89415 réponses à ce sujet

[Avilia]

Oooh! Just got my hard copy calendar. Curse being on the bus omw to work. Won't be able to look at it until tonight /grumble

Edit - gah ToP - I'm at work and can't hunt up anything good without those IT people chasing me around the building with sticks, so:

Its sort of OT with the current discussion:

Modifié par Avilia, 01 septembre 2011 - 11:10 .

[Monica21]

I think I want to clarify my comments about Cullen/Amell and a mage PC romance.

I didn't mean that Cullen had never recovered from whatever attachment he felt to Amell, I meant that a lot of players have attached their Amells to Cullen. Does that make sense? I don't think it would be difficult to romance him or that Cullen falls asleep every night dreaming of her. I do think that she has quite a bit of significance to him, if only because she either died in the Tower or went off and killed an Archdemon. Anything now is likely just fondness or, "Was I really that foolish?"

As for a mage/Cullen romance, there is the, "mages aren't people" line. The idea of him falling in love with a mage is really intriguing to me because it humanizes them. You can't fall in love with something that you inherently believe is a product of sin.

[Bekkael]

Monica21 wrote...

I think I want to clarify my comments about Cullen/Amell and a mage PC romance.

I didn't mean that Cullen had never recovered from whatever attachment he felt to Amell, I meant that a lot of players have attached their Amells to Cullen. Does that make sense? I don't think it would be difficult to romance him or that Cullen falls asleep every night dreaming of her. I do think that she has quite a bit of significance to him, if only because she either died in the Tower or went off and killed an Archdemon. Anything now is likely just fondness or, "Was I really that foolish?"

As for a mage/Cullen romance, there is the, "mages aren't people" line. The idea of him falling in love with a mage is really intriguing to me because it humanizes them. You can't fall in love with something that you inherently believe is a product of sin.

I agree with you.

I'm also doing my bit to turn around his way of thinking and dealing directly with the "mages aren't people" comment in fan fiction, since it's impossible to adequately address that with him in DA2. <_<

If we ever get him as a companion in future, I hope the PC can influence him to be a little more open-minded toward mages.

[Avilia]

The 'mages aren't people' thing is interesting I think. I usually take it as a whole with his later remark about weapons, but that could be my Cullen bias showing.

Thinking about it now - if you're an at all reasonable person the idea of locking your fellow man up for no better reason than they're possibly going to be dangerous at some point, well, its just wrong. You'd have to find some way to justify it to yourself.

So, 'mages aren't people' - the second you no longer believe that, you'd start questioning everything. I hate using real world examples for in game events (that rarely ends well) but in this case I'm thinking particularly about societies where one section, due to race/belief/religion, is considered 'lesser' because its perceived that their difference makes them 'non-human'.

Just my quick thoughts on it (as usual caveats that its imho and am not intending/wanting to cause controversy).

[Monica21]

Avilia wrote...

The 'mages aren't people' thing is interesting I think. I usually take it as a whole with his later remark about weapons, but that could be my Cullen bias showing.

Thinking about it now - if you're an at all reasonable person the idea of locking your fellow man up for no better reason than they're possibly going to be dangerous at some point, well, its just wrong. You'd have to find some way to justify it to yourself.

So, 'mages aren't people' - the second you no longer believe that, you'd start questioning everything. I hate using real world examples for in game events (that rarely ends well) but in this case I'm thinking particularly about societies where one section, due to race/belief/religion, is considered 'lesser' because its perceived that their difference makes them 'non-human'.

Just my quick thoughts on it (as usual caveats that its imho and am not intending/wanting to cause controversy).

I don't think it's controversial, but I do think he uses Andraste and the Chantry to justify it. He's obviously not okay with the RoA and he uses Ferelden as an example of a time when it really was justified. Reasonable people do a lot of unreasonable things in the name of religion.

The thing with Cullen is that he really does seem to be starting to question. Once you start, then the whole house of cards collapses. I hope they don't leave him in undetermined state because I don't think his story is over and I think his story can easily be tied into the mage/templar conflict.

[Avilia]

Monica21 wrote...

Avilia wrote...

The 'mages aren't people' thing is interesting I think. I usually take it as a whole with his later remark about weapons, but that could be my Cullen bias showing.

Thinking about it now - if you're an at all reasonable person the idea of locking your fellow man up for no better reason than they're possibly going to be dangerous at some point, well, its just wrong. You'd have to find some way to justify it to yourself.

So, 'mages aren't people' - the second you no longer believe that, you'd start questioning everything. I hate using real world examples for in game events (that rarely ends well) but in this case I'm thinking particularly about societies where one section, due to race/belief/religion, is considered 'lesser' because its perceived that their difference makes them 'non-human'.

Just my quick thoughts on it (as usual caveats that its imho and am not intending/wanting to cause controversy).

I don't think it's controversial, but I do think he uses Andraste and the Chantry to justify it. He's obviously not okay with the RoA and he uses Ferelden as an example of a time when it really was justified. Reasonable people do a lot of unreasonable things in the name of religion.

The thing with Cullen is that he really does seem to be starting to question. Once you start, then the whole house of cards collapses. I hope they don't leave him in undetermined state because I don't think his story is over and I think his story can easily be tied into the mage/templar conflict.

Very much so.  His arc isn't complete to me.  I'm not sure if Bioware intended for him to be the "chantry mouthpiece" or if his presence is to put his more personal views across.   I believe some of the inaction he shows in Act 3 is due to the demands of plot .  However, I also believe that he isn't the type for conspiracies a'la Thrask and what'ser'name (lol mental blank on her name).  I think if he'd been involved he'd have marched into Meredith's office and told her to stand down.  Woops there goes Act 3

The end of Act 3 is to me the start of the next phase of Cullen's 'arc'.  What happens to him after Act 3 and during the war would be interesting to know.  (I hope Bioware agrees with me.) 

I'd love to see him used as a reflection for what's happening on the larger stage.  Or just see him really, preferably for the whole game, in party, with the potential for, stuff...no I'm not asking for too much I think

Modifié par Avilia, 02 septembre 2011 - 03:08 .

[Monica21]

RagingCyclone wrote...

silentstephi, I'll admit I am on my fifth PT, and in the previous four Anders has not survived. I'm not sure on my current, though. Depends on what this Hawke's reaction will be, he's a kind of middle-of-the-road guy.

I didn't kill him my first playthrough, but I think the only time I won't be killing him is if I'm romancing him. He's obviously tortured and obviously did A Very Bad Thing. I'm actually going to try to rival him and get him to side with me against the mages, so we'll see how that works out.

[Avilia]

Monica21 wrote...

RagingCyclone wrote...

silentstephi, I'll admit I am on my fifth PT, and in the previous four Anders has not survived. I'm not sure on my current, though. Depends on what this Hawke's reaction will be, he's a kind of middle-of-the-road guy.

I didn't kill him my first playthrough, but I think the only time I won't be killing him is if I'm romancing him. He's obviously tortured and obviously did A Very Bad Thing. I'm actually going to try to rival him and get him to side with me against the mages, so we'll see how that works out.

Please let us know if that works!  I'm keen to give that a try too.

[Monica21]

Avilia wrote...
Very much so.  His arc isn't complete to me.  I'm not sure if Bioware intended for him to be the "chantry mouthpiece" or if his presence is to put his more personal views across.   I believe some of the inaction he shows in Act 3 is due to the demands of plot .  However, I also believe that he isn't the type for conspiracies a'la Thrask and what'ser'name (lol mental blank on her name).  I think if he'd been involved he'd have marched into Meredith's office and told her to stand down.  Woops there goes Act 3

The end of Act 3 is to me the start of the next phase of Cullen's 'arc'.  What happens to him after Act 3 and during the war would be interesting to know.  (I hope Bioware agrees with me.) 

I'd love to see him used as a reflection for what's happening on the larger stage.  Or just see him really, preferably for the whole game, in party, with the potential for, stuff...no I'm not asking for too much I think

Yep. Bioware started his story arc simply by putting him in the Gallows. They better not be finished with it! 

[Galagraphia]

Sorry to interrupt, but can you guys collect your favourite Cullen banners and give me the links? I want to attach them to the front page. Thank you.

[Avilia]

Will do when I get home Gala

[silentstephi]

Since I mentioned it... ummm here's the thing I mentioned before. (for those sensitive to that sort of thing, it's porn, it's a link to the kinkmeme on lj)

Umm, yea. Soooo now I'm shipping the character like whoa.

Oh, and Monica21, I get what you're saying. I actually didn't remember the whole 'mages aren't people' thing... Bad fan. -.-
But I like to think that a lot of what the companions or NPCs isn't set in stone. Actions speak louder than words. And call it bias but no one is unable to change their way of thinking. (that's my story and I'm sticking to it.)

Edit: had to fix link

Modifié par silentstephi, 02 septembre 2011 - 04:20 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Someone else explained it earlier, but the reason I'd have trouble getting over the Cullen and Amell (or Surana) thing isn't that I think that all Cullens in all universes are still obsessed with their respective Amells... heck, in some universes, Amell was a dude and Cullen never had a crush on anyone.

It's not that I think their story is unbreakable canon, rather I feel that their story potential is wicked high, with great conflict and plot hooks... plus the role reversal when she comes and rescues him, being both his torment and his salvation, and also being the knight in shining armor for a templar... the imagery is delicious, and you'd have to simmer up an even sweeter treat for me to get over it.

My favorite Amell/CUllen headcanon has them as two people separated by time and space and conflict, meeting for brief interludes in their respective adventures. I'd imagine they met again after Origins (while he was on his little "get sane" sabbatical), again sometime between Act 2 and Act 3, and finally after DA2. Each time she asks him to go with her, each time he says no, they have a few stolen moments (hours, days) and then they part.

I don't normally go for stories about star-crossed lovers, because most of the times the stars that cross them are retarded. Capulets and Montagues, stop being idiots! You too, Heathcliff and Catherine. Your stars are stupid and you are also stupid. But Cullen and Amell are the first star-crossed lovers who I actually grok. I understand why he can't go with her and why she can't stay with him. It's painful and he's stubborn and she's wild but I get it. So basically, the idea of Cullen and Amell has provided me with some very unique emotional experiences, and has managed to make me like a trope I normally despise. Points to them for that.

I'm not saying there's no scenario that could change my mind. This probably won't happen for a number of really good reasons, but I'd love it if DA3 was all about the new prophet of the Maker... basically your PC would be Life of Brian-ing it up, either seeking recognition from the mainstream Chantry or seeking to found your own sect, depending on what you choose. Cullen following someone whose primary purpose is reforming (or reinforcing) conventional Andrasteism? I'd buy that for a sovereign.

I'd like to note that I had a problem with the "get over your past" thing with Anders, too, and it was a problem I can see recurring with Cullen. The problem was this: honestly, Hawke doesn't seem to do as much for Anders as a Warden is capable of doing. The Warden can directly stand up for Anders against Templars, grant him his freedom, and even give him Pounce. I never felt like Hawke "got" Anders the same way my Warden did... largely because Hawke is much more of a "set" character than the Warden was. My Warden would have been completely supportive of the Chantry going up (she's Dalish, and sees the Chantry as a very bad thing, in general), for instance. She would have said "Yeah this is bad, but so was the exalted march on the dales. On a list of history's greatest monsters, you don't even make the top ten."  There are so many things that the Warden was able to do vis a vis Justice as well. I still love Anders' DA2 romance, but Hawke's inability to actually seriously try to help him  made the Hawke/Andersmance less satisfying than it might have been otherwise. At this point, I don't know who I see Anders with. I'm kind of leaning towards having one of my Fenris-mancing Hawkes as my canon, and headcanoning that Anders goes off to find Mahariel (or another of my Wardens), who can try to fix his brain with the power of being competent and reasonable. Also, kitties. (This is why I pretty much never murderknife him or side with the Templars).

As for Cullen's "mages aren't human" line, you can fall in love with something you don't consider human... I mean I fell in love with Garrus! Semantics! Also, in my mind Anders isn't human anymore either, not really. But he's non-human in an awesome way. Humanity is overrated.

[Monica21]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
As for Cullen's "mages aren't human" line, you can fall in love with something you don't consider human... I mean I fell in love with Garrus! Semantics! Also, in my mind Anders isn't human anymore either, not really. But he's non-human in an awesome way. Humanity is overrated.

Well, I'm not saying that he's denying that they're human; I'm pretty sure he believes they are. I'm saying that he's purposely de-humanizing them by saying, "they aren't people, they're weapons." It makes it easier to carry out a legitimate RoA when you see that the mage you saw laughing yesterday is an abomination today. He can see them as things that are useful but can also be very dangerous.

I almost never play mages, but I can see very different dialogues with a mage/Cullen romance opposed to any other, and I think the dialogues could be potentially much more satisfying.

[RagingCyclone]

Monica21 wrote...

RagingCyclone wrote...

silentstephi, I'll admit I am on my fifth PT, and in the previous four Anders has not survived. I'm not sure on my current, though. Depends on what this Hawke's reaction will be, he's a kind of middle-of-the-road guy.

I didn't kill him my first playthrough, but I think the only time I won't be killing him is if I'm romancing him. He's obviously tortured and obviously did A Very Bad Thing. I'm actually going to try to rival him and get him to side with me against the mages, so we'll see how that works out.

I think this time my Hawke is more leaning towards sparing him. He's romancing Merrill, and I think her opinion will matter to him when the time comes. The others I'll post who and why they killed Anders:

Jacen/rogue: romanced Merrill, sided with the mages, Bethany is a Circle mage...he killed Anders because he felt that by blowing up the chantry Anders had signed Bethany's death warrant. Don't mess with family.

Galen/mage: romanced Izzy, sided with Templars, Carver is a Templar...Never really agreed with Orsino and his policies, didn't agree with Meredith, liked Cullen...killed Anders because destroyed a possible peace he as a mage was trying to foster depsite Orsino and Meredith. Again don't mess with family.

Rochelle/warrior: romanced Fenris, Bethany died in Deep Roads, sided with Templars...tried helping mages throughout the game even after Bethany dies mostly because she was used to doing so her entire life.  Act 3 mages start turning on her, even ones she tried to help (Gracein particular)...killed Anders because it was basically the last straw for her and she felt betrayed by mages...she tried to help and they ended up turning on her.

Kailea/rogue: romanced Sebastian, Bethany is Grey Warden, sided with mages.  pretty easy here to see why she killed Anders, but still had sympathy for mages, had no trouble getting Sebastian to side with her after Anders was dead.

Modifié par RagingCyclone, 02 septembre 2011 - 06:00 .

[RagingCyclone]

Avilia, funny thing about that Act 3 quest with Thrask and Grace, he does that "mages are weapons" in Act 1, and I had the impression he was still the "kill all blood mages" like he was in Origins. But my current Nathan run when asked to show mercy to the surviving mages in that quest he relents and has them locked in the tower under watch which I found a big indication that his plot arc was changing like you mention for Act 3. There's something that I find is hinted but not explained where his views on mages may have changed.

[Avilia]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I don't normally go for stories about star-crossed lovers, because most of the times the stars that cross them are retarded. Capulets and Montagues, stop being idiots! You too, Heathcliff and Catherine. Your stars are stupid and you are also stupid.

[snipped for clarity - apologies]

I thought this was just me!  I've had arguments about this.  "Romeo and Juliet isn't romantic!  Its stupid!  Leave town you fools!" lol.  Sorry I just wanted to say that...

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Monica21 wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
As for Cullen's "mages aren't human" line, you can fall in love with something you don't consider human... I mean I fell in love with Garrus! Semantics! Also, in my mind Anders isn't human anymore either, not really. But he's non-human in an awesome way. Humanity is overrated.

Well, I'm not saying that he's denying that they're human; I'm pretty sure he believes they are. I'm saying that he's purposely de-humanizing them by saying, "they aren't people, they're weapons." It makes it easier to carry out a legitimate RoA when you see that the mage you saw laughing yesterday is an abomination today. He can see them as things that are useful but can also be very dangerous.

I almost never play mages, but I can see very different dialogues with a mage/Cullen romance opposed to any other, and I think the dialogues could be potentially much more satisfying.

Oh sure. A long time ago in one of the many, many, many Chantry-based arguments I've gotten into, I posted a list of things that are considered "warning signs that they're heading for a genocide," according to some official political and humanitarian organization. One of those things is "people claim another group is not human." There are a bunch of other things the Chantry does that are known warning signs for very bad things. I could quote all this stuff more accurately but then I'd have to go all serious face and I'm sure everyone gets the point anyway. The "they aren't human" thing is very scary, and makes me want to sit Cullen down somewhere and have a long talk with him about history. As someone on tumblr said "Oh Cullen ... you are a sweet little baby who is sometimes an ***hole." 

My "humanity is overrated" comment was more my personal view on the matter. I tend to go for monsters and creatures and immortals and aliens and the like. For me, sentient inhumanity is actually a good thing... why wouldn't you want to date the guy who is a whole new form of life?

One of the things I worry about in regards to a Cullen LI (something I honestly do think has a decent chance of happening... he's popular, he's alive in all games, he's definitely returning in some way, etc) is the necessity of genericizing the story so that all the potential DA3 protagonists... let's call 'em "Doves"... can have a romance with him. One of the things I enjoy so much about Cullen and Amell is how... specific it is, and inherently twisty. If, as someone suggested before, you hook Cullen up with a like-minded Warrior lass, where is the conflict? The pathos? The interest? Why would he have to change and grow at all?  And if the like-minded-warrior-lass romance ends up as relatively simple and generic, well, how will the other possible Doves differ?  So far we've never had more than two variations on a given romance, so there's no real room for interesting specificity there. I also hope they don't use the friendship/rivalry system exactly. If I'm playing a mage-favoring character, I don't want to be brow-beating Cullen, I want to be gently talking with him, but I fear we won't be given the option. It's like with Fen...  Fen, I want to be your friend, but you are like crazy prejudiced right now, and that's not cool, yo. I wish you could use the power of friendship to get Fen to reconsider his hatred of mages, rather than just being pretty much a total dick to him like... a lot of the time.

[Avilia]

RagingCyclone wrote...

Avilia, funny thing about that Act 3 quest with Thrask and Grace, he does that "mages are weapons" in Act 1, and I had the impression he was still the "kill all blood mages" like he was in Origins. But my current Nathan run when asked to show mercy to the surviving mages in that quest he relents and has them locked in the tower under watch which I found a big indication that his plot arc was changing like you mention for Act 3. There's something that I find is hinted but not explained where his views on mages may have changed.

Clicking on Cullen in the Gallows when he doesn't have dialogue can be enlightening.  I've only recently started doing this. (Apologies if you do this already)

I'm not sure how much it clears up the mystery of his motivations but he does have some interesting things to say.

For instance - Act 1 as a rogue/warrior Hawke (paraphrased):

"I've been hearing some disturbing things about your sister Hawke, I hope they're not true"

That's the only one I can remember right now, but I wonder how many of his ambient dialogue gives clues about his state of mind over the course of the game.  I do remember he has a line about Feynriel in Act 2 if you've sent him to the Circle - he expresses his concern for 'the lad's' state of mind (I think).

I will be clicking on him so much this run that he'll have the guard after my Hawke.  I'm hoping there hidden gems I've missed through my not wanting to annoy him too much 

[StellaSmooth]

Bekkael wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

I think I want to clarify my comments about Cullen/Amell and a mage PC romance.

I didn't mean that Cullen had never recovered from whatever attachment he felt to Amell, I meant that a lot of players have attached their Amells to Cullen. Does that make sense? I don't think it would be difficult to romance him or that Cullen falls asleep every night dreaming of her. I do think that she has quite a bit of significance to him, if only because she either died in the Tower or went off and killed an Archdemon. Anything now is likely just fondness or, "Was I really that foolish?"

As for a mage/Cullen romance, there is the, "mages aren't people" line. The idea of him falling in love with a mage is really intriguing to me because it humanizes them. You can't fall in love with something that you inherently believe is a product of sin.

I agree with you.

I'm also doing my bit to turn around his way of thinking and dealing directly with the "mages aren't people" comment in fan fiction, since it's impossible to adequately address that with him in DA2. <_<

If we ever get him as a companion in future, I hope the PC can influence him to be a little more open-minded toward mages.

Thank the maker for that!  He shall see the light eventually...I feel it in my bones!

[StellaSmooth]

Also, HI everyone!! I've been gone for a while since I'm a total slacker but I'm pretty excited to be back. WOOO! So happy to see a new thread going all roomy and happy for the Cullen of Awesome! Great job getting it all going Galagraphia (also, your banner is FABULOUS! minty awesomeness, please!)  Hope that everyone is well and I'm glad to see some familiar faces about!

stella

[Avilia]

 Another wallpaper if anyone wants it 

[Galagraphia]

@Avilia, you know, I love you so much that it starts to be disturbing XD For banners, wallpapers, videos and for your opinion on Romeo and Juliet I felt the same way since I was 12 and read it for the first time.

@StellaSmooth, that banner is Avilia's work, she makes the best Cullen stuff for our thread

I personally will always ship Cullen with Amell (and my dead Surana-who-never-loved-him). Just because it's so hopeless and unhealthy and ****ed up in so many ways. And because I don't romance anyone on my canon playthrough and my PCs fall in love with a character nobody loves:) So far they were: Cullen in Origins, Anders in Awakening, Varric in DA2. I'm sure there will be someone for me in DA3

*goes to write an ending for Obsession*

[Avilia]

@Gala hehe /blush.

I have the same the problem with liking the non-romanceable chars (Cullen/Nate/Cullen&Nate). Doesn't stop my girls getting cosy with someone though - the hussies ;-)

*lurks around waiting to pounce on the ending to Obsession.*

[RagingCyclone]

Avilia, a lot of Cullen's ambient dialogue in the Gallows will also depend on when you talk to him and what you have been doing in the quests. At one point if you talk to him after helping a Templar, he likes the direction you are taking and that you are a friend to Templars, but the next quest can be helping mages and he will question you about where your loyalties lie. I found that very interesting when I came across them.