SamaraDraven wrote...
[snip]Only… he wasn't spouting hate for mages; he was stuttering about wishing we could talk more and I was like "Wut? o.0" Then there were the mages that were gossiping.
To compare my experience with yours, my first playthrough of DA:O used a female Surana warden. My first experiences with Cullen were not only positive but made me realize that the templar-vs-mage situation was not black and white. After adding in what was happening with Jowen and Lily, I could see how hopeless the forbidden love was between Cullen and the female mage. With all of this creating my first impressions of Cullen, for anything he said or did during the Broken Circle quest or in DA2 I always thought back to the person I first remembered him to be and then I would think about how his experiences had shaped him.
SamaraDraven wrote...
Picking up DA2 right after a DAO PT helped me feel like the time between games was more connected and that's when it hit me: Broken Circle was just months before Hawke met Cullen. His hate speech about mages being weapons suddenly made more sense and struck me as a huge step up from his stance that they all needed to be executed in Broken Circle. His slow turn around from that throughout DA2 made it easier to move past his misdeeds, especially since the worst of them wasn't canon. When the surrendering mages came, I was surprised by his defense of them and suddenly, it was like the man he was before was shining through, only less cowed by confrontation with his superiors and of sound opinion rather than spewing.
I think that short period of time really is critical in understanding why Cullen refers to mages as weapons. Also, those infamous lines are spoken right after the Enemy Among Us quest where Tarohne turns templar recruits into weapons (of a sort) by possessing them with demons. Hawke can trigger Cullen's "mages are weapons" dialogue immediately after convincing him to take Keran back into the Order, so it is completely believable that Cullen's hate speech is triggered by deep seated fear of blood magic and demonic possession. Also, much of his dialogue and behavior in Act 1 illustrates typical PSTD symptoms. For this reason I find it impossible to get angry at the things Cullen says. Instead, I just feel sympathy and compassion for him while thinking about how terrible it is that he is in a situation where he will suffer psychologically.
SamaraDraven wrote...
I think he was still clinging to some sense of duty and order to be following Meredith around. I don't think he wanted to see that she was cuckoo and would need to be openly challenged and stopped from her crazed path. I don't think he knew how far gone she was. Which points to another facet of a good person: He prefers to believe the best of people, even when his experiences should have taught him that he needs to be less naive.
When he allows Hawke to leave for siding with the mages, I was floored. But also not really. A part of me was still trying to apply heartless templar to him as a description but it wasn't fitting. When I played a templar PT I tried not to be super hardline about it but still on their side and saw more of Cullen's trusting attitude and it was almost tragic how you could lead him around. He puts his faith in the people he's "supposed" to trust so utterly that it takes everything falling to pieces for him to see something's wrong and it's why his psyche's so wounded when things go sideways. I'm happy he finally grew a pair when he pleaded for those mages' lives and got between Hawke and Meredith.
Yes. The way Cullen is portrayed, he seems to be heavily swayed by charismatic people such as Meredith and Hawke. I found it very interesting that DA2 repeatedly has Cullen ask Hawke what he should do. I can't think of another NPC who looks to Hawke so often for guidance. One one hand, it shows how much Cullen wanted someone or something to believe him and to help him feel confident about deciding right from wrong. But, as you said, it is tragic to see how easily he can be lead around.
All of this just goes to show how subtle and nuanced his characterization is. While it may be easy to write him off as a mage-hating templar, all I see is a naive, trusting boy trapped in the body of a man suffering with PTSD and put in position (Knight-Captain) that is surely has him in over his head. At that point, I can't hate him. Instead, I hate the system that causes people like Cullen *and* Anders to suffer so much.
SamaraDraven wrote...
I think if people would stop clinging to the Cullen Went Crazy thing (it's not canon anymore, let it go!) they might find themselves feeling differently about him.
I've repeatedly read that the epilogue cards are all rumor and hearsay which means that they were never canon to begin with.
SamaraDraven wrote...
As for the "too little, too late" that some feel for his defense of mages at the end of DA2, I bet they forget that Cullen often went to Hawke for help. Okay, the game doesn't actually give the PC much to do for the Templars but they make it seem like it was a normal thing, kind of like behind the scenes, so to speak. (Thus this is a prime example of how and where the game failed to be developed as much as it should have been.)
Cullen would also know that Thrask petitioned Hawke's help at times as well because as Thrask's superior, he'd know about the official business that Thrask was handling and thus have some idea of what Hawke was doing. He could have stopped it. He himself stopped giving Hawke things to do when Meredith said to but let Thrask continue because allowing that was better than letting some of the more hardcore knights handle some of the issues. I don't think he thought he could go directly against Meredith because he agreed with some of her edicts. And if he didn't, he'd be removed and unable to help at all and since he didn't agree with full-on rebellion either, he toed the line.
All of this! Also, late in Act I, Cullen will either say that he's been hearing strange rumors about Hawke or Bethany and that he hopes the rumors aren't true. That serves as a subtle warning that rumors about an apostate in the Hawke family have reached the "wrong" people in the Gallows. During my first completely unspoiled play through, I was honestly scared that something bad was going to happen to my mage Hawke and I took that warning from Cullen as a reason to get on with the Deep Roads expedition as soon as possible. Obviously, nothing bad will happen to the PC, but Cullen's warning foreshadows what will happen if Bethany is left behind. Also, we learn at various points in the game that bribes and status are used to protect mage Hawke or Bethany. We don't know if Cullen has ever taken bribes (somehow I doubt that he would--he just seems too honest and lawful). Instead, I assumed that he let mage Hawke or Bethany remain free during Act I (while the Hawke family is poor and without status) purely because Hawke saved Cullen's life when he was attacked by possessed Wilmod.
Putting all of this together, Cullen has a history of going to Hawke for help *and* helping Hawke. Hawke associates with mages, and is either a mage or has a mage sister. Thus, there seems to be more going on than blindly/religiously following orders even when he claims to trust the Templar Order without question.
SamaraDraven wrote...I have a Cullen centric drawing I'm working on and was going to post it when it was done but I think I'll post the line art just to contribute more than diarrhea of the keyboard.
Please please!!!
I don't understand from what I read so far, why Loghain would purposely stay away from his wife and daughter.
Retour en haut
Guess I related my brother's story to Cullen's more than I thought... But there you have it. My point of view. *ducks the tomatoes* 
It has promise though... 
And between Amell's old stories about Cullen and Hawke's newer ones, he'd be permanently beet red! lol! I can jus tsee him now, standing in the Gallows between them, pinching the bridge of his nose while they giggled about him. 
It's harder to hate him when you know what he's trying to prevent. And he wasn't wrong to worry. Maric may have been a little on the foolish side but he was behind Loghain all the way about Orlais. Cailan was thinking of doing something that completely snubbed everything his father had worked for and constituted treachery in Loghain's book. 
but that's because I'm sane as far as I know!
)
