why would they not travel those 2 years instead of waiting for Sovereign to regain control of the citadel.  But.. here's the saving grace.. would the reapers attack the galaxy via the alpha relay not knowing what the protheans did?  Sovereign (and the reapers by extension) know the keepers are not responding to the signal, but what else could the protheans have done?  Could they have taken control of the relays and not allowed the reapers to cut off individual systems?  That makes sense that Sovereign was more recon during all this time until the reapers were confident they could regain control of the citadel (which happens at the end of ME1 so they start heading back)

The rachni wars, hopefully we get more definite answers behind this.  We do know that the salarians opened a relay and came across the rachni.  If the salarians never opened that relay, no war.  So for me, it's difficult to say that Sovereign or the reapers were directly involved.  They may have been, but that was not confirmed.  We only know that "something" "soured" the rachni song.  We assume it's the reapers, but we do not know.  It also could have been a device similar to the indoctrination device miners found on Aequitas.  I'm hoping for more clarification in ME3.  But everything about this period is pure speculation.

The Thorian, I don't see how this is sloppy.  Saren and Sovereign need the Thorian to decypher the information from the beacon on Eden Prime.  How did they know the Thorian could do this?  That's up for speculation (unless I missed something or am forgetful).  Either the Reapers do have knowledge of the thorian's existence, or else Saren found out through his channels as a spectre.  Why leave it alive?  This was likely a decision of Saren's and not Sovereigns.  Not like Sovereign could bombard the colony and get away with it.  He's playing the role of a starship and keeping a low profile.  As to why the reapers would leave it alive, it poses no threat to the reapers.  The thorian seeks out organic life to manipulate, not to communicate with, or trade, or have relations.

The Geth?  Not much of a problem.  I'm sure Sovereign knows about the divide between organics and the geth, which is probably why he approached them in the first place.  There's not much threat of the geth revealing the existence of the old machines to the organics.

The collectors killed Shepard.  That's a smart move, he's the only one really doing anything about the reaper threat so they removed him.  Now the collectors can either head back to the galactic core, or start abducting humans for their Reaper.  Why not get started on the reaper?  If they draw attention to themselves, they can just retreat behind the O4R and wait for the reapers to arrive.  I mean, no one suspects a machine race of coming to wipe out all civilizations because of the collectors.. (except Shepard)  It's also easier to abduct people while there is no galactic war going on.  But that last part is just speculation on my behalf.

Eden Prime was necessary for Sovereign and Saren because it led them to begin searching for the Conduit.  That was the first piece to the puzzle of why the keepers were not responding to Sovereign's signal.  Had Shepard and crew not been in the area (which, btw they were because of the beacon) then all this never would have happened.  But Sovereign and Saren could not leave the beacon alone because it would reveal the existence of the Reapers, as well as being a way to bring back the Reapers in dark space.  Seems like a good gamble.  We either risk revealing ourselves or sit back and do nothing.. and wait for them to find out about our existence from studying the beacons and possibly how to stop us.

How does Saren become a liability?  Saren found out about Sovereign and for 20 years studied the Reaper.  He was prepared for Sovereign.  Sovereign had no choice in partnering with Saren, but this is also where he lucked out.  Saren was a spectre, and could go places and learn things that Sovereign could not.  Saren's spectre status gives him unprecedented access to just about everything in citadel space.

Lastly, for those people asking why build a human reaper when there are thousands.. well.. we know of the derelict reaper, we know Sovereign has died, so you're 2 reapers down.  2 is not a large number in comparison to 1000, I know, but at some point in time you do have to replenish your numbers.  What makes humans so special?  I hope this is revealed in ME3, and hopefully has something to do with the Prothean artifact we encountered in ME1 where we had a vision or dream we were a caveman or ape.. whatever.

[stysiaq]

^^
I always thought, that the larva is what the Reaper looks like 'at first', like fetus. When they're finished, thay look all like giant space parasites.

[Rahmiel]

Let's also not forget that the reapers were using the collector's to build the human reaper. With the collector's out of the way (either by destroying the base entirely, or just killing the collectors) then the reapers have to find another slave race to build their reaper, or another method.

This lends credence to Harbinger saying "We will find another way". I think someone is right in saying they'll find another way to help the human race to "ascend". Whether that's with another human reaper, or individual slurry drinks for all reapers, we'll have to wait and see.

[Rahmiel]

stysiaq wrote...

^^
I always thought, that the larva is what the Reaper looks like 'at first', like fetus. When they're finished, thay look all like giant space parasites.

That's true.  It was mentioned elsewhere that this is the case (in a tweet, or something?)

My question is.. what did the derelict reaper look like inside  

[Veovim]

el master pr wrote...
Why don't the Reapers go directly to the Citadel and shut down the Mass Relay Network? Easy: because they have no control over the Citadel anymore. Sovereign sent the signal to the Citadel, which in turn sent the signal to the keepers. Vigil says that the keepers evolved in a way that they only obeyed the Citadel, not the Reapers. This evolution, unexpected by the Reapers, is what the Protheans exploited. They found a way to block the signal sent by Sovereign to the Citadel, thus blocking the signal that prompted the keepers to open the Citadel Relay. And this is why the Reapers won't go straight to the Citadel and retake the Mass Relay Network, imho.

The end of ME1 suggested that while Sovereign couldn't control the citadel remotely, it could directly (physically) interface with the citadel's systems and control everything that way.  It sounded like the main thing Saren was needed for was to close the ward arms to protect Sovereign while it made the connection.  If the bulk of the Reaper fleet attacked the citadel together, though, they would probably out match the defenders so badly that the protection from the ward arms wouldn't be needed--there wouldn't be any ships left to pose a threat after the initial onslaught.

[el master pr]

Veovim wrote...

el master pr wrote...
Why don't the Reapers go directly to the Citadel and shut down the Mass Relay Network? Easy: because they have no control over the Citadel anymore. Sovereign sent the signal to the Citadel, which in turn sent the signal to the keepers. Vigil says that the keepers evolved in a way that they only obeyed the Citadel, not the Reapers. This evolution, unexpected by the Reapers, is what the Protheans exploited. They found a way to block the signal sent by Sovereign to the Citadel, thus blocking the signal that prompted the keepers to open the Citadel Relay. And this is why the Reapers won't go straight to the Citadel and retake the Mass Relay Network, imho.

The end of ME1 suggested that while Sovereign couldn't control the citadel remotely, it could directly (physically) interface with the citadel's systems and control everything that way.  It sounded like the main thing Saren was needed for was to close the ward arms to protect Sovereign while it made the connection.  If the bulk of the Reaper fleet attacked the citadel together, though, they would probably out match the defenders so badly that the protection from the ward arms wouldn't be needed--there wouldn't be any ships left to pose a threat after the initial onslaught.

Indeed, you are right. Sovereign could directly(physically) interface with the Citadel's systems and get full control of the station, but:

ME wiki says...

"After killing the operators of Citadel Control, Saren made his way toward the Citadel's master control unit, intending to transfer control of the Citadel to Sovereign to activate the latent mass relay, paving the way for the rest of the Reapers to enter through from dark space. Saren was interrupted, however, when Shepard and the Ilos ground team rushed in."

Also, about the ward arms:

ME wiki says...

If any enemy gets close enough, the station is capable of closing in on itself to form a long, armored cylinder, 25 kilometers in length. The station's hull is sufficiently strong that, even when subjected to the most advanced weaponry available, it would take several days of sustained bombardment to inflict any serious damage to the superstructure.

So assuming that with the Reaper's weapons it would just take hours, the whole galaxy could very well be in the Citadel before the Reapers could get inside. And even then, they'd need someone who transfers control of the Citadel to them.

edit: bold text on ME wiki quotes

Modifié par el master pr, 26 août 2011 - 06:20 .

[Homebound]

why cant apples be oranges? i dunno then theyd be oranges instead of apples.

[Candidate 88766]

el master pr wrote...

Veovim wrote...

el master pr wrote...
Why don't the Reapers go directly to the Citadel and shut down the Mass Relay Network? Easy: because they have no control over the Citadel anymore. Sovereign sent the signal to the Citadel, which in turn sent the signal to the keepers. Vigil says that the keepers evolved in a way that they only obeyed the Citadel, not the Reapers. This evolution, unexpected by the Reapers, is what the Protheans exploited. They found a way to block the signal sent by Sovereign to the Citadel, thus blocking the signal that prompted the keepers to open the Citadel Relay. And this is why the Reapers won't go straight to the Citadel and retake the Mass Relay Network, imho.

The end of ME1 suggested that while Sovereign couldn't control the citadel remotely, it could directly (physically) interface with the citadel's systems and control everything that way.  It sounded like the main thing Saren was needed for was to close the ward arms to protect Sovereign while it made the connection.  If the bulk of the Reaper fleet attacked the citadel together, though, they would probably out match the defenders so badly that the protection from the ward arms wouldn't be needed--there wouldn't be any ships left to pose a threat after the initial onslaught.

Indeed, you are right. Sovereign could directly(physically) interface with the Citadel's systems and get full control of the station, but:

ME wiki says...

"After killing the operators of Citadel Control, Saren made his way toward the Citadel's master control unit, intending to transfer control of the Citadel to Sovereign to activate the latent mass relay, paving the way for the rest of the Reapers to enter through from dark space. Saren was interrupted, however, when Shepard and the Ilos ground team rushed in."

Also, about the ward arms:

ME wiki says...

If any enemy gets close enough, the station is capable of closing in on itself to form a long, armored cylinder, 25 kilometers in length. The station's hull is sufficiently strong that, even when subjected to the most advanced weaponry available, it would take several days of sustained bombardment to inflict any serious damage to the superstructure.

So assuming that with the Reaper's weapons it would just take hours, the whole galaxy could very well be in the Citadel before the Reapers could get inside. And even then, they'd need someone who transfers control of the Citadel to them.

edit: bold text on ME wiki quotes

However, the Reapers may not want to destroy the Citadel - it is the key to the cycles, and unless they have no other choice they'll want to preserve it for the next generation of civilization. While the Keepers could repair some damage, I doubt they have the resources to rebuild an entire arm of the Citadel. Damaging it too much could destroy the Relay system inside it. While I'm sure the Reapers could eventually repair it, it wouldn't be easy. So I don't think the Reapers will bombard the Citadel - rather, they'll just wait it out. The people inside can't hide forever as I doubt the vats can provide food for millions of people for a prolonged time, and eventually indoctrination will set in even through the ward arms. Also, we know the glimpses of the ME3 galaxy map that Shepard still has access to at least some Relays, which implies the Reapers don't gain control of the Citadel.

On a slightly different note, I really want to see the Citadel Relay activated in ME3. I just really want to know what it looks like when activated, and see what is at the other end - probably just a big Relay, but it could be that Dark Citadel idea some people have thrown around. I imagine the arms completetly open up, making it look a bit like a flower, and the ring of Presidium is the gate through which the Reapers can arrive - other Relays have drift, but I imagine the Reapers wanted the Citadel Relay to be as precise as possible.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Halo Quea wrote...

Hmmmmm......major plot holes ahead.

Here's the problem. If the Reapers can zip into the galaxy after only two years of travel (6 months if we're talking about the Alpha Relay), then what was the need for the Collectors? Again, another piece of plot information reveals that the O4R mission an absolute waste. It really looks like Shepard wasted valuable time, resources and personnel (if any of your sqauddies died) chasing the Collectors around the Terminus and into the Galactic Core. It also makes the Human Reaper project look like an even more ridiculous concept.

And this also makes Sovereign's actions look more than a little stupid. The Rachni Wars, and the Geth? What the hell did he need them for if he had the Alpha Relay? In fact, the Reapers as a whole come off as being a little stupid in light of this info.

If this was an effort to explain things..............well it only makes you question the Reaper's logic.

Yes, obvious plot holes one san see a million miles away. And poeple wonder why I dislike ME2...

Reapers come of as Psychols from Battlefield Earth (NC review)
www.youtube.com/watch