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The Official Knight-Captain Cullen Discussion thread 2.0.


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#30501
Danny Boy 7

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deuce985 wrote...

- Respectful snip

Orlais just sounds boring to me. Maybe I'm in the minority. Hopefully Bioware can change my mind. We'll see. I could definitely see DA3 pushing you into Tevinter Imperium and Orlais more than any other countries. Simply to see how the societies are so different and the political differences. Maybe it gives them the opportunity to bring Qunari back too since they're at war with TI?


Nah you're not in the minority, in fact if I were honest with myself I'd say that I am with my unhealthy hopes that we are only in Orlais. I understand why people think it would be boring but maybe I can excite you with why I think a setting based solely in Orlais would be fantastic. 

1. Val Royeaux; essentially the base of Chantry power, described as having the Chant sung constantly throughout the streets, now message of the Chantry aside imagine hearing Ave Maria (sp) playing constantly throughout the streets of your home town and it's so long that you wouldn't hear the pieces enough to really consider them boring/old.

There is also the first Thedosian university, Orlais is after all going through a cultural renaissance where art, learning etc is rising. In fact the streets are said to be lit by magical lamposts.

2. Andorhal's Reach see the "presumed" (by me) HQ of the Mage Rebellion see the machinations of Tevinters as they attempt to turn a noble cause into another Imperium while staying away from the issues with the Qunari. 

3. The Dales/Arbor Wilds/Ash Plains visit beautiful expanses of desert, dense unexplored forests and the second homeland of the elves...

I kind of ran out of steam lol. It's very late for me right now. Tis very tired.

#30502
deuce985

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Danny Boy 7 wrote...

deuce985 wrote...

- Respectful snip

Orlais just sounds boring to me. Maybe I'm in the minority. Hopefully Bioware can change my mind. We'll see. I could definitely see DA3 pushing you into Tevinter Imperium and Orlais more than any other countries. Simply to see how the societies are so different and the political differences. Maybe it gives them the opportunity to bring Qunari back too since they're at war with TI?


Nah you're not in the minority, in fact if I were honest with myself I'd say that I am with my unhealthy hopes that we are only in Orlais. I understand why people think it would be boring but maybe I can excite you with why I think a setting based solely in Orlais would be fantastic. 

1. Val Royeaux; essentially the base of Chantry power, described as having the Chant sung constantly throughout the streets, now message of the Chantry aside imagine hearing Ave Maria (sp) playing constantly throughout the streets of your home town and it's so long that you wouldn't hear the pieces enough to really consider them boring/old.

There is also the first Thedosian university, Orlais is after all going through a cultural renaissance where art, learning etc is rising. In fact the streets are said to be lit by magical lamposts.

2. Andorhal's Reach see the "presumed" (by me) HQ of the Mage Rebellion see the machinations of Tevinters as they attempt to turn a noble cause into another Imperium while staying away from the issues with the Qunari. 

3. The Dales/Arbor Wilds/Ash Plains visit beautiful expanses of desert, dense unexplored forests and the second homeland of the elves...

I kind of ran out of steam lol. It's very late for me right now. Tis very tired.


Oh, I'm definitely not writing it off. I'm just saying based on what I've seen and read so far, it's not interesting. I have confidence Bioware will blow me away and surpass expectations on Orlais.

#30503
berelinde

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Er... at the risk of being contrary, I don't see the Tevinters getting involved in Andoral's Reach. Tevinters don't like to share power any more than the mages holed up there want a foreign power coming in and taking over. The inhabitants of the stronghold chose the location because it's remote and because it's a good place for them to regroup and make plans for their survival. They are focused on self-governance, not world domination. "Another Tevinter" is a phrase their opposition uses to describe their aims, but neither the actual Imperium nor the mages of Andoral's Reach want it.

#30504
R2s Muse

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@deuce - indeed, loved the improvements in the DLC, which I think goes a long way toward proving they've learned from the feedback. I also thought they were both visually stunning. I particularly hope they carry over the color palette from MOTA.


I continue to be unsure what to expect in Andoral's Reach, since I imagine the templar-Mage battle would've been won already (I.e. shortly after the end of Asunder, 9:40). I can't imagine the mages being able to survive in a remote ruin for too long if there's a lengthy siege. Even mages must eat. I guess I expect the mages to have lost and retreated elsewhere. Having a hard time imagining other scenarios. Other thoughts?

Modifié par R2s Muse, 24 décembre 2012 - 03:43 .


#30505
berelinde

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Factors to consider: there are more mages than templars. Templars will be further divided because some elected to remain with the Chantry, and some ambitous templars probably used the opportunity to promote themselves by creating vacancies in the chain of command. Remember that individual templars aside, the Order has been recruiting heavily from a pool of people who like the idea of dominating others. Evangeline remarks on this in Asunder. Mage fraternities are a little more loosely organized than the templar order, but they aren't really vying with each other for position. Each fraternity elects a spokesperson and that's about it.

Economically, mages are not without resources. The formari are well-known by most people as a source of potions, enchanted items, and healing, so they probably still had avenues of trade open to them. Unlike the templars who do not actually produce anything, the mages have things to sell, which means that they could well have supply lines. Plus, the mages are banding together for survival, not conquest. People fight harder when their lives are at stake.

Andoral's Reach was never intended to be a permanent refuge. Rhys says as much in Asunder. It was where they fled. They intended to gather there until they could come up with some kind of longer-term survival plan, possibly involving dispersal. As the templars were not immediately aware of where they went, it is possible that there was no siege at all. By the time the templars found the site, if they ever did, they may have been long gone.

I do not think the mages have been beaten into the ground quite yet. If they were, Cassandra would not have needed to look for the Champion in the first place.

Modifié par berelinde, 24 décembre 2012 - 04:27 .


#30506
CuriousArtemis

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R2s Muse wrote...

I asked the artist. The Cullen pic above is him holding her staff hostage for a kiss. Clever boy. LOL


It IS beautifully drawn/painted, but it still bothers me... something about his posture and expression and the look on her face. 

#30507
CuriousArtemis

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What is Andoral's Reach? Kay I honestly dunno anything about the "lore" of this game lol

#30508
Danny Boy 7

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berelinde wrote...

Er... at the risk of being contrary, I don't see the Tevinters getting involved in Andoral's Reach. Tevinters don't like to share power any more than the mages holed up there want a foreign power coming in and taking over. The inhabitants of the stronghold chose the location because it's remote and because it's a good place for them to regroup and make plans for their survival. They are focused on self-governance, not world domination. "Another Tevinter" is a phrase their opposition uses to describe their aims, but neither the actual Imperium nor the mages of Andoral's Reach want it.


Well that was just a bit of possibilities/flavor text for my argument lol. It's true sure enough that Tevinters don't like to share power and in that regard it's not hard to imagine that they'd use anything especially a potentially powerful unleashed rebellion in order to weaken Chantry/Templar/Andrastian forces or at the very least to get Templars the hell out of the Imperium.

As for the mages I'm sure they'd be wary of any help they'd recieved by Tevinter in fact I'm sure a comment in the game would be something along the lines, "We accept their trade, but I don't trust them as far as I can throw them." or "You know the Tevinters aren't as bad as I thought, maybe I'll move to Minrathous after the rebellion." because the mages aren't one mind after all. There are some who didn't want to rebel, there are probably some who didn't at all just like the Templars or Seekers. It could be that the Tevinters want the war to drag out as long as possible but not to have either side win out similar to the Thalmor during the Skyrim Civil War.

Luckily Fiona has a good head on her shoulders and wouldn't fall for something very easily in fact I don't think she'd fall for anything however the kicker is, not that they follow any orders from the Imperium but because simply by having this war they are whittling down the Chantry's hold over the length of Thedas and while I doubt they could conquer the way they used to they have after all been holding off the Qunari for a couple centuries, they could potentially take the Anderfels (a constant in their storied conquests) and maybe Seheron and parts of Rivain.

#30509
Danny Boy 7

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berelinde wrote...

Factors to consider: there are more mages than templars. Templars will be further divided because some elected to remain with the Chantry, and some ambitous templars probably used the opportunity to promote themselves by creating vacancies in the chain of command. Remember that individual templars aside, the Order has been recruiting heavily from a pool of people who like the idea of dominating others. Evangeline remarks on this in Asunder. Mage fraternities are a little more loosely organized than the templar order, but they aren't really vying with each other for position. Each fraternity elects a spokesperson and that's about it.

Economically, mages are not without resources. The formari are well-known by most people as a source of potions, enchanted items, and healing, so they probably still had avenues of trade open to them. Unlike the templars who do not actually produce anything, the mages have things to sell, which means that they could well have supply lines. Plus, the mages are banding together for survival, not conquest. People fight harder when their lives are at stake.

Andoral's Reach was never intended to be a permanent refuge. Rhys says as much in Asunder. It was where they fled. They intended to gather there until they could come up with some kind of longer-term survival plan, possibly involving dispersal. As the templars were not immediately aware of where they went, it is possible that there was no siege at all. By the time the templars found the site, if they ever did, they may have been long gone.

I do not think the mages have been beaten into the ground quite yet. If they were, Cassandra would not have needed to look for the Champion in the first place.


Just to play devil's advocado there may be two things you are overlooking. First off there is always the possibility that no one wants to trade...with either side. I mean everyone might pull a "Uh...you guys do what you want we'll be over here." unwilling to get involved out of fear of reprisal from the other side should they win. Now that's not to discount the Formari or what they create because afterall the Dwarves are major partners with them albeit it's been through the Templars/Chantry but will those supply lines still be viable now that they don't have that Chantry seal of approval. :P

The second is that while there are definetily more mages, the Templars/Seekers are an army, have fought in wars or the defense of their nations etc while the mages are not. They have children and teenagers, possibly extremely old mages not made more powerful by a Spirit of Faith that can hinder movement and until we learn one way or the other could make up a significant portion or at the very least an inconvenient one.

I'm personally curious however what happened to the Tranquil mages? And what that could mean to the mages war effort.

#30510
Danny Boy 7

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motomotogirl wrote...

What is Andoral's Reach? Kay I honestly dunno anything about the "lore" of this game lol


At the end of Asunder it was the temporary holdout for the Mage Rebellion and also the place where they voted to officially start the war/seperate from the Chantry.

#30511
Danny Boy 7

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Hey guys I was wondering if for those who saw the Hobbit whether or not that has made them want more dwarves in future Dragon Age games. Also whether that also meant that they wanted "sexier" dwarves to have around or are you guys okay with the stocky dwarves we're used to?

#30512
R2s Muse

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Danny Boy 7 wrote...

berelinde wrote...

Factors to consider: there are more mages than templars. Templars will be further divided because some elected to remain with the Chantry, and some ambitous templars probably used the opportunity to promote themselves by creating vacancies in the chain of command. Remember that individual templars aside, the Order has been recruiting heavily from a pool of people who like the idea of dominating others. Evangeline remarks on this in Asunder. Mage fraternities are a little more loosely organized than the templar order, but they aren't really vying with each other for position. Each fraternity elects a spokesperson and that's about it.

Economically, mages are not without resources. The formari are well-known by most people as a source of potions, enchanted items, and healing, so they probably still had avenues of trade open to them. Unlike the templars who do not actually produce anything, the mages have things to sell, which means that they could well have supply lines. Plus, the mages are banding together for survival, not conquest. People fight harder when their lives are at stake.

Andoral's Reach was never intended to be a permanent refuge. Rhys says as much in Asunder. It was where they fled. They intended to gather there until they could come up with some kind of longer-term survival plan, possibly involving dispersal. As the templars were not immediately aware of where they went, it is possible that there was no siege at all. By the time the templars found the site, if they ever did, they may have been long gone.

I do not think the mages have been beaten into the ground quite yet. If they were, Cassandra would not have needed to look for the Champion in the first place.


Just to play devil's advocado there may be two things you are overlooking. First off there is always the possibility that no one wants to trade...with either side. I mean everyone might pull a "Uh...you guys do what you want we'll be over here." unwilling to get involved out of fear of reprisal from the other side should they win. Now that's not to discount the Formari or what they create because afterall the Dwarves are major partners with them albeit it's been through the Templars/Chantry but will those supply lines still be viable now that they don't have that Chantry seal of approval. :P

The second is that while there are definetily more mages, the Templars/Seekers are an army, have fought in wars or the defense of their nations etc while the mages are not. They have children and teenagers, possibly extremely old mages not made more powerful by a Spirit of Faith that can hinder movement and until we learn one way or the other could make up a significant portion or at the very least an inconvenient one.

I'm personally curious however what happened to the Tranquil mages? And what that could mean to the mages war effort.

I think you both make good points. I agree that, going forward, the mages have more resources, particularly since the templars no longer have the Chantry as their sugar mama. But at Andoral's Reach, the mages seemed to be far from a well organized force. They had only just found their way to each other after the fall of the Circles, straggling in in dribs and drabs. They voted for separation and then... what? I'd have to look at the book again, but I had gotten the impression that they were sorta dug in, preparing to repel the templars, but not really tactically established with supply lines and such. Altho, since the templar legion had already set off to confront them there, they must have been there long enough for the templars to hear of it.

Personally, I picture the battle not going well for either side, lots of casualities as they each underestimate the other. I agree with berelinde that the mages are fighting for their lives, but, like Danny said, the templars are professionals.  Ultimately, I see the templars having the slight edge over time, not decimating the mages but eventually causing them to flee. Mind you, I'm just talking about that first battle; I have no idea what will happen over the course of the whole war.

So, coming back to DA3, I honestly would expect Andoral's Reach to be abandoned if we went there post-Asunder. If the templars know about it, it's no longer a haven for mages. I imagine the mage leadership holing up somewhere else that's a bit more secret.

Modifié par R2s Muse, 24 décembre 2012 - 11:49 .


#30513
R2s Muse

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motomotogirl wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

I asked the artist. The Cullen pic above is him holding her staff hostage for a kiss. Clever boy. LOL


It IS beautifully drawn/painted, but it still bothers me... something about his posture and expression and the look on her face. 

MMG, you're not the only one. That's why I wanted to ask. I don't think her expression looks quite as playful as perhaps was  intended. It does sorta look like he's coercing her.

#30514
berelinde

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I wish this forum had multi-quote.

Danny Boy 7 wrote...

Well that was just a bit of possibilities/flavor text for my argument lol. It's true sure enough that Tevinters don't like to share power and in that regard it's not hard to imagine that they'd use anything especially a potentially powerful unleashed rebellion in order to weaken Chantry/Templar/Andrastian forces or at the very least to get Templars the hell out of the Imperium.


The Tevinters don't *want* to evict the templars from the Imperium. The templars form a vital part of their army. If you pursue the "Investigate" options after attempting to give Fenris a Sword of Mercy, he tells you that the Circle of Magi (a Circle in the sense of a council, not a prison) controls both the Imperial Chantry and the Imperial Templar Order. It's possible that the Tevinter templars might want to defect to a land under the Orlesian Chantry if only to get a taste for how it feels when they are the ones calling the shots, but the Circle would attempt to hold on to them because a group of guys with swords and lyrium-imbued arcane abilities is not a bad weapon to use against the Qunari saarebas. Fenris believes that the Qunari are capable of leveling Tevinter, if that was their goal, and states that the only reason that Tevinter is at war with the Qunari at all is because they have been attempting to regain Seheron for the last few decades.

Just to play devil's advocado there may be two things you are overlooking. First off there is always the possibility that no one wants to trade...with either side. I mean everyone might pull a "Uh...you guys do what you want we'll be over here." unwilling to get involved out of fear of reprisal from the other side should they win. Now that's not to discount the Formari or what they create because afterall the Dwarves are major partners with them albeit it's been through the Templars/Chantry but will those supply lines still be viable now that they don't have that Chantry seal of approval. :P

People will *always* want to trade with someone willing to sell them life-saving medicine. There might be a very few people out there who have elected to die because they have moral or philosophical objections to pharmacies, but this goes against human nature. People want to live, and the mages are the only people in Thedas capable of curing disease or healing injuries.

The second is that while there are definetily more mages, the Templars/Seekers are an army, have fought in wars or the defense of their nations etc while the mages are not.

This is factually inaccurate. The Chantry kept mages specifically to use as a weapon. The Fereldan Circle sent mages to Ostagar and later, to assist the Warden, if said Warden did not choose to annul the Circle. The Grey Wardens valued the military prowess of the mages enough to forge a treaty with them. King Maric ruled during a time of peace, but his Orlesian predecessor did not hesitate to enlist the Circle in their war effort against Maric's forces. Have you ever wondered why most mage spells are combat oriented rather than agricultural? It's because mages are trained from birth to be used as a military tool. Uldred is part of the elite council at Ostagar, along with the king, the general of the army, and the leader of the Grey Wardens, and he seems to have considerable say in how his forces are deployed.

The age and physical fitness of mages is irrelevant. Young, old or infirm, mages will fight for their lives. Their "challenge rating" is not affected by their age. A weak and feeble old man poses the same arcane threat as he did thirty years before. No, he can't keep up in a retreat, but his sacrifice would enable others to live.

It probably isn't constructive to think of the mages that elected to remain with the Chantry. They're dead. They would have been the first targets of Lambert's forces. The Divine might have wanted to protect them, but she is one woman. The Right of Annulment is the prerogative of the Grand Clerics, and not all of them would be shy about invoking it.

#30515
berelinde

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R2s Muse wrote...

motomotogirl wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

I asked the artist. The Cullen pic above is him holding her staff hostage for a kiss. Clever boy. LOL


It IS beautifully drawn/painted, but it still bothers me... something about his posture and expression and the look on her face. 

MMG, you're not the only one. That's why I wanted to ask. I don't think her expression looks quite as playful as perhaps was  intended. It does sorta look like he's coercing her.

Yeah, that's putting it mildly. I got a distinct "non-consent" vibe from it, as if Cullen were playing the lusty templar and the hapless apprentice game for real. It's kinda disturbing.

Edit: It's the hand against his chest that does it for me. Her body language isn't saying "Take me, I'm yours!" It's pushing him away. She isn't leaning into a kiss, she's straining toward her staff. Putting her arm around his neck would have helped.

Modifié par berelinde, 24 décembre 2012 - 12:54 .


#30516
R2s Muse

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berelinde wrote...

The second is that while there are definetily more mages, the Templars/Seekers are an army, have fought in wars or the defense of their nations etc while the mages are not.

This is factually inaccurate. The Chantry kept mages specifically to use as a weapon. The Fereldan Circle sent mages to Ostagar and later, to assist the Warden, if said Warden did not choose to annul the Circle. The Grey Wardens valued the military prowess of the mages enough to forge a treaty with them. King Maric ruled during a time of peace, but his Orlesian predecessor did not hesitate to enlist the Circle in their war effort against Maric's forces. Have you ever wondered why most mage spells are combat oriented rather than agricultural? It's because mages are trained from birth to be used as a military tool. Uldred is part of the elite council at Ostagar, along with the king, the general of the army, and the leader of the Grey Wardens, and he seems to have considerable say in how his forces are deployed.

Indeed, many of the mages were battle tested, which I think Wynne talked about at Ostagar, no? But I'll bet many were not. Plus I'd wager there's still a bit of difference between being taught the theory of battle magery and the practice.

You know this makes me think about all the apprentices and kids for the first time.  I don't have any kind of sense of what the balance would be between fully fledged mages and apprentices, but I would be inclined to think there are more of the latter. Of course, did they all make it out of the Circles? Probably less likely, so the remaining mages may be more skewed toward older, more experienced ones.

Modifié par R2s Muse, 24 décembre 2012 - 01:11 .


#30517
R2s Muse

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berelinde wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

motomotogirl wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

I asked the artist. The Cullen pic above is him holding her staff hostage for a kiss. Clever boy. LOL


It IS beautifully drawn/painted, but it still bothers me... something about his posture and expression and the look on her face. 

MMG, you're not the only one. That's why I wanted to ask. I don't think her expression looks quite as playful as perhaps was  intended. It does sorta look like he's coercing her.

Yeah, that's putting it mildly. I got a distinct "non-consent" vibe from it, as if Cullen were playing the lusty templar and the hapless apprentice game for real. It's kinda disturbing.

Edit: It's the hand against his chest that does it for me. Her body language isn't saying "Take me, I'm yours!" It's pushing him away. She isn't leaning into a kiss, she's straining toward her staff. Putting her arm around his neck would have helped.



Good point. I wonder if it's also the perspective on her face... It may be that she's supposed to be looking at him, but she instead seems ONLY focused on getting her staff back. It says, "Sorry Cullen, she's just not that into you."

#30518
berelinde

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R2s Muse wrote...

berelinde wrote...

The second is that while there are definetily more mages, the Templars/Seekers are an army, have fought in wars or the defense of their nations etc while the mages are not.

This is factually inaccurate. The Chantry kept mages specifically to use as a weapon. The Fereldan Circle sent mages to Ostagar and later, to assist the Warden, if said Warden did not choose to annul the Circle. The Grey Wardens valued the military prowess of the mages enough to forge a treaty with them. King Maric ruled during a time of peace, but his Orlesian predecessor did not hesitate to enlist the Circle in their war effort against Maric's forces. Have you ever wondered why most mage spells are combat oriented rather than agricultural? It's because mages are trained from birth to be used as a military tool. Uldred is part of the elite council at Ostagar, along with the king, the general of the army, and the leader of the Grey Wardens, and he seems to have considerable say in how his forces are deployed.

Indeed, many of the mages were battle tested, which I think Wynne talked about at Ostagar, no? But I'll bet many were not. Plus I'd wager there's still a bit of difference between being taught the theory of battle magery and the practice.

Many templars aren't battle-tested, either. They are trained as guards and they are trained to hunt individual apostates, but they have less practical experience with large-scale maneuvers than the mages. Unlike the mages, they are not called upon for civil defense, except to keep the mages coralled while not in use. Mages are mentioned frequently in the Stolen Throne and we see them ourselves in Ostagar and in the final conflict, but templars aren't there. If you save the Circle Tower, Greagoir even tells you that he can't send templars to help you. In the cinematic, you see hundreds of mages marching on Denerim, but not a single templar among them. Sure, the templars probably get rudimentary instruction about theoretical warfare because you never know when some Divine might call an Exalted March, but kings may not requisition templars to fight for them. The only templars you see at Ostagar were guarding the mages. Mages, on the other hand, participate in civil defense literally all the time.

The uniform armor gives the impression that they're more of a unified fighting force than they are in practice. The disruption they face in the wake of Lambert's decision will not enhance their cohesiveness.

You know this makes me think about all the apprentices and kids for the first time.  I don't have any kind of sense of what the balance would be between fully fledged mages and apprentices, but I would be inclined to think there are more of the latter. Of course, did they all make it out of the Circles? Probably less likely, so the remaining mages may be more skewed toward older, more experienced ones.

Why would there be more apprentices than adult mages? Are there more school children than taxpayers? Mages have had access to a good diet and readily available health care in the form of their fellow mages, so they would be even less likely to suffer from the premature effects of aging than the general populace. The leading cause of death in the Circles is by violence - war, suicide, or templar - not disease, so I would expect a median age similar to or slightly higher than the rest of Thedas. Also, children are typically brought to the circle when their abilities first manifest. This seems to be divided between two age groups: those transitioning between infancy and childhood (3-6) and those transitioning between childhood and adulthood (12-15).

Edit: I should probably also add that mages aren't forced into retirement by their lifestyle. Irving's abilities are by no means diminished by age. Even where physical disability does not bench templars, lyrium dependency takes its toll. The elderly templars we have met are as determined to do their duty as ever, but lyrium toxicity forces them to retire to quieter, less demanding postings. I wonder what will happen to these guys once the templars disband. If they remain loyal to the Chantry, I suppose they could enjoy their declining years without the stress of lyrium withdrawal, but if their sense of duty compells them to follow Lambert... yikes.

Modifié par berelinde, 24 décembre 2012 - 02:46 .


#30519
CuriousArtemis

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Danny Boy 7 wrote...

Hey guys I was wondering if for those who saw the Hobbit whether or not that has made them want more dwarves in future Dragon Age games. Also whether that also meant that they wanted "sexier" dwarves to have around or are you guys okay with the stocky dwarves we're used to?


Danny... I feel like this is a trick question... Yes I would love some sexy dwarves :lol:

It is not the stockiness I dislike about dwarves but their massive jaw and facial structures. That's why it's impossible to construct a good-looking dwarf in DA:O. As for Varric, the only thing sexy about him is his voice, his personality, and the way he dresses. He still has the massive jaw, and boy is it ugly!

#30520
CuriousArtemis

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berelinde wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

motomotogirl wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

I asked the artist. The Cullen pic above is him holding her staff hostage for a kiss. Clever boy. LOL


It IS beautifully drawn/painted, but it still bothers me... something about his posture and expression and the look on her face. 

MMG, you're not the only one. That's why I wanted to ask. I don't think her expression looks quite as playful as perhaps was  intended. It does sorta look like he's coercing her.

Yeah, that's putting it mildly. I got a distinct "non-consent" vibe from it, as if Cullen were playing the lusty templar and the hapless apprentice game for real. It's kinda disturbing.

Edit: It's the hand against his chest that does it for me. Her body language isn't saying "Take me, I'm yours!" It's pushing him away. She isn't leaning into a kiss, she's straining toward her staff. Putting her arm around his neck would have helped.


WOW Agree with R2 on your edit; I think that does it. If her hand were around his neck it would suggest that "the lady doth protest too much" and that she DOES like him lol

But here, let's be honest, he looks like a sexual predator.

Which doesn't mean it isn't still good art ^_^

#30521
berelinde

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motomotogirl wrote...

But here, let's be honest, he looks like a sexual predator.

Which doesn't mean it isn't still good art ^_^

Yup. Art is supposed to make you think, not necessarily be easy to look at. If that were the case, I'd have to post something like this.
Image IPB
By smilika

#30522
LolaLei

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Agreed. I mean, the picture is very well done but it does seem a bit sexual predator-ish, as though he's using his authority to force himself on her... Which is a shame since he looks so pretty in it. It's really just the expression and body position of Amell that makes it seem kinda dark.

#30523
LolaLei

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Whereas the one berelinde just posted up feels much more emotional and (from the little we know about Cullen) in character in the way he seems like he's holding back. Even the expression on his face looks pained, as though he knows his feelings for her are "wrong" but he's upset because (presumably) he's gonna lose her or he knows they can't be together etc.

#30524
CuriousArtemis

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I thought it looked like she was touching him in his special place :devil:

#30525
R2s Muse

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motomotogirl wrote...

berelinde wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

motomotogirl wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

I asked the artist. The Cullen pic above is him holding her staff hostage for a kiss. Clever boy. LOL


It IS beautifully drawn/painted, but it still bothers me... something about his posture and expression and the look on her face. 

MMG, you're not the only one. That's why I wanted to ask. I don't think her expression looks quite as playful as perhaps was  intended. It does sorta look like he's coercing her.

Yeah, that's putting it mildly. I got a distinct "non-consent" vibe from it, as if Cullen were playing the lusty templar and the hapless apprentice game for real. It's kinda disturbing.

Edit: It's the hand against his chest that does it for me. Her body language isn't saying "Take me, I'm yours!" It's pushing him away. She isn't leaning into a kiss, she's straining toward her staff. Putting her arm around his neck would have helped.


WOW Agree with R2 on your edit; I think that does it. If her hand were around his neck it would suggest that "the lady doth protest too much" and that she DOES like him lol

But here, let's be honest, he looks like a sexual predator.

Which doesn't mean it isn't still good art ^_^

LOL Agree. Altho, to give credit, it was berelinde's point on the hand position! :)

You know, it's interesting to me to contrast this one with the Amell-Cullen-mistletoe one a few pages back. In principle, Amell has (seemingly) pulled him into a mistletoe-fueled kiss not wholly with his consent. The stakes of both are apparently a kiss. Hmm. Just thinking "out loud," but do you think it's different because (a) female vs. male, (B) power differential of templar "coercing" a mage under his jurisdiction, © in the staff pic, he's disarming her beforehand?, or (d) mistletoe just has its own rules...?

Hmm, heavy thoughts for Christmas eve! LOL :blink: