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[R2s Muse]

Newschmoo wrote...

I did feel for Alain and what happened just made my Hawke more pro-mage, but when he spoke I kept thinking of Ser Wesley (same VA). 

Oh man, I never noticed that!


Edit for ToP: Sad, oblivious Act3!Cullen

Modifié par R2s Muse, 08 janvier 2013 - 09:02 .

[R2s Muse]

berelinde wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...
Wasn't someone at some point going to write a fanfic about how Cullen knew about the abuses and was secretly doing something about it behind the scenes?? Lola, was that one of yours?

I think it was vieralynn.

You know... come to think of it, now I think it might have been SamaraDraven. Hmm...

[Newschmoo]

R2s Muse wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Newschmoo wrote...

I like to believe that if Cullen knew about the abuses he would have tried to do something about it. He seems a person that would want to do the right thing. He did scale the templar ranks quite quickly, so maybe things were kept hidden from him due to resentment or lack of respect by other templars? 

I think the abuses were less a result of rank and more a result of the culture within the Kirkwall templars.  Karras got away with being a dick because he was firmly in Meredith's pocket, and while Cullen was her Knight-Captain, he was never her crony like some of the more extreme templars.  Alrik I have a harder time justifying, but since Ella refers to "Ser Alrik's men" rather than the templars in general, I'd say Alrik managed to gather a few of scumbags personally loyal to him, and kept his atrocities hidden from Meredith and Cullen as best he could.

This is my view as well, that although he was promoted early and quickly for his past experiences, he probably was never in Meredith's inner circle.

I'm also less certain about his knowledge of Alrik. He seems to know all about Alrik's death and his "Tranquil Solution." Plus, with Tranquil ladies traipsing about the Gallows' courtyard talking about how they belong to Alrik... how could he not have known?!? Of course, I can make up a number of theories for why he was out of the loop, or even doing his best behind the scenes, but it could just be "oblivious" as DG also calls him. LOL

Yes, I remember that scene when Hawke confronted him with the note. I did feel a little uncomfortable.  

In one of my current playthoughs, I killed Karras early on, so Alain was safe later on!  The VA for Alain also did Daveth's voice in DAO too!  He gets around...

[CuriousArtemis]

R2s Muse wrote...

I'm also less certain about his knowledge of Alrik. He seems to know all about Alrik's death and his "Tranquil Solution." Plus, with Tranquil ladies traipsing about the Gallows' courtyard talking about how they belong to Alrik... how could he not have known?!? Of course, I can make up a number of theories for why he was out of the loop, or even doing his best behind the scenes, but it could just be "oblivious" as DG also calls him. LOL

Honestly, I kind of like the idea of Cullen being aware of what was happening and not doing NOTHING... but more like, not doing enough. He just seems like the kind of guy who would "do everything he could" and "within his power" to be the voice of reason and compassion, but that this is just something he would tell himself, when in fact in retrospect he realizes he was sitting on his hands and LETTING terrible things happen because he didn't have the guts to do something drastic, like relieve Meredith of duty (assuming she knew about it).

So then we would have a guilty Cullen, which makes for a fascinating character, and someon who is still inherently a good guy, but it's like the 98% of us who would watch a bully and do nothing, you know...?

I think I will write that cuddly Cullen x Alain fic Maybe bend some canon and have Cullen kill Karas or something lol 

[Koffeegirl]

Hello, everyone-I am a huge Cullen fan and have been lurking this thread for a while and thought I'd come out of lurkerdom to say hi. I enjoy the pics everyone posts and the Cullen discussion. I really hope he is a companion for DAI and that we get some more backstory on him. I also like the idea that motomotogirl suggests about Cullen trying to prevent the corruption in the Templar ranks, but not doing enough.

[littlenikki]

Hi Koffeegirl, glad to have you join us!

[Narcia_]

Thanks for de-lurking Koffeegirl. Welcome : )

[LolaLei]

Welcome! It's a shame that you've caught us during a dry spell. This thread can really move when we've got stuff to talk about lol.

[Koffeegirl]

Thanks for the welcome. Lol, hopefully, in the spring the devs will gift us with some Cullen news for DAI. In the meantime, I will have to replay DA2 to get my Cullen fix:)

[Narcia_]

motomotogirl wrote...

Honestly, I kind of like the idea of Cullen being aware of what was happening and not doing NOTHING... but more like, not doing enough. He just seems like the kind of guy who would "do everything he could" and "within his power" to be the voice of reason and compassion, but that this is just something he would tell himself, when in fact in retrospect he realizes he was sitting on his hands and LETTING terrible things happen because he didn't have the guts to do something drastic, like relieve Meredith of duty (assuming she knew about it).

So then we would have a guilty Cullen, which makes for a fascinating character, and someone who is still inherently a good guy, but it's like the 98% of us who would watch a bully and do nothing, you know...?

I think I will write that cuddly Cullen x Alain fic Maybe bend some canon and have Cullen kill Karas or something lol 

Interesting idea MMG. I definitely don't see him as a person who'd be comfortable standing by if he knew abuses like that were happening, but I can absolutely see him beating himself up about not having done enough after the fact. After he first arrived in Kirkwall and was still suffering some major PTSD, I'm sure he really would have needed to believe in the templar order, and a strong leader like Meredith who's full of conviction.  He was probably out of the loop for quite a while, at least in the begining. Whether that was due to him being withdrawn, or being oblivious, or turning a blind eye ... that's open to plenty of speculation.

[Shades_Of_Pale]

Darn, seems I have come late but welcome koffeegirl!

[R2s Muse]

Welcome, koffeegirl! We love delurkers!

MMG, hope you do write that fic about Alain! Hopefully including some Karras whoop@ss. LOL

Personally, I also headcanon that Cullen was doing something but not enough. Not so much that he was sitting on his hands, but that he's a rule follower and there's only so much he could do within the ranks and within the rules.

I think early on, it's likely he was out of the loop with a lot of what happened. For example, maybe Alrik's death finally brought to light all his actions. But by Act 3, Cullen's gotta know at least some of it. In talking with him in the Gallows, I always feel like he's sort of weary when telling me the party line. He almost never tells you what he thinks, but always talks in generalities like he doesn't want to reveal too much to Hawke.

So what can he do? If Cullen's a rule follower, and If Meredith stands behind her knights and their extreme behavior, what can he do except overthrow her? I see that being a radical move for him, which he wouldn't be ready to do until the end. So, I imagine him pushing and pulling in little ways behind the scenes to do what he can, but that he's frustrated at how little he can do.

LOL I actually just wrote a story (sort of ) about that for DA Big Bang which will come out next month.

[meanieweenie]

R2 - I'm finding it amusing that your headcannon is shaping mine from all your fanfic. LOL I think it's the logicality (is that even a word?) of it all. If I want Cullen to be one of the good guys then he would have to be 'hands tied' by the orders rules right up to the event horizon of Meredith's nuttiness.

[R2s Muse]

meanieweenie wrote...

R2 - I'm finding it amusing that your headcannon is shaping mine from all your fanfic. LOL I think it's the logicality (is that even a word?) of it all. If I want Cullen to be one of the good guys then he would have to be 'hands tied' by the orders rules right up to the event horizon of Meredith's nuttiness.

LOL Not sure if I should apologize!! 

Also loving that you slipped in some black hole terminology there... heh heh, she said event horizon... heh heh

[meanieweenie]

And you just made a BFF of stalker proportions with the Beavis and Butthead. Let's head to the Chantry and get eMarried. LOL

[R2s Muse]

meanieweenie wrote...

And you just made a BFF of stalker proportions with the Beavis and Butthead. Let's head to the Chantry and get eMarried. LOL

xoxo Back at ya! 

[LolaLei]

R2s Muse wrote...

Welcome, koffeegirl! We love delurkers!

MMG, hope you do write that fic about Alain! Hopefully including some Karras whoop@ss. LOL

Personally, I also headcanon that Cullen was doing something but not enough. Not so much that he was sitting on his hands, but that he's a rule follower and there's only so much he could do within the ranks and within the rules.

I think early on, it's likely he was out of the loop with a lot of what happened. For example, maybe Alrik's death finally brought to light all his actions. But by Act 3, Cullen's gotta know at least some of it. In talking with him in the Gallows, I always feel like he's sort of weary when telling me the party line. He almost never tells you what he thinks, but always talks in generalities like he doesn't want to reveal too much to Hawke.

So what can he do? If Cullen's a rule follower, and If Meredith stands behind her knights and their extreme behavior, what can he do except overthrow her? I see that being a radical move for him, which he wouldn't be ready to do until the end. So, I imagine him pushing and pulling in little ways behind the scenes to do what he can, but that he's frustrated at how little he can do.

LOL I actually just wrote a story (sort of ) about that for DA Big Bang which will come out next month.

Something that always throws me off with that theory is when Hawke 'n' co kill Alrik 'n' co etc Cullen seems outraged by it. Now, surely if he's the "good guy" Gaider claims then in theory he would've have reacted less outraged about his death, which makes me think that perhaps he had no clue all that was going on at all.

I mean, I'm sure he was aware about some of the torture dished out to certain mages (like the blood mages etc) BUT I don't know if he'd be pleased to find out that "good" mages were being tortured for no reason, and as for the rape, there's no excuse for that, if he knew what the "bad" Templars were up to then surely his reaction to their deaths would've been  less extreme. Plus, Cullen makes a comment about hoping Alain can find peace within the Circles walls... surely if he knew the poor guy was getting bummed into next week then he wouldn't have said something like that?

[R2s Muse]

LolaLei wrote...

Something that always throws me off with that theory is when Hawke 'n' co kill Alrik 'n' co etc Cullen seems outraged by it. Now, surely if he's the "good guy" Gaider claims then in theory he would've have reacted less outraged about his death, which makes me think that perhaps he had no clue all that was going on at all.

Hmm, I don't know that I would expect him to not be outraged about someone under his command dying, but to be honest, I always felt like he was more hinting at Hawke to be more circumspect about openly discussing a dude that he/she just killed. What was it... something  like, "I won't ask you how you came by the effects of a man recently murdered within our walls..." ?  I was just thinking that a subordinate, dying on your watch, within our own walls, and murdered by your "friend" Hawke would be worthy of using an arch tone with Hawke. I guess I wouldn't expect Cullen to clap him on the back and say, "Good job. He was a waste of space," if you know what I mean.

But getting back to your original point, which is whether he sounds like he knew what was going on... Yeah, I don't know.

I mean, I'm sure he was aware about some of the torture dished out to certain mages (like the blood mages etc) BUT I don't know if he'd be pleased to find out that "good" mages were being tortured for no reason, and as for the rape, there's no excuse for that, if he knew what the "bad" Templars were up to then surely his reaction to their deaths would've been  less extreme. Plus, Cullen makes a comment about hoping Alain can find peace within the Circles walls... surely if he knew the poor guy was getting bummed into next week then he wouldn't have said something like that?

Agree. He can't really have known the full extent of what *continued* to happen to Alain, 'cause that's some serious sh!t. In Best Served Cold, I don't know if it changes based on Karras being alive/dead, but Alain says something like "the templars... ask things of you." That always made it sound on-going and perhaps not just one person.

So yeah, hard to say what Cullen could really have done... but if he really knew all of that... he better have been doing SOMETHING.

Modifié par R2s Muse, 09 janvier 2013 - 06:19 .

[LolaLei]

R2s Muse wrote...

So yeah, hard to say what Cullen could really have done... but if he really knew all of that... he better have been doing SOMETHING.

I seriously hope it's addressed and clarified in DA3. It would certain put a stop to the wild speculation and shut the haters up if it turns out that he was either A) unaware or put a stop to it, or at least tried to.

I think I'd like to see him lamenting about how he felt like he didn't do enough for the mages in general etc, perhaps in DA3 he'd end up doing something to "put things right" (hopefully not at the expense of his life).

[R2s Muse]

LolaLei wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

So yeah, hard to say what Cullen could really have done... but if he really knew all of that... he better have been doing SOMETHING.

I seriously hope it's addressed and clarified in DA3. It would certain put a stop to the wild speculation and shut the haters up if it turns out that he was either A) unaware or put a stop to it, or at least tried to.

I think I'd like to see him lamenting about how he felt like he didn't do enough for the mages in general etc, perhaps in DA3 he'd end up doing something to "put things right" (hopefully not at the expense of his life).

That would be a great way to do it!!  Alternatively... makes me want to send DG an ask on tumblr... <_< Inquiring, often-persecuted Cullen-fans want to know!

Modifié par R2s Muse, 09 janvier 2013 - 07:00 .

[berelinde]

R2s Muse wrote...

I think early on, it's likely he was out of the loop with a lot of what happened. For example, maybe Alrik's death finally brought to light all his actions. But by Act 3, Cullen's gotta know at least some of it. In talking with him in the Gallows, I always feel like he's sort of weary when telling me the party line. He almost never tells you what he thinks, but always talks in generalities like he doesn't want to reveal too much to Hawke. 

I know you posted this hours ago, but I'm not always able to keep up.

In Act 1, I'd agree with your assessment that he had absolutely no idea what was going on. OK, he probably noticed that templars in Kirkwall were allowed a lot more liberty to pursue their prurient inclinations than those in Lake Calenhad, but he probably attributed that to the fact that there was nothing between the Gallows and the Red Lantern District but a ferry ride and a flight of stairs. He probably had no idea that his fellow templars were in the habit of poking the mages. Given Greagoir's prohibition against fraternization, it wouldn't have occurred to him to ask. He would not have found out about Alain, though. Hawke finds out because Alain trusts him/her. Alain has learned the hard way not to trust templars.

Even in Act 2, he would have had to know that something was going on. He would have had to notice how many more Tranquil there were wandering around, and he would have had to have noticed how many more pregnancies there were among the mages (maybe I'm mistaken, but I seem to remember one Tranquil mage saying that she was carrying Alrik's child...). In any event, the mages, Tranquil or otherwise, weren't shy about talking about Alrik in ambient dialogue. He would have heard. Maybe Cullen attributed it to Alrik being a sicko rather than a system-wide failure. Regardless, templars close ranks to protect their own. It's only natural. Friend or not, Hawke is an outsider in the Gallows, and I would not expect Cullen to air the Order's dirty laundry where Hawke could see it. Whatever his private feelings on the subject, I would expect him to toe the party line in public, and he isn't the one who decides where that line lies.

By Act 3, he really does resemble a politician's weary aide. He strikes me as someone who is sick of having to defend his boss and resentful of the need to do it. He seems to realize that his Order is losing public confidence and public trust, but he signed on for the duration. While there is a Knight-Commander in Kirkwall, he is sworn to stand by her.

[meanieweenie]

R2s Muse wrote...
 That would be a great way to do it!!  Alternatively... makes we want to send DG an ask on tumblr... <_< Inquiring, often-persecuted Cullen-fans want to know!

I suddenly got a vision of Dorothy walking up to that projection of the giant head with the flames shooting up to ask the Wizard for help. LOL

Cullen fan: "Oh great and powerful Gaider... <curtsey>... if you please sir... could you clarify..."
DG: "SILENCE FOOL!"
*Cullen fan runs screaming and jumps out window*

[LolaLei]

R2s Muse wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

So yeah, hard to say what Cullen could really have done... but if he really knew all of that... he better have been doing SOMETHING.

I seriously hope it's addressed and clarified in DA3. It would certain put a stop to the wild speculation and shut the haters up if it turns out that he was either A) unaware or put a stop to it, or at least tried to.

I think I'd like to see him lamenting about how he felt like he didn't do enough for the mages in general etc, perhaps in DA3 he'd end up doing something to "put things right" (hopefully not at the expense of his life).

That would be a great way to do it!!  Alternatively... makes me want to send DG an ask on tumblr... <_< Inquiring, often-persecuted Cullen-fans want to know!

Y'know, if worded correctly we might actually get a reply from him... and if he doesn't reply/tells us he can't answer the question or is only vague about it then we can safely presume that it'll be addressed in DA3.

[R2s Muse]

meanieweenie wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...
 That would be a great way to do it!!  Alternatively... makes we want to send DG an ask on tumblr... <_< Inquiring, often-persecuted Cullen-fans want to know!

I suddenly got a vision of Dorothy walking up to that projection of the giant head with the flames shooting up to ask the Wizard for help. LOL

Cullen fan: "Oh great and powerful Gaider... <curtsey>... if you please sir... could you clarify..."
DG: "SILENCE FOOL!"
*Cullen fan runs screaming and jumps out window*

LOL This is my fear as well.


But, maybe Lola's right, and it could be done in such a way that he'd answer. Seems pretty specific, though, for the questions he's chosen to answer so far. And,  I think with the Anders post, he said something about being reluctant to answer lots of character specific questions...?

Modifié par R2s Muse, 09 janvier 2013 - 07:17 .

[meanieweenie]

lmvao! That's exactly what was in my head, R2.

I would think a more specific question would be easier to answer. But if he's not wanting to give that answer, for whatever reason, then at least we'll know point blank. Then we have something new to speculate to death. "Why wouldn't he answer?" lol