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[LolaLei]

Dunquixote: So if we do get Cullen as a love interest in DA3 will you still romance him even if the new protagonist isn't the Warden? You coul always recreate your Warden's appearance with the new character and pretend it's her... Of course that could present problems if your character was an Elf or Dwarf if we can't pick our race again lol.

[R2s Muse]

New pic for a new page... a suffering DA:O Cullen ... pobrecito!

Cullen and Desire Demon by the ever talented Aimo

Modifié par R2s Muse, 30 avril 2012 - 11:12 .

[Dunquixote]

R2s Muse wrote...

Dunquixote wrote...

How did you like the Calling, R2?  Have you read the Stolen Throne yet? 

Ah, I liked it. Thanks for asking! The ending made up for some of the slower parts, IMHO. Very, very interesting, in terms of lore.  It casts a tantalizing new light on the Fifth Blight. And, I see now why there are so many Maric fangirls. He's like... the matured, hot-dad version of Alistair. LOL 

Haven't read Stolen Throne yet. I've been reading them in logic-defying reverse chronological order. LOL Guess I'll have to get that one next.

You started them yet?

I just got back from the bookstore (I had to go bra shopping with my mom <.<, but I have Chipolte burritos for dinner yum); and I found all three books.  I just started the Calling.

LolaLei wrote...

Dunquixote: So if we do get Cullen as a
love interest in DA3 will you still romance him even if the new
protagonist isn't the Warden? You coul always recreate your Warden's
appearance with the new character and pretend it's her... Of course that
could present problems if your character was an Elf or Dwarf if we
can't pick our race again lol.

I know.  I'll have to play the game one time and see how well I can connect with the character before I decide. lol

[Dunquixote]

okay. I might read Asunder after I'm done with the Calling.

[VampOrchid]

Sadly I haven't read any novels or comics...i know...boooo

[VampOrchid]

OMG so tired, just finished making a wack load of bookmarks and cards. I can't wait to have my art supplies in order. That will mean more time for writing and drawing fan stuff. Squea!

[R2s Muse]

Jasmine96 wrote...

Oh you have to read the Stolen Throne! It's probably my favorite (next to Asunder) You'll fall in love with Maric in that story even Loghain. Loghain was really amazing in it, it makes killing him in the landsmeet so much harder now, even though he does a ****ty thing in the story as well. You've just got to read it though, Gaider did a really good job on it!

Ah, good to know! I'd heard elsewhere the books got better over time.... suggesting Stolen Throne wouldn't be so great. But indeed, Loghain already seemed quite interesting from his brief bromance scenes with Maric in the Calling. 
Cool!

Modifié par R2s Muse, 01 mai 2012 - 03:17 .

[vieralynn]

R2s Muse wrote...

First, welcome, welcome, vieralynn! Pull up a chair and post your lovely Cullens anytime!

And, on the Cullen haters, I don't really want to go there, except to remind that the one sort of poster-child speech against the mages in DA2 was uttered by dear Act 1 PTSD!Cullen, with all that "you can't treat mages like people" rhetoric. Despite having some good points, he's so dogmatic at that point that I think he ultimately pushes peoples buttons on the issue. Then, his epiphany at the end is often seen as flip-flopping. :shrug: I think it's really a shame that you only see the "that's what being a templar is about" speech if  you're already pro-templar, which I'd wager is played less often than pro-mage. 

Thanks for the welcome.   I'll be sure to share any photoshopped Cullen screencaps or Cullen art worthy of our viewing. 

As for the Cullen haters -- haha -- that's part of the reason I remained at the edges of this fandom for so long. I found him fascinating right from the start of DA:O (f!Surana origin first time through) and he became even more fascinating as a character study in DA2. But, I like subtle, layered characters. 


I've been slowly working on a lengthy essay that is literary analysis of Cullen's complete set of lines, his characterization, and his story arc. The essay's main points in summary are:


(1) Cullen goes from trusting mages (mage origin story), to trusting no one (broken circle quest), to putting all of this trust in the templar order (DA2's Act 1 & 2), to not knowing who to trust (DA2 Act 3), to trusting himself and Hawke (final straw quest). On the happiness-to-misery index, his arc is a falling line in DA:O (starts happy that the f!mage passed her harrowing, ends in shame and trauma) and, in DA2, a bottomed-out line that slowly rises. This is a classic "fall and rise" plot arc--a story about a horrible event that changes someone and their subsequent change/recovery. 


(2) Critical components of Cullen's story arc are tucked away in the f!mage origin story and f!mage warden encounter in the Broken Circle quest *and* in the templar ending of DA2. Without seeing those elements, his story arc starts at the bottom (non-mage warden during broken circle quest followed by the PTSD-driven Wilmod Camp scene+"mages cannot be treated like people, they are not like you and me" line in DA2) and slowly meanders up to a "doing too little, too late" ending. Likewise, since Cullen is a minor character, the audience isn't focused on his plot arc. Thus, it is very easy to see him as a one-note mage-hater because he has little chance to prove otherwise.


(3) Parts of Cullen's characterization are subtle and layered. Cullen's lines, particularly when combined with his actions, lend themselves to multiple readings. A flat reading construes his fear of mages as outright hatred or dehumanization of mages; a nuanced reading emphasizes the many different conflicts that Cullen himself is attempting to negotiation throughout DA:O and DA2 (e.g., his ability to not only trust the mage!warden and mage!Hawke, but even to directly identify himself with these two mages as shown through his use of "us together" pronouns--mine & yours, you & me). So, when one misses the nuanced reading of his characterization, his inner conflict isn't put into full perspective (the good & trusting person versus the traumatized person), again, he can easily be read as a one-note mage-hater who does too little, too late. Indeed, the act of working through his conflict is why he doesn't do anything until DA2's Act 3. (which is the classic fall and rise plot arc).


The essay, when complete, will no doubt be in the 10k-15k word range. I have no interest in "converting" the Cullen haters. Instead, I was merely interested in understanding why his story fascinated me but when talking to other friends who felt "Meh? I don't exactly understand Cullen but I want to because clearly I missed something," I felt compelled to write something logical and thoughtful, complete with diagrams and his entire script.
Obviously, here on this thread, all of this is just preaching to the choir. :innocent:

...  But, I have a little pet theory on why some people will always remain Cullen haters (just as some people will always remain Anders haters, or Fenris haters, or so on). Even when Cullen's story is clear to a person, in the end we viewers/players need to act as judges.  

Does the viewer/player live in a very punitive and vengeful society or culture, or subscribe to such beliefs? Do they personally believe that all crimes must be paid for and that blame must always be placed on someone? Do they believe that punishment is a necessary precursor for redemption? A character like Cullen leaves us with many unanswered questions about his culpability, especially since we know little about what he did or supported inside the walls of the Gallows. At the very least, he was a cog in an oppressive machine. That alone is fuel for some people's hatred.

[Dwarva]

I assume you guys all own this tshirt:

http://www.spreadshi...-C4408A18035208

xD

[ladyshamen]

Dang! I missed out again! Trying to get caught up. Staar, I want that shirt:)

[VampOrchid]

vieralynn wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

First, welcome, welcome, vieralynn! Pull up a chair and post your lovely Cullens anytime!

And, on the Cullen haters, I don't really want to go there, except to remind that the one sort of poster-child speech against the mages in DA2 was uttered by dear Act 1 PTSD!Cullen, with all that "you can't treat mages like people" rhetoric. Despite having some good points, he's so dogmatic at that point that I think he ultimately pushes peoples buttons on the issue. Then, his epiphany at the end is often seen as flip-flopping. :shrug: I think it's really a shame that you only see the "that's what being a templar is about" speech if  you're already pro-templar, which I'd wager is played less often than pro-mage. 

Thanks for the welcome.   I'll be sure to share any photoshopped Cullen screencaps or Cullen art worthy of our viewing. 

As for the Cullen haters -- haha -- that's part of the reason I remained at the edges of this fandom for so long. I found him fascinating right from the start of DA:O (f!Surana origin first time through) and he became even more fascinating as a character study in DA2. But, I like subtle, layered characters. 


I've been slowly working on a lengthy essay that is literary analysis of Cullen's complete set of lines, his characterization, and his story arc. The essay's main points in summary are:


(1) Cullen goes from trusting mages (mage origin story), to trusting no one (broken circle quest), to putting all of this trust in the templar order (DA2's Act 1 & 2), to not knowing who to trust (DA2 Act 3), to trusting himself and Hawke (final straw quest). On the happiness-to-misery index, his arc is a falling line in DA:O (starts happy that the f!mage passed her harrowing, ends in shame and trauma) and, in DA2, a bottomed-out line that slowly rises. This is a classic "fall and rise" plot arc--a story about a horrible event that changes someone and their subsequent change/recovery. 


(2) Critical components of Cullen's story arc are tucked away in the f!mage origin story and f!mage warden encounter in the Broken Circle quest *and* in the templar ending of DA2. Without seeing those elements, his story arc starts at the bottom (non-mage warden during broken circle quest followed by the PTSD-driven Wilmod Camp scene+"mages cannot be treated like people, they are not like you and me" line in DA2) and slowly meanders up to a "doing too little, too late" ending. Likewise, since Cullen is a minor character, the audience isn't focused on his plot arc. Thus, it is very easy to see him as a one-note mage-hater because he has little chance to prove otherwise.


(3) Parts of Cullen's characterization are subtle and layered. Cullen's lines, particularly when combined with his actions, lend themselves to multiple readings. A flat reading construes his fear of mages as outright hatred or dehumanization of mages; a nuanced reading emphasizes the many different conflicts that Cullen himself is attempting to negotiation throughout DA:O and DA2 (e.g., his ability to not only trust the mage!warden and mage!Hawke, but even to directly identify himself with these two mages as shown through his use of "us together" pronouns--mine & yours, you & me). So, when one misses the nuanced reading of his characterization, his inner conflict isn't put into full perspective (the good & trusting person versus the traumatized person), again, he can easily be read as a one-note mage-hater who does too little, too late. Indeed, the act of working through his conflict is why he doesn't do anything until DA2's Act 3. (which is the classic fall and rise plot arc).


The essay, when complete, will no doubt be in the 10k-15k word range. I have no interest in "converting" the Cullen haters. Instead, I was merely interested in understanding why his story fascinated me but when talking to other friends who felt "Meh? I don't exactly understand Cullen but I want to because clearly I missed something," I felt compelled to write something logical and thoughtful, complete with diagrams and his entire script.
Obviously, here on this thread, all of this is just preaching to the choir. :innocent:

...  But, I have a little pet theory on why some people will always remain Cullen haters (just as some people will always remain Anders haters, or Fenris haters, or so on). Even when Cullen's story is clear to a person, in the end we viewers/players need to act as judges.  

Does the viewer/player live in a very punitive and vengeful society or culture, or subscribe to such beliefs? Do they personally believe that all crimes must be paid for and that blame must always be placed on someone? Do they believe that punishment is a necessary precursor for redemption? A character like Cullen leaves us with many unanswered questions about his culpability, especially since we know little about what he did or supported inside the walls of the Gallows. At the very least, he was a cog in an oppressive machine. That alone is fuel for some people's hatred.

I hope you will post a link or something to read it when you are done!! and you should totally post it in the LI companion wish list for DA3 as a reason why he should be a companion!

[R2s Muse]

Staarbux wrote...

I assume you guys all own this tshirt:

http://www.spreadshi...-C4408A18035208

xD

LOL awesome. Here's another, that's always been one of my faves:

200x200http://i1.cpcache.com/product_zoom/427053508/cullen_templars_dont_sparkl_tshirt.jpg?color=Black&padToSquare=true[/img]

Modifié par R2s Muse, 01 mai 2012 - 01:41 .

[R2s Muse]

vieralynn wrote...

(1) Cullen goes from trusting mages (mage origin story), to trusting no one (broken circle quest), to putting all of this trust in the templar order (DA2's Act 1 & 2), to not knowing who to trust (DA2 Act 3), to trusting himself and Hawke (final straw quest).

<snip>
Does the viewer/player live in a very punitive and vengeful society or culture, or subscribe to such beliefs? Do they personally believe that all crimes must be paid for and that blame must always be placed on someone? Do they believe that punishment is a necessary precursor for redemption? A character like Cullen leaves us with many unanswered questions about his culpability, especially since we know little about what he did or supported inside the walls of the Gallows. At the very least, he was a cog in an oppressive machine. That alone is fuel for some people's hatred.

Ah, I love this and can't wait to read the whole thing. I think you're right on the money with your points. I absolutely see his character progression being an important part of understanding his motivations. I particularly like your "trust" description above, which sums it up nicely. I see him as having seen both extremes of mage treatment, and finally at the end of DA2, he starts to reconcile the two and decide what he thinks for himself. But without recognizing that progression, he does indeed sound one-note.  I get so tired of rehashing my arguments, over and over, so it would be great to just say "See this link -->" and point to your essay.

And, you also make a good point about all that we don't know about his culpability in the templars' actions in Kirkwall. In some ways, he was a missed opportunity in DA2, because there were very few balanced opinions for the templar side. I think we should have had the opportunity "to hear what the Knight-Captain has to say" a little more often.

I also like VampOrchid's suggestion... you should put a post about it over on the DA3 companions forum, since the devs  have been lurking there.

Modifié par R2s Muse, 01 mai 2012 - 01:55 .

[R2s Muse]

OH and vieralynn, was checking out your ff.net account and LOL I happen to have read your kmeme fill about Cullen and Hawke just yesterday! Nicely done. ahem.

[LolaLei]

Welcome Vieralynn, I love how in depth you've investigated his character/story arc. Here's hoping we get him as a companion/LI in DA3. Out of interest, what sort of story/romance arc would you like to see him take in DA3? How would you like to see him introduced, for example, as a rogue Templar or an agent of the divine etc.

[SamaraDraven]

@vieralynn Your essay sounds wonderful! It basically encapsulates my entire journey from Cullen despiser to Cullen fanatic.

The first time I saw him at all was during my husband's PT of Broken Circle and since I played a Dwarf myself at the time, I had no reason to think he wasn't just cracked despite how nice his face or voice. When I did my own PT as a mage and I saw him, my first thought was "Ugh... I have to deal with you now?" Only... he wasn't spouting hate for mages; he was stuttering about wishing we could talk more and I was like "Wut? o.0" Then there were the mages that were gossiping.

This time, through the Broken Circle quest, he rambles about his feelings and so I had to think about him more than I previously wanted to and decided maybe he wasn't such a bad guy before. Just a traumatized one. But then the Epilogue happened and I was crushed that that the seemingly cute and nervous guy who liked my Warden had appeared to go off the deep end.

Seeing him in DA2 surprised me. In my mind, he had no business watching over mages after the things he'd done. And what he said about mages not being like other people, ticked me off. Then I did another mage PT of Origins because there was the whole Amell connection to the Hawke family and I wanted to see how that played when imported to DA2. This time I did the whole thing and didn't take the mage boon. Cullen's epilogue was different and suddnely his appearance in Kirkwall wasn't as shocking. This tells me that Bioware is going with the Not-Crazy-Homicidal-Psycho ending as canon. Something most Cullen haters seem to forget.

Picking up DA2 right after a DAO PT helped me feel like the time between games was more connected and that's when it hit me: Broken Circle was just months before Hawke met Cullen. His hate speech about mages being weapons suddenly made more sense and struck me as a huge step up from his stance that they all needed to be executed in Broken Circle. His slow turn around from that throughout DA2 made it easier to move past his misdeeds, especially since the worst of them wasn't canon. When the surrendering mages came, I was surprised by his defense of them and suddenly, it was like the man he was before was shining through, only less cowed by confrontation with his superiors and of sound opinion rather than spewing.

I think he was still clinging to some sense of duty and order to be following Meredith around. I don't think he wanted to see that she was cuckoo and would need to be openly challenged and stopped from her crazed path. I don't think he knew how far gone she was. Which points to another facet of a good person: He prefers to believe the best of people, even when his experiences should have taught him that he needs to be less naive.

When he allows Hawke to leave for siding with the mages, I was floored. But also not really. A part of me was still trying to apply heartless templar to him as a description but it wasn't fitting. When I played a templar PT I tried not to be super hardline about it but still on their side and saw more of Cullen's trusting attitude and it was almost tragic how you could lead him around. He puts his faith in the people he's "supposed" to trust so utterly that it takes everything falling to pieces for him to see something's wrong and it's why his psyche's so wounded when things go sideways. I'm happy he finally grew a pair when he pleaded for those mages' lives and got between Hawke and Meredith.

Now that he seems to be done with letting someone take him by the nose and his own mind is made up, I'm anxious to see where he goes with that. If DAO's "Cullen went crazy" epilogue was canon, I would say he doesn't deserve the chance. But since it's no longer supposed to count as canon, I let it go and find him a very intriguing character now. It'd be a shame if Bioware doesn't do something with that potential.

I think if people would stop clinging to the Cullen Went Crazy thing (it's not canon anymore, let it go!) they might find themselves feeling differently about him. As for the "too little, too late" that some feel for his defense of mages at the end of DA2, I bet they forget that Cullen often went to Hawke for help. Okay, the game doesn't actually give the PC much to do for the Templars but they make it seem like it was a normal thing, kind of like behind the scenes, so to speak. (Thus this is a prime example of how and where the game failed to be developed as much as it should have been.)

Cullen would also know that Thrask petitioned Hawke's help at times as well because as Thrask's superior, he'd know about the official business that Thrask was handling and thus have some idea of what Hawke was doing. He could have stopped it. He himself stopped giving Hawke things to do when Meredith said to but let Thrask continue because allowing that was better than letting some of the more hardcore knights handle some of the issues. I don't think he thought he could go directly against Meredith because he agreed with some of her edicts. And if he didn't, he'd be removed and unable to help at all and since he didn't agree with full-on rebellion either, he toed the line

Whew! Sorry. I've rambled soooo much! I hadn't meant to do that. But yes, I totally relate to your points.

I have a Cullen centric drawing I'm working on and was going to post it when it was done but I think I'll post the line art just to contribute more than diarrhea of the keyboard.

Modifié par SamaraDraven, 01 mai 2012 - 04:37 .

[R2s Muse]

Good points Samara! About the Cullen Went Crazy epilogue, I think that's part of it for some, even tho it has obviously been retconned (esp. now with the gossiping in Witch Hunt about Greenfell). But, I think there are also many who never even knew about that epilogue (like me) and Cullen's actions and non-actions in game are enough.

Looking forward to your drawing!

[Jessihatt]

I agree with Jasmine, The Stolen Throne is amazing! My favourite one.
It makes me warm to Loghain. But oh Maric
Why did you and Cailan have to die?! They would give Alistair a run for his money.

[Jessihatt]

God, I have!! I can't wait for the last issue!!

[SamaraDraven]

CommanderJessica wrote...

I agree with Jasmine, The Stolen Throne is amazing! My favourite one.
It makes me warm to Loghain. But oh Maric
Why did you and Cailan have to die?! They would give Alistair a run for his money.

I love Stolen Throne! I'm still working The Calling, though. But Maric is awesome in his knowledge that he's not the tactician or fighter Loghain is or that he's not sure he should rule. At one point I think he claims that Loghain should. Still... Maric is no slouch in fighting. In the beginning, he shows a lot of how muc a scrapper her is when getting away from his and his mother's betrayers. He likes the pretty elves a bit too much and it was sad to see his heart get broken over it. But it was even sadder that it was breaking Rowan's heart at the same time. And sadder still that Loghain was suffering, watching her suffer. *sigh* The sorry lot of them...

It was sooo intriguing to get a different glimpse of Loghain. I could already sort of see his POV in Origins, even though I deplored some of the things he'd done. He's a man hellbent on keeping his homeland safe and out of any intruder's hands, especially Orlesian ones. It's harder to hate him when you know what he's trying to prevent. And he wasn't wrong to worry. Maric may have been a little on the foolish side but he was behind Loghain all the way about Orlais. Cailan was thinking of doing something that completely snubbed everything his father had worked for and constituted treachery in Loghain's book.

Doesn't make it right, but it makes you ask yourself: "What would I have done in those circumstances?"

Edit: While I was out on my walk, I had ANOTHER fic idea come to me and it's Cullen centric and I'm just like "How many bunnies are gonna bite me before they'll let me settle down with one and finish it?!"

Modifié par SamaraDraven, 01 mai 2012 - 05:59 .