89415 réponses à ce sujet

[berelinde]

Danny Boy 7 wrote...

I can agree with this, though one last question before we hug and rejoin the collective don't the mages have Tevinter while the Chantry has Orlais as centralized locations? I mean even in a free society when people view things as normal in an unbiased fashion they still congregate. I mean my girlfriend (well ex) and mom are both accepting and even game a bit on their own but I still want to go to Comicon or E3 because it's cool to see so many people interested in the same thing I am.

I mean biologically don't we seek out like minded people. It's how you get terrorist groups as well as freedom fighters. Though I guess the argument could be made that in a free society they'd be less inclined to do so. Hmm...but isn't that how the Imperium started? I mean there was no taboo, no hatred towards mages that we know and yet they came to the collective decision to enslave an entire continent...I guess though that you sort of just have to chalk that up to the price of freedom the potential for abuse. Really that's the price of the right to gather I guess in order to practice whatever you want you have to be aware that people will missuse that trust (though in varying stages).

Like us! As Cullen fans we risk fellow Cullen fans going around acting a bit to...excited for *cough* Cullypoo:sick:

I think I have a good understanding though I can get behind this train of thought.

Mages don't have Tevinter as a centralized location. Most mages in Thedas aren't Tevinter. They're Fereldan/Rivaini/Orlesian/Anders/Qunari/Chasind/etc. My entire point was that taking away the "mage" label would enable them to identify with their *real* people, those who share their homes, villages, and nations.  Unlike the Chantry, there is no militant Order of mages to pass information and call meetings. Left to their own devices, they would melt into their communities without fanfare.

Tevinter is kind of a special case. Unlike the rest of Thedas, Tevinter has a long history of magocracy that predates the Chantry. Like the Dalish, they historically and culturally value those who possess the gift of magic and elevate those who possess it to government jobs. It's their cultural heritage. Once they've secured a job in civil service, they're centralized, of course, but that's just Tevinter, not the other nations. People retain their cultural heritage. To this day, regional distinctions within the United States are preserved, and they cross lines of politics, religion, and economic standing. Throughout the rest of Thedas, taking the definition that describes Thedas as "the part of the world that is not the Tevinter Imperium," mages were never particularly revered. There is no reason to suspect that people would start promoting them to fill the void left by the dissolving Chantry.

Long story short: Templars will gather and exchange ideas and plan for the future. Mages are more likely to think of themselves as individuals and less likely to define themselves as a collective "mages," so they would be less likely to gather to talk about "mage things" and more likelty to join community discussions like "We saw the Orlesians camped 20 miles to the west. They can be here in one day. Ideas?" For what it's worth, they'll be more interested in protecting their farms than their mana.

[VampOrchid]

littlenikki wrote...

Here's another version of Gingy Cullen (as I've named this creation)

So need Meredith in the background with the legs lol

[PorcelynDoll]

Not his gumdrop buttons!

[Shades_Of_Pale]

 LMFAO!
those pictures are beautiful!! :lol:
Sucks that I was sleeping when they were shown..

I had a dream last night that I was playing DA3 and Cullen was about to die but he said "psh, screw this" and junped out of the tv. Then suddenly people were screaming at me for some reason and Cullen was laughing then Josh Holloway came..

[Danny Boy 7]

berelinde wrote...

Danny Boy 7 wrote...

I can agree with this, though one last question before we hug and rejoin the collective don't the mages have Tevinter while the Chantry has Orlais as centralized locations? I mean even in a free society when people view things as normal in an unbiased fashion they still congregate. I mean my girlfriend (well ex) and mom are both accepting and even game a bit on their own but I still want to go to Comicon or E3 because it's cool to see so many people interested in the same thing I am.

I mean biologically don't we seek out like minded people. It's how you get terrorist groups as well as freedom fighters. Though I guess the argument could be made that in a free society they'd be less inclined to do so. Hmm...but isn't that how the Imperium started? I mean there was no taboo, no hatred towards mages that we know and yet they came to the collective decision to enslave an entire continent...I guess though that you sort of just have to chalk that up to the price of freedom the potential for abuse. Really that's the price of the right to gather I guess in order to practice whatever you want you have to be aware that people will missuse that trust (though in varying stages).

Like us! As Cullen fans we risk fellow Cullen fans going around acting a bit to...excited for *cough* Cullypoo:sick:

I think I have a good understanding though I can get behind this train of thought.

Mages don't have Tevinter as a centralized location. Most mages in Thedas aren't Tevinter. They're Fereldan/Rivaini/Orlesian/Anders/Qunari/Chasind/etc. My entire point was that taking away the "mage" label would enable them to identify with their *real* people, those who share their homes, villages, and nations.  Unlike the Chantry, there is no militant Order of mages to pass information and call meetings. Left to their own devices, they would melt into their communities without fanfare.

Tevinter is kind of a special case. Unlike the rest of Thedas, Tevinter has a long history of magocracy that predates the Chantry. Like the Dalish, they historically and culturally value those who possess the gift of magic and elevate those who possess it to government jobs. It's their cultural heritage. Once they've secured a job in civil service, they're centralized, of course, but that's just Tevinter, not the other nations. People retain their cultural heritage. To this day, regional distinctions within the United States are preserved, and they cross lines of politics, religion, and economic standing. Throughout the rest of Thedas, taking the definition that describes Thedas as "the part of the world that is not the Tevinter Imperium," mages were never particularly revered. There is no reason to suspect that people would start promoting them to fill the void left by the dissolving Chantry.

Long story short: Templars will gather and exchange ideas and plan for the future. Mages are more likely to think of themselves as individuals and less likely to define themselves as a collective "mages," so they would be less likely to gather to talk about "mage things" and more likelty to join community discussions like "We saw the Orlesians camped 20 miles to the west. They can be here in one day. Ideas?" For what it's worth, they'll be more interested in protecting their farms than their mana.

Well I didn't mean that Tevinter would be a militarized hub, instead a sort of gathering place, because who has the most knowledge of magic? Tevinter. In a sort of Geneva of mages. But I get what you mean they just don't have a reason to be collectively referred to as mages, they're just people and with that knowledge there would be less of an inclination to associate themselves with another mage over say another Ferelden or Rivani? Do I have that right?

Edit: I had another question regarding Templars and Andraste and such but it started to get way off topic and into a convoluted area that was to complex for my little brain to follow without lethal amounts of caffeine

[berelinde]

Danny Boy 7 wrote...

Well I didn't mean that Tevinter would be a militarized hub, instead a sort of gathering place, because who has the most knowledge of magic? Tevinter. In a sort of Geneva of mages. But I get what you mean they just don't have a reason to be collectively referred to as mages, they're just people and with that knowledge there would be less of an inclination to associate themselves with another mage over say another Ferelden or Rivani? Do I have that right?

Edit: I had another question regarding Templars and Andraste and such but it started to get way off topic and into a convoluted area that was to complex for my little brain to follow without lethal amounts of caffeine

You understood the point I made, but I didn't articulate everything I was trying to say with that.

Mages are rare in the general population. They might *want* to hang out with other mages once in a while. As you say, people do like to be around others like them. They just don't have the means, or even a communication network to organize conventions. Travel is expensive and dangerous. They might be able to make it to the nearest city a few times a year to trade and hopefully have an ale or two with other mages who are also in town on personal business, but traveling hundreds of miles and crossing the Waking Sea is beyond the means of most people. Also, Tevinter mages have no incentive to organize such meetings. They don't share ideas, and they don't like to see other mages get ahead. Power is a jealously guarded thing there.

The templars don't really have that obstacle. They are an army. They have that whole chain of command thing and communication all worked out. They know (or can find out) the location of other groups, and they are already practiced at deployment. They have communication and travel already worked out.

Training is also a thing. Templars have formally established training regimens. Since their skills depend on lyrium, not solely innate ability, the only limit to their advancement is their leadership ability. In a "free mage" society, the mages would have to work out some kind of education system. If I were in charge of setting it up, I'd make it kind of like a school, with one in every major town. Parents could send their kids there to learn their lessons and they'd come home for holidays and major family events or emergencies (sister's wedding, mortal illness of a grandparent, that kind of thing). Upon graduation, the mages would go back to their families or pursue a career path of their own choosing. Some might stay on and become teachers if there was an opening, but most would probably go back to the family trade or join the local militia.

Just not one school per nation. Putting everyone together in one spot perpetuates the "We R l33t!!!1@!" mystique, and that's really, really bad for establishing equality.  Better to train everyone up thinking that they're no different from and no better (or worse) than their non-magical neighbors because it allows them to become invested in their communities. The goal is to strip away the mystery, the secrecy, and the ignorance. People fear mages because they have been told to do so. Once they see what it's all about with their own eyes, that fear will diminish. Some people will cling to the hate, but the number who do will diminish over time.

Anyway, that's my take on it. It will be interesting to see what happens in game.

Aaaaaannd, I've finally gotten it all out of my system. My "free mage" diatribe has been poking me relentlessly for weeks, and it feels good to finally get it out there.

Modifié par berelinde, 06 décembre 2012 - 01:32 .

[Danny Boy 7]

berelinde wrote...

Danny Boy 7 wrote...

Well I didn't mean that Tevinter would be a militarized hub, instead a sort of gathering place, because who has the most knowledge of magic? Tevinter. In a sort of Geneva of mages. But I get what you mean they just don't have a reason to be collectively referred to as mages, they're just people and with that knowledge there would be less of an inclination to associate themselves with another mage over say another Ferelden or Rivani? Do I have that right?

Edit: I had another question regarding Templars and Andraste and such but it started to get way off topic and into a convoluted area that was to complex for my little brain to follow without lethal amounts of caffeine

You understood the point I made, but I didn't articulate everything I was trying to say with that.

Mages are rare in the general population. They might *want* to hang out with other mages once in a while. As you say, people do like to be around others like them. They just don't have the means, or even a communication network to organize conventions. Travel is expensive and dangerous. They might be able to make it to the nearest city a few times a year to trade and hopefully have an ale or two with other mages who are also in town on personal business, but traveling hundreds of miles and crossing the Waking Sea is beyond the means of most people. Also, Tevinter mages have no incentive to organize such meetings. They don't share ideas, and they don't like to see other mages get ahead. Power is a jealously guarded thing there.

The templars don't really have that obstacle. They are an army. They have that whole chain of command thing and communication all worked out. They know (or can find out) the location of other groups, and they are already practiced at deployment. They have communication and travel already worked out.

Training is also a thing. Templars have formally established training regimens. Since their skills depend on lyrium, not solely innate ability, the only limit to their advancement is their leadership ability. In a "free mage" society, the mages would have to work out some kind of education system. If I were in charge of setting it up, I'd make it kind of like a school, with one in every major town. Parents could send their kids there to learn their lessons and they'd come home for holidays and major family events or emergencies (sister's wedding, mortal illness of a grandparent, that kind of thing). Upon graduation, the mages would go back to their families or pursue a career path of their own choosing. Some might stay on and become teachers if there was an opening, but most would probably go back to the family trade or join the local militia.

Just not one school per nation. Putting everyone together in one spot perpetuates the "We R l33t!!!1@!" mystique, and that's really, really bad for establishing equality.  Better to train everyone up thinking that they're no different from and no better (or worse) than their non-magical neighbors because it allows them to become invested in their communities.

Anyway, that's my take on it. It will be interesting to see what happens in game.

I have a small quip, it's not even a quip more of a idea on my own part. Since the seperation of mages from the common folk (in an educational capacity) would essentially increase the "they are different than me mentality" that we want to avoid in that scenario, wouldn't it be better to make the schooling open to the public as well? They go to the same, math classes, english classes, even sex ed classes but where the non-magical student then has a free period or a trade skill  the magical students have...defense against the dark arts or whatever. That way you have the funding from even the common folk because who is going to pay for the school while also negating the "I have an education so I'm better than you mentality" that people tend to get.

Otherwise I vote berelinde Head Master of Anders school of Witchcraft and Wizardy!!!

[Danny Boy 7]

berelinde wrote...

-snip

Anyway, that's my take on it. It will be interesting to see what happens in game.

Aaaaaannd, I've finally gotten it all out of my system. My "free mage" diatribe has been poking me relentlessly for weeks, and it feels good to finally get it out there.

...Shall we hug now and return to our loving of Cullen wiping away any unintended hurt feelings with the power of polite debate and tolerance that we just had?

...shhhh...shhh *hugs*

You want this:whistle:

[berelinde]

LOL! Sure, why not? Public education in Thedas. The catch is that in a pre-industrial society, most kids who don't absolutely *need* to be in school are needed at home to get the harvest in or to card wool or whatever, but most kids get at least some education. Maybe the school year could be set up to accommodate the crop schedule. Just keep religion out of it. The last thing anybody needs is an integrated classroom where the lecture of the day is "Why mages are monsters waiting to happen." Singling out the one "special needs" kid isn't really conducive to education.

[berelinde]

Danny Boy 7 wrote...

berelinde wrote...

-snip

Anyway, that's my take on it. It will be interesting to see what happens in game.

Aaaaaannd, I've finally gotten it all out of my system. My "free mage" diatribe has been poking me relentlessly for weeks, and it feels good to finally get it out there.

...Shall we hug now and return to our loving of Cullen wiping away any unintended hurt feelings with the power of polite debate and tolerance that we just had?

...shhhh...shhh *hugs*

You want this:whistle:

No hurt feelings! I really enjoyed that debate.

Hugs for everyone! And Cullen can go around making sure everybody got their share.

[Danny Boy 7]

berelinde wrote...

LOL! Sure, why not? Public education in Thedas. The catch is that in a pre-industrial society, most kids who don't absolutely *need* to be in school are needed at home to get the harvest in or to card wool or whatever, but most kids get at least some education. Maybe the school year could be set up to accommodate the crop schedule. Just keep religion out of it. The last thing anybody needs is an integrated classroom where the lecture of the day is "Why mages are monsters waiting to happen." Singling out the one "special needs" kid isn't really conducive to education.

Totally agree with that, but don't forbid the practice of it in schools if that makes sense? You don't have to teach but don't keep the students from say praying with their coach if both parties are so inclined. No need to spread hate as you said, but no reason to outlaw the good parts of it as well as the bad.

[Danny Boy 7]

berelinde wrote...

Danny Boy 7 wrote...

berelinde wrote...

-snip

Anyway, that's my take on it. It will be interesting to see what happens in game.

Aaaaaannd, I've finally gotten it all out of my system. My "free mage" diatribe has been poking me relentlessly for weeks, and it feels good to finally get it out there.

...Shall we hug now and return to our loving of Cullen wiping away any unintended hurt feelings with the power of polite debate and tolerance that we just had?

...shhhh...shhh *hugs*

You want this:whistle:

No hurt feelings! I really enjoyed that debate.

Hugs for everyone! And Cullen can go around making sure everybody got their share.

Hey Berelinde what do you think of CGI trailers? Do you like them or do you prefer in game trailers? If the former what type of scene would you want this game to have? Also...what do you want in DA3? Story, gameplay and character wise?

[Danny Boy 7]

And I killed the thread....fantastic..........

[littlenikki]

Danny Boy 7 wrote...

And I killed the thread....fantastic..........

*gasp* It's ok! I'm still alive! It was a close call for a second there though 

[PorcelynDoll]

I'm playing Balder's Gate EE as Cullen. His dad was a mage.... it all makes sense lol

[berelinde]

You didn't kill the thread. You and I may be the only ones awake, and I was driving to work.

My thing about keeping religion out of it was more along the lines of 1) no Chantry oversight and 2) no religion classes. I would not like to see a formalized curriculum based around religion, but there's nothing to say that individuals can't be devout on their own time. Most public schools in the US have bible clubs. The important thing is that these after-school bible clubs don't get special privileges.

The problem is that while the Divine may be enlightened and progressive in her political views, her adherents are often not. She may very well seek to reform the Chantry, but it's going to take a long, long time, and until the clergy actively believes that magic is not the source of all evil, they're going to keep teaching that it is, Divine writ or no. To her credit, the current Divine seems to understand this and seems to want change, but unfortunately for Thedas, it's too little too late.

The temptation of absolute power - magical, political, or religious - is too great for some people to resist. Limiting the sphere of individual influence also limits the potential for abuse. That goes for clerics, enchanters, kings, and everyone else. When you've got a wise and benevolent ruler at the helm, everything ticks along nicely, but when the absolute ruler is a tyrant, everyone suffers, and there's no way to get rid of them.

[berelinde]

PorcelynDoll wrote...

I'm playing Balder's Gate EE as Cullen. His dad was a mage.... it all makes sense lol

Cool! How are you liking it? I've been meaning to try it, but free time...

[berelinde]

littlenikki wrote...

Danny Boy 7 wrote...

And I killed the thread....fantastic..........

*gasp* It's ok! I'm still alive! It was a close call for a second there though 

Whoops! Sorry!

It's just really hard to avoid the temptation of writing massive walls of text about subjects of interest. We need more Cullen questions to inspire massive walls of text about that!

Edit: I really wish this forum had "multi-quote".

Modifié par berelinde, 06 décembre 2012 - 03:33 .

[R2s Muse]

LOL guys! OK, so to get some slightly more Cullen-oriented thinking going, I followed up on yesterday's discussion about Cullen being the steady, best-friend type of LI as opposed to the fiery, drama-laden one.

So, first, as usual, I couldn't help but create a new banner ( do we drink yesterday, when the idea was posed? Or now that I've shared it?)


Second, in creating it, I made a sorta cute, not quite up to littlenikki standards, photomanip of our favorite steady templar. Stepping right out of the J Crew catalog, I give you nice-guy!Cullen. LOL Take THAT one home to meet your folks.

[littlenikki]

berelinde wrote...

littlenikki wrote...

Danny Boy 7 wrote...

And I killed the thread....fantastic..........

*gasp* It's ok! I'm still alive! It was a close call for a second there though 

Whoops! Sorry!

It's just really hard to avoid the temptation of writing massive walls of text about subjects of interest. We need more Cullen questions to inspire massive walls of text about that!

Edit: I really wish this forum had "multi-quote".

Oh no! I wasn't saying that cause of your guys discussion, I actually had just woke up

Modifié par littlenikki, 06 décembre 2012 - 03:55 .

[littlenikki]

Hopefully this will help wake everyone up a bit! Caption by R2

[berelinde]

R2s Muse wrote...

LOL guys! OK, so to get some slightly more Cullen-oriented thinking going, I followed up on yesterday's discussion about Cullen being the steady, best-friend type of LI as opposed to the fiery, drama-laden one.

So, first, as usual, I couldn't help but create a new banner ( do we drink yesterday, when the idea was posed? Or now that I've shared it?)


Second, in creating it, I made a sorta cute, not quite up to littlenikki standards, photomanip of our favorite steady templar. Stepping right out of the J Crew catalog, I give you nice-guy!Cullen. LOL Take THAT one home to meet your folks.

Wow, that guy is totally my type. Clean-cut will get me every time.

[Danny Boy 7]

berelinde wrote...

You didn't kill the thread. You and I may be the only ones awake, and I was driving to work.

My thing about keeping religion out of it was more along the lines of 1) no Chantry oversight and 2) no religion classes. I would not like to see a formalized curriculum based around religion, but there's nothing to say that individuals can't be devout on their own time. Most public schools in the US have bible clubs. The important thing is that these after-school bible clubs don't get special privileges.

The problem is that while the Divine may be enlightened and progressive in her political views, her adherents are often not. She may very well seek to reform the Chantry, but it's going to take a long, long time, and until the clergy actively believes that magic is not the source of all evil, they're going to keep teaching that it is, Divine writ or no. To her credit, the current Divine seems to understand this and seems to want change, but unfortunately for Thedas, it's too little too late.

The temptation of absolute power - magical, political, or religious - is too great for some people to resist. Limiting the sphere of individual influence also limits the potential for abuse. That goes for clerics, enchanters, kings, and everyone else. When you've got a wise and benevolent ruler at the helm, everything ticks along nicely, but when the absolute ruler is a tyrant, everyone suffers, and there's no way to get rid of them.

Oh no I completely understand I just meant that while the curriculum shouldn't be centered around religion in anyway they should restrict it in a way that is still respectful to their students beliefs. Some schools go a bit overboard and it's not fair to prohibit say the elves who don't force their beliefs on others the way that a good chunk of the andrastian population does. I say chunk because it's unfair to paint all of them with the same brush the same way it's not right to paint mages as ticking time bombs waiting to happen. Thats all I really meant.

[Danny Boy 7]

Sorry for necroing this discussion over and over me and berelinde are just setting up the curriculum for Anders school of Witchcraft and Wizardry

It looks good though R2 unless I look really close I can't tell where his neck stops and his head begins. Idk if I could where those clothes not that I don't get dressed up but I've never been good with semi-formal, always formal or leisure

[meanieweenie]

Oh my, R2.... Clean Cut Cullen (or C Cubed? lol) He'd never go for me. The nice guys never do. lol