129 réponses à ce sujet

[xassantex]

it's all fascinating. But i have a fixation on staircases. No theory that doesn't elucidate this puzzle will ever satisfy me. ( the derelict reaper ). Did the Cerberus team build them? ... they must have been very busy before being turned into husks.

[HadesBR]

I have a lot of theories too.. i can't even imagine what Bioware will do to explain this, but i'm sure as hell that it's going to be awesome..

[N0-Future]

Cant wait to find out, there are some great theories on here though.

[capn233]

xassantex wrote...

it's all fascinating. But i have a fixation on staircases. No theory that doesn't elucidate this puzzle will ever satisfy me. ( the derelict reaper ). Did the Cerberus team build them? ... they must have been very busy before being turned into husks.

You're talking about in the Derelict right?  I think all of the stuff that looks like it could be out of any random building (ie platforms and stairs) were just things Cerberus put in there for convenience.  Prefabbed scaffolding.  It wouldn't take long at all.  Look how fast a construction company can do things if they are getting paid.

As for the issue at hand, as long as we don't get anything like this...

Harbinger:  Anderson never told you what happened to your father.
Shepard: He told me enough.  He told me you killed him.
Harbinger:  No.  I am your father.
*music*
Shepard:  No, that's not true! That's impossible!

The other thing, Humans really made the Reapers... I really doubt that will be the case.  The fact that Halo went that direction and made the Humans a former powerful race that rivaled the Forerunners was, well, bad enough.

I imagine that they will be constructs from whatever was one of the first advanced races in the galaxy.  Sort of like the "Virtual Aliens" in that Cerberus Daily News story taken to a different extreme where they fused themselves with machine rathe than simply uploading their consciousness.  Maybe they felt they were more powerful in their new incarnation, but lacked the ability to evolve in anyway... so they went about messing around with organics to see what new traits had developed, while leaving the tech behind to ensure technology evolved along their routes so that they would always have dominance.

Modifié par capn233, 16 septembre 2011 - 05:39 .

[CaptainBlackGold]

Valdrane78 wrote...

I don't know, the trans dimensional thing has been done to death as well. It's all been done before so the question you have to ask yourself is, what seems more plausible? I wrote a theory in my first post that has nothing to do with them being built or being a dimensional being, but it just feels far fetched to me, even for sci-fi. It seems mor eplausible to me that they were built, then turned on their masters, and with that big chip on their shoulders decide to purge organics from time to time.

Really? I would be interested in knowing what stories, authors, books or TV shows you are referencing here - not saying you are wrong, just that I am not familiar with a lot of writers going this route - I cannot think of an example, off the top of my head. So if it has been "done to death" I would like to track some of this down!

And actually, I agree that the idea that they were "built" and went "bad" is far more "plausible" - just in my opinion, a bit trite. Putting on my metagaming hat, I think Bioware is just more clever than that.

Of course, if they really want to torque off the entire community, as I wrote in another topic, they could just have the Reapers about to win a final victory when their parents show up and scold them for not playing nice with their toys and make them go home to finish their homework or something...

Anyways, I see many subtle "foreshadows" that the Mass Effect universe is more than what can be explained by a simple materialistic paradigm - that there is "something" else out there. Whether these were actual foreshadows, remnants of earlier plot ideas, or just "stuff" thrown in for grins, we'll have to wait and see.

But it is fun to speculate, isn't it?

[eye basher]

The reapers are probably just some old WMD.

[xassantex]

capn233 wrote...

xassantex wrote...

it's all fascinating. But i have a fixation on staircases. No theory that doesn't elucidate this puzzle will ever satisfy me. ( the derelict reaper ). Did the Cerberus team build them? ... they must have been very busy before being turned into husks.

You're talking about in the Derelict right?  I think all of the stuff that looks like it could be out of any random building (ie platforms and stairs) were just things Cerberus put in there for convenience.  Prefabbed scaffolding.  It wouldn't take long at all.  Look how fast a construction company can do things if they are getting paid.

As for the issue at hand, as long as we don't get anything like this...

Harbinger:  Anderson never told you what happened to your father.
Shepard: He told me enough.  He told me you killed him.
Harbinger:  No.  I am your father.
*music*
Shepard:  No, that's not true! That's impossible!

The other thing, Humans really made the Reapers... I really doubt that will be the case.  The fact that Halo went that direction and made the Humans a former powerful race that rivaled the Forerunners was, well, bad enough.

I imagine that they will be constructs from whatever was one of the first advanced races in the galaxy.  Sort of like the "Virtual Aliens" in that Cerberus Daily News story taken to a different extreme where they fused themselves with machine rathe than simply uploading their consciousness.  Maybe they felt they were more powerful in their new incarnation, but lacked the ability to evolve in anyway... so they went about messing around with organics to see what new traits had developed, while leaving the tech behind to ensure technology evolved along their routes so that they would always have dominance.

yeah, that makes sense . 

haha , "you've reached John Shepard-Harbinger , please leave a message" ..

[DCarter]

I really don't like hte humans made the reapers theory. It just feels unnecessary, the mass effect universe is crammed full of interesting species, why does everything need to be centred around the humans. It just doesn't fit the IP to me.

[111987]

DCarter wrote...

I really don't like hte humans made the reapers theory. It just feels unnecessary, the mass effect universe is crammed full of interesting species, why does everything need to be centred around the humans. It just doesn't fit the IP to me.

I've never even understood how it would be possible. We know Reapers have existed for at least 37 million years, which was way before the time of humans...unless the theory is that humans originally evolved millions of years ago, created the Reapers, and were then destroyed/devolved? Seems a little far-fetched to me.

[Valdrane78]

CaptainBlackGold wrote...

Valdrane78 wrote...

I don't know, the trans dimensional thing has been done to death as well. It's all been done before so the question you have to ask yourself is, what seems more plausible? I wrote a theory in my first post that has nothing to do with them being built or being a dimensional being, but it just feels far fetched to me, even for sci-fi. It seems mor eplausible to me that they were built, then turned on their masters, and with that big chip on their shoulders decide to purge organics from time to time.

Really? I would be interested in knowing what stories, authors, books or TV shows you are referencing here - not saying you are wrong, just that I am not familiar with a lot of writers going this route - I cannot think of an example, off the top of my head. So if it has been "done to death" I would like to track some of this down!

And actually, I agree that the idea that they were "built" and went "bad" is far more "plausible" - just in my opinion, a bit trite. Putting on my metagaming hat, I think Bioware is just more clever than that.

Of course, if they really want to torque off the entire community, as I wrote in another topic, they could just have the Reapers about to win a final victory when their parents show up and scold them for not playing nice with their toys and make them go home to finish their homework or something...

Anyways, I see many subtle "foreshadows" that the Mass Effect universe is more than what can be explained by a simple materialistic paradigm - that there is "something" else out there. Whether these were actual foreshadows, remnants of earlier plot ideas, or just "stuff" thrown in for grins, we'll have to wait and see.

But it is fun to speculate, isn't it?

Stargate, Farscape, Star Trek: TNG just to name a few off the top of my head.  And yes, Bioware is clever, but if they think too far outside the box, people will just think it's stupid and it could be a game killer, it has to be handled gently.

[CaptainBlackGold]

Valdrane78 wrote...

Stargate, Farscape, Star Trek: TNG just to name a few off the top of my head.  And yes, Bioware is clever, but if they think too far outside the box, people will just think it's stupid and it could be a game killer, it has to be handled gently.

Ok, gotta admit, I stopped watching Stargate and Farscape after the first season (real life kept interfering with my nerd life!) - and with ST:TNG I assume you are referencing the "Q,"

In the first two examples, I am unfamiliar with a "pan-dimensional entity" being the Big Bad and the "Q" was TNG's version of "Evolutionary Advanced Race Ascending to God-Like Status." Didn't Weslesy actually become a "Q" at one point (and left the show - which made it incredibly less painful to watch)?

But that brings me back to my main point; everyone is assuming the Reapers MUST be a product of somewhere between the Big Bang and the Heat Death of the universe - and they may well be right. All I am suggesting is that their origins are far more in line with some of the foreshadowing I see outside this paradigm.

Of course, Bioware could go the route, "We'll never know their true origins - that must remain a mystery" which to my mind would be the worst "explanation" of all. I hate it when writers create something intriguing and then refuse to provide an answer because they want to leave it up to the audience's "imagination." I just think it's cheap and shows a lack of imagination on their part. Ideally, at least in my book, they should have had an explantion in mind when they began the series, tease us with hints, false leads, and such and then, at the end, give their explanation to bring about a final resolution.

Already, this thread has offered a number of tantalizing possibilities - and therefore they should be able to come up with something even more interesting than what we have speculated on - after all, they get paid for it!

[Valdrane78]

DCarter wrote...

I really don't like hte humans made the reapers theory. It just feels unnecessary, the mass effect universe is crammed full of interesting species, why does everything need to be centred around the humans. It just doesn't fit the IP to me.

Actually it would.  Humans are the center of the games, human spectre, alliance saving council/alliance destroying sovereign, cerberus allying itself with Shepard, human/s saving galaxy.  Yes the other species are important and it is shaping up to look like they will play a more important role in 3, but the entire games is based around humans.

I do agree with the humans creating the reapers as a bad idea, I don't much like that theory either.  I have however come up with a 6th theory..............

Theory 6: Species becomes stagnate improves themselves mechanicaly.

Many, many years ago an ancient species ruled the galaxy.  Having been around for millions of years, their species finally stopped evolving.  Being an arrogant race that created FTL travel, mass relays and the citadel they decided to take on the job of mother nature and evolve themselves.  They created tech and DNA manipulation that furthered their species, over time their species changed enough that they became a hybrid between the organic and inorganic.  Millions of years passed this way until they could no longer function in their current form, and decided to evolve once more on their own...   They began creating massive organic machines to hold their collective consciences, each world responsible for their own platform.  The process complete they shed their mortal forms, however in the rush to achieve perfect evolution and immortality they forgot one major thing, power.  Without a source of power and a way to create more of themselves, they found they had to rely on organic creatures to continue their existance.  So they wait out in dark space, only to awaken periodically to resupply and reproduce.  A sad existance indeed and the price of immortality. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

sympathy4saren wrote...

My personal theory is close to your number 3. Except WE were their creators, long, long ago. We fought them, and they annihilated us. Before they wiped us out, we sent beacons with our genetic dna in it to preserve us in a form of stasis at a level hidden from the Reapers.

Remember how there was evidence that the Protheans meddled with our evolution? They did. They revived us....the species long ago who created the Reapers.

The Reapers aren't dumb. To the absolute contrary. They suspect something is special with humanity. I think it raised some instantaneous and complex mathematical evaluations with them.

I think we created them, and I believe they may be getting suspicious from their own equations and data processing.

 

I hope not,  I don't want humanity to end up being the orignal creators of the reapers,  this kind of stuff has happened before in sci-fi

It's a standard trope of really bad scifi.  Meh.

[Killjoy Cutter]

xassantex wrote...

when you investigate the Derelict reaper, you see that the inside is made for beings approximately our size : staircases, consoles .
But it's not so obvious when you look at the human reaper embryo which also looks much smaller than the typical starship reapers : watch its spine and imagine a body attached to it..not that big.

So were there some humanoid beings inhabiting those ships at a given time ?

If they are a few billion years old, what was the shape of the universe then , half its expansion compared to now ? So if some race created the reapers back then,their home world would lie somewhere near the confines of the universe by now ? or they would have moved out of it ... inside the reapers ... who decided to have them for breakfast eventually. 

The Cerberus team installed all that equipment. 

[Someone With Mass]

They are legion.

[Chuvvy]

Total a-holes.

[CaptainBlackGold]

Someone With Mass wrote...

They are legion.

Hmm; a reference to a New Testament story about a man possessed by many demons ("We are legion for we are many...")

Hmm, an in-game reference to demons...

Demons by nature, are not of this material universe and hostile to man...

Put this in a SciFi framework and we have hyper-dimensional, non-material entities hostile to organic life...

Is this horse dead yet, cause I am getting tired of beating it...

[Valdrane78]

CaptainBlackGold wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

They are legion.

Hmm; a reference to a New Testament story about a man possessed by many demons ("We are legion for we are many...")

Hmm, an in-game reference to demons...

Demons by nature, are not of this material universe and hostile to man...

Put this in a SciFi framework and we have hyper-dimensional, non-material entities hostile to organic life...

Is this horse dead yet, cause I am getting tired of beating it...

Way to many biblical/religious referances in the game already, although I know why and understand it, but there is only so far you should go with something before it becomes redundant and/or boring.  And yup, the horse is dead, leave it be, lol.

[CaptainBlackGold]

[quote]Valdrane78 wrote...

[[/quote]

Way to many biblical/religious referances in the game already, although I know why and understand it, but there is only so far you should go with something before it becomes redundant and/or boring.  And yup, the horse is dead, leave it be, lol.

[/quote]

Honestly, I was fully prepared to just let this one go - but your comment above really does deserve a response.

You complain that there are "way to [sic] many biblical/religious references in the game already..."

Now, my question is, "Why?" Clearly, Bioware has no interest in religion, per se - but even so, they included numerous references that any well educated person would get - after all, Biblical references are an important part of Western cultural heritage and any English lit major can hardly understand anything written before this century without knowing something about the Bible - just because it is so central a part of so much literature.

However, at the same time, due to the secularization of all Western cultures, those references are becoming less and less familiar. Yet, Bioware included a lot of them in the Mass Effect series.

So again, "Why?" My guess, it is foreshadowing - they are leaving hints that the explantion for the Reapers is a little more complex and "deeper" than the "Ancient Machine Race Gone Bad" cliche. I wonder whether they are trying to introduce ideas of being, of the nature of life, intelligence and meaning into their game.

I could write an essay on this - but won't - but the whole "Enkindler" religion of the Hanar is just absolutely brilliant and feeds into this same idea. However, the main point is that while giving us a great action Sci Fi adventure, they are also not afraid to at least introduce some deeper, metaphysical issues.

These references you mentioned above will not go away, just because a lot of people in modern Western cultures find religion an uncomfortable area of discussion - just look at the hate Ashley gets for simply mentioning she believes in a "god" - not necessarily even the Jewish, Christian or Muslim God. She's called a religious fanatic just for expressing a personal belief.

Bioware knew this; they knew that a lot of people have a lot of indifference, contempt or even animosity towards religion. Yet they pepper one of the flagship RPGs with Biblical references.

That says to me that they knew what they were doing - they had a plan. They wanted to throw out some ideas, questions and concepts for their audience to chew over while blasting down Geth, Collectors and Mercenaries. And my guess is that what they were pointing towards is that there is something "out there" - something beyond the realm of physics and chemistry, of matter and energy. Something to bring a little mystery back into the universe...

Now what that "something" is we must wait to see - but if a book, movie or video game keeps throwing up certain images, over and over again, it behooves us to pay attention to them.

Anyways, if I have guessed right, I fully expect a free beer - from someone - somewhere - or something!

[111987]

Wait, what exactly has hinted that the Reaper's are a pan-dimensional force? That we cannot possibly understand them?

Legion says the same thing about organics not being able to comprehend the Geth. It seems more likely to me that Sovereign was saying that; organics cannot comprehend an existence where organic goo (whatever that is) is melded with sophisticated AI programs.

[marshalleck]

CaptainBlackGold wrote...

That says to me that they knew what they were doing - they had a plan.

The religious mind, in a nutshell. 

[Valdrane78]

CaptainBlackGold wrote...

Valdrane78 wrote...

[

Way to many biblical/religious referances in the game already, although I know why and understand it, but there is only so far you should go with something before it becomes redundant and/or boring.  And yup, the horse is dead, leave it be, lol.

I'm not complaining about it, but there such a thing as too much of something.  As a person of faith myself, Shep's line in ME1 sums up my perspective "Never and atheist in a foxhole."  We called 'em fighting holes in the Marine Corps, but it fits.  Anyways, I do think there is too many referances in game, but as I said I understand it and the reasoning behind it, something big is comming of biblical scale so to speak.  But saturating the game with referances is hardly what ME needs, adding anything else would just ditract from what they have added thus far.

But this is completely off topic, so back on topic please.

I've got other theories rambling about in my head, I'll get to them after I get off work.

Modifié par Valdrane78, 18 septembre 2011 - 11:55 .

[Mastone]

I think that humanity created the reapers, the relays and the citadel...not current humanity of course, but an ancient civilization( somewhat like the mayans inca's and what not)
And that we had the same conflict as the quarians and the geth have and almost beat the reapers, but they send some biological weapon to  wipe us out ( aka the cold like in war of the worlds LOL) which it nearly did, save for let's say 60 000 people, after the reapers believed our civilization ended the reapers went to the far regions of space but after let's say 100000 years another organic species reached their full potential, found out about humanity being destroyed by the reapers ( without knowing the full backstory...meaning humanity wanted to wipe out the machines before they got to dangerous...think matrix) and considered the reapers to be a threat and attacked , after a hard battle the reapers just barely won and wiped out this civilization as well..not for gain but for survival.
After this last act of war started by organics the reapers studied "organics" and found that on average a civilization needed 50000 years to reach its apex and therefore been considered a threat to the survival of the reapers, they also found that organics had one quality they as machines didn't have and sorely missed  and that is creativity ( from songs to paintings, to imagining things which leads to new discoveries), they only have logic and they found out that it wasn't enough to maintain their survival and that they needed the creative input of organics and decided to absorb organic civilizations in order to stay ahead of the curve..basic survival.

Humanity in the meantime had forgotten about their past ( the same as we really don''t know much about our origins really) and started  building their civilization again, when they discovered the relays and shepard  defeated the reapers in ME1 the reapers recognised their old enemy again and decide to destroy the one human who could thwart them and killed him in ME2( through the collectors), at the start of ME3 the reapers find out that there is something hidden on earth which could drive out the reapers from known space or at least have vital knowledge about their origins and how they are build at the end of the game shepard get's this info and you get a mission somewhat the same as the omega 4 relay ( one with a deadline), by guess it recquires a sacrifice in the end( a bit like the story of jezus, one man dying to save the eniter galaxy/humanity), if you're a Paragon you do it yourself, if you are a renegade you order Vega to do it( since he is basically the same as you), if you are neutral/sole survivor, Vega willingly unasked by you sacrifices himself.

It's just a guess though

Edit:
It would be fun if the illusive man redeems himself and that he gives you the info which triggers the final mission

Modifié par Mastone, 18 septembre 2011 - 01:04 .

[Azbeszt]

Mastone wrote...

I think that humanity created the reapers, the relays and the citadel...not current humanity of course, but an ancient civilization( somewhat like the mayans inca's and what not)
And that we had the same conflict as the quarians and the geth have and almost beat the reapers, but they send some biological weapon to  wipe us out ( aka the cold like in war of the worlds LOL) which it nearly did, save for let's say 60 000 people, after the reapers believed our civilization ended the reapers went to the far regions of space but after let's say 100000 years another organic species reached their full potential, found out about humanity being destroyed by the reapers ( without knowing the full backstory...meaning humanity wanted to wipe out the machines before they got to dangerous...think matrix) and considered the reapers to be a threat and attacked , after a hard battle the reapers just barely won and wiped out this civilization as well..not for gain but for survival.
After this last act of war started by organics the reapers studied "organics" and found that on average a civilization needed 50000 years to reach its apex and therefore been considered a threat to the survival of the reapers, they also found that organics had one quality they as machines didn't have and sorely missed  and that is creativity ( from songs to paintings, to imagining things which leads to new discoveries), they only have logic and they found out that it wasn't enough to maintain their survival and that they needed the creative input of organics and decided to absorb organic civilizations in order to stay ahead of the curve..basic survival.

Humanity in the meantime had forgotten about their past ( the same as we really don''t know much about our origins really) and started  building their civilization again, when they discovered the relays and shepard  defeated the reapers in ME1 the reapers recognised their old enemy again and decide to destroy the one human who could thwart them and killed him in ME2( through the collectors), at the start of ME3 the reapers find out that there is something hidden on earth which could drive out the reapers from known space or at least have vital knowledge about their origins and how they are build at the end of the game shepard get's this info and you get a mission somewhat the same as the omega 4 relay ( one with a deadline), by guess it recquires a sacrifice in the end( a bit like the story of jezus, one man dying to save the eniter galaxy/humanity), if you're a Paragon you do it yourself, if you are a renegade you order Vega to do it( since he is basically the same as you), if you are neutral/sole survivor, Vega willingly unasked by you sacrifices himself.

It's just a guess though

I think not.

[Mastone]

Azbeszt wrote...

Mastone wrote...

I think that humanity created the reapers, the relays and the citadel...not current humanity of course, but an ancient civilization( somewhat like the mayans inca's and what not)
And that we had the same conflict as the quarians and the geth have and almost beat the reapers, but they send some biological weapon to  wipe us out ( aka the cold like in war of the worlds LOL) which it nearly did, save for let's say 60 000 people, after the reapers believed our civilization ended the reapers went to the far regions of space but after let's say 100000 years another organic species reached their full potential, found out about humanity being destroyed by the reapers ( without knowing the full backstory...meaning humanity wanted to wipe out the machines before they got to dangerous...think matrix) and considered the reapers to be a threat and attacked , after a hard battle the reapers just barely won and wiped out this civilization as well..not for gain but for survival.
After this last act of war started by organics the reapers studied "organics" and found that on average a civilization needed 50000 years to reach its apex and therefore been considered a threat to the survival of the reapers, they also found that organics had one quality they as machines didn't have and sorely missed  and that is creativity ( from songs to paintings, to imagining things which leads to new discoveries), they only have logic and they found out that it wasn't enough to maintain their survival and that they needed the creative input of organics and decided to absorb organic civilizations in order to stay ahead of the curve..basic survival.

Humanity in the meantime had forgotten about their past ( the same as we really don''t know much about our origins really) and started  building their civilization again, when they discovered the relays and shepard  defeated the reapers in ME1 the reapers recognised their old enemy again and decide to destroy the one human who could thwart them and killed him in ME2( through the collectors), at the start of ME3 the reapers find out that there is something hidden on earth which could drive out the reapers from known space or at least have vital knowledge about their origins and how they are build at the end of the game shepard get's this info and you get a mission somewhat the same as the omega 4 relay ( one with a deadline), by guess it recquires a sacrifice in the end( a bit like the story of jezus, one man dying to save the eniter galaxy/humanity), if you're a Paragon you do it yourself, if you are a renegade you order Vega to do it( since he is basically the same as you), if you are neutral/sole survivor, Vega willingly unasked by you sacrifices himself.

It's just a guess though

I think not.

Aside from the fact that you may very well be right, why don't you think this is a possibility, it would be refreshing to see some nuance in the game( meaning mankind isn't this holy race and the reapers aren't all tha t evil)