89415 réponses à ce sujet

[vieralynn]

R2s Muse wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

A few pages back we were talking about evidence of rapey, wrongdoings in the Gallows and I thought I recalled a disturbing random banter you hear in the courtyard. Well, I think THIS is it, but it's also just about Ser Alrik again. :shudder:

Those two made me sad, it's obvious he's making the women tranquil so he can rape them without fear of them reporting him. Sick ****, Cullen should have beaten him to within an inch of his life... Man that would have been hot. 

You know... someone needs to write this. And... not just because it would be kinda hot. Cullen as righteous god of vengeance would be... well... okay... hot.

What if... Cullen did this and then... leaked info about evil Ser Alrik to the mage underground? With the idea that they would "take care of" him, since he couldn't directly. And, that's why he's all laissez faire about not asking about how Hawke came by the personal effects one so recently murdered within their own walls. Hmm, I wonder if that would work as a story.

How cool would it be if he had been the one leaking information to the mage underground! Not because he was a secret mage sympathiser, but simply in order to remove "undesirables" without having to report it to Meredith, who, probably wouldn't do anything about it anyway. Chances are it was probably Ser Thrask who was helping the mage underground though.

Yeah, you're probably right about Thrask. But... hmm, I could see Alrik being a special problem. Requiring a special, one-time solution. *sigh* Plot bunny! Somebody catch it!

It's an interesting plot bunny. I've wondered about it for quite a while because it was very odd how Cullen almost shrugs off Hawke having something that belonged to the recently murdered Alrik. I almost think that Cullen was more bothered that a murder happened within the Gallows rather. Had Alrik been murdered on the Wounded Coast, I wonder if Cullen would have been disturbed at all.

But, I feel that it is a little out of character for Cullen to leak info about someone's wrong doings in order to invite someone to severely punish or kill that person.  On the other hand, having Cullen confront Alrik over misbehavior would be make for a very interesting story.

Over the summer I plan on writing a Cullen in Kirkwall epic and I'm still trying to decide how he handled matters inside the Gallows. I suspect that a lot of things happened behind his back and that his level of responsibility was far more than the real authority he had. He's much younger than many of the other templars and many of them seemed to have side projects (Alrik's rape ring, Thrask's revolutionary mage-templar experiment) that no one else knew about. Cullen often appears a little clueless. 

[vieralynn]

LolaLei wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

VampOrchid wrote...

And more Cullen lol

http://gamergirl32.d...n-age-302774671

OH my stars. The images this one conjures... I think I'll choose... sinister. LOL

He can give me a good smiting any day!

Ha!  Definitely sinister! Smite away Ser Cullen. Go ahead, I dare you. 

[brushyourteeth]

You guys may have already seen this, but I thought it was adorable!


art by SilverHyena

[R2s Muse]

vieralynn wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

So I was thinking, In DA:O Templar's take a vow of chasity which was retconned in DA2. Why do you think they retconned it? Was it purely for the sake of Aveline and her husband Wesley? Could it have been for the amusment of seeing Templars get their kicks in the Blooming Rose? Or something else?

I feel like there's a small chance that they retconned it because of Cullen, perhaps they hadn't expected the attention he would attract from the female mage origins, gave it some thought and retconned it, using Cullen in a bigger role in DA2 as a trial & error experiment to see how he's recieved, with the possibility of using him as a companion/LI in DA3.

,,, Then again, that seems like an awful lot of trouble to go to for one NPC. Meh, probably just my wishful thinking.

I don't remember anyting in DA:O saying that templars take a vow of chastity. Also, David Gaider has addressed this issue on another thread.  Templars assigned to remote Circle Towers are going to have very limited ability to carry on an above-the-board sexual relationship and/or marriage purely because of where they are stationed. 

David Gaider wrote...

Templars do not take vows of chastity.

Chantry priests are considered "married" to the Maker-- though it's not an actual marriage, just a spiritual one-- and thus are indeed celibate.

For templars, the situation is not quite the same. Their duties require them to be dedicated to their duties-- they're going to live in a Circle of Magi (which does not have room for spouses and families) or a chantry, or otherwise be pre-occupied. Marriage is impractical, and the Chantry thus discourages such marriages as having dependants introduces complications that templars can do without (as well as a potential means of leverage).

That said, the Chantry does occasionally give permission for templars to marry, provided the spouse has their own means of support. This is often the case when the spouse owns land or a title. Even so, considering the spouse wouldn't be able to see the templar often, it's not going to happen frequently. Before anyone asks, the Chantry also discourages templars from marrying each other even more so-- that's considered fraternization within the ranks (the templars are run as a military order, remember, and possess the same discipline).

Mages within the Circle are permitted to marry, but it's impractical with outsiders and they also must get permission from the Chantry (so it might be considered a reward for good behavior). Even so, the culture within the typical Circle of Magi tends to make mages unwilling to marry. The policy on fraternization will depend on the individual Circle-- some forbid it, while others do not, though in either case it still occurs. Considering mages live outside normal culture, they also consider themselves free of cultural conventions (especially those who were raised in a Circle from a young age) and thus tend to be quite liberal in their views.

Whew! Okay-- verbose answer of the day. Time for coffee. 

I think Lola's point was that this clarification by DG came well after DA:O, which (in my opinion) gave the impression that Templars were so limited. The Chantry Hierarchy codex, for example, suggests that templars are actually initiates. "Only those folk who take vows become initiates. These are men and women
in training, whether in academic knowledge or the martial skills of a
warrior. All initiates receive an academic education, although only
those who seek to become templars learn how to fight in addition." 

So, while I don't believe they said outright in DA:O that celibacy is part of those vows, it always seemed implied (like in the interpretation of this greywardens.com article). Frankly, the "it's okay if they get permission" notion sounds hugely retconned to me. It could be what they intended all along, who knows, but I honestly figured it was all because of their idea for  Aveline & Wesley.

Modifié par R2s Muse, 18 mai 2012 - 06:25 .

[R2s Muse]

vieralynn wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

A few pages back we were talking about evidence of rapey, wrongdoings in the Gallows and I thought I recalled a disturbing random banter you hear in the courtyard. Well, I think THIS is it, but it's also just about Ser Alrik again. :shudder:

Those two made me sad, it's obvious he's making the women tranquil so he can rape them without fear of them reporting him. Sick ****, Cullen should have beaten him to within an inch of his life... Man that would have been hot. 

You know... someone needs to write this. And... not just because it would be kinda hot. Cullen as righteous god of vengeance would be... well... okay... hot.

What if... Cullen did this and then... leaked info about evil Ser Alrik to the mage underground? With the idea that they would "take care of" him, since he couldn't directly. And, that's why he's all laissez faire about not asking about how Hawke came by the personal effects one so recently murdered within their own walls. Hmm, I wonder if that would work as a story.

How cool would it be if he had been the one leaking information to the mage underground! Not because he was a secret mage sympathiser, but simply in order to remove "undesirables" without having to report it to Meredith, who, probably wouldn't do anything about it anyway. Chances are it was probably Ser Thrask who was helping the mage underground though.

Yeah, you're probably right about Thrask. But... hmm, I could see Alrik being a special problem. Requiring a special, one-time solution. *sigh* Plot bunny! Somebody catch it!

It's an interesting plot bunny. I've wondered about it for quite a while because it was very odd how Cullen almost shrugs off Hawke having something that belonged to the recently murdered Alrik. I almost think that Cullen was more bothered that a murder happened within the Gallows rather. Had Alrik been murdered on the Wounded Coast, I wonder if Cullen would have been disturbed at all.

But, I feel that it is a little out of character for Cullen to leak info about someone's wrong doings in order to invite someone to severely punish or kill that person.  On the other hand, having Cullen confront Alrik over misbehavior would be make for a very interesting story.

That's probably true. I wonder if perhaps it was an unfortunate side effect of something more noble he was attempting. Like maybe... saving Ella (or whatever her name is) from Alrik's predations and turning a blind eye on her escape.  Hmmm... Or maybe he just wasn't surprised because he knew Alrik had it coming. :shrug:

Over the summer I plan on writing a Cullen in Kirkwall epic and I'm still trying to decide how he handled matters inside the Gallows. I suspect that a lot of things happened behind his back and that his level of responsibility was far more than the real authority he had. He's much younger than many of the other templars and many of them seemed to have side projects (Alrik's rape ring, Thrask's revolutionary mage-templar experiment) that no one else knew about. Cullen often appears a little clueless. 

Awesome! Can't wait!  It would be interesting to see the Gallows' inner workings. I could see Meredith's most favored (and evil) knights closing rank on him, and he ends up inevitably in dark about a lot of bad stuff that goes down.

And, of course, I think DG described Cullen as "oblivious." LOL

Modifié par R2s Muse, 18 mai 2012 - 06:38 .

[vieralynn]

R2s Muse: Celibacy - I guess it didn't feel like a retcon to me. More like a detail that just hadn't been explored in DAO. But, DAO definitely left me with the impression that templars in Ferelden's Circle had essentially had no opportunities for any sort of intimate relationships at all. (I don't automatically associate "religious initiate" with vows of celibacy, but that's just me.)

I think Cullen's obliviousness has saved him from seeing and emotionally dealing with the real horrors that were going on. I often imagine him as an idealist who believes that everything *should* work in real life just like the ideal description. Thus, unless someone pushes his nose right into the real-world mess that is actually occurring, he just refuses to believe that a situation has drifted so far away from the ideal.

[SamaraDraven]

R2s Muse wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

A few pages back we were talking about evidence of rapey, wrongdoings in the Gallows and I thought I recalled a disturbing random banter you hear in the courtyard. Well, I think THIS is it, but it's also just about Ser Alrik again. :shudder:

Those two made me sad, it's obvious he's making the women tranquil so he can rape them without fear of them reporting him. Sick ****, Cullen should have beaten him to within an inch of his life... Man that would have been hot. 

You know... someone needs to write this. And... not just because it would be kinda hot. Cullen as righteous god of vengeance would be... well... okay... hot.

What if... Cullen did this and then... leaked info about evil Ser Alrik to the mage underground? With the idea that they would "take care of" him, since he couldn't directly. And, that's why he's all laissez faire about not asking about how Hawke came by the personal effects one so recently murdered within their own walls. Hmm, I wonder if that would work as a story.

If I were to write this... Do you ladies prefer graphic depictions of what Alrik is doing or non-graphic? Or merely alluded to? I only ask because I couldn't no take a stab at it and wound up making a plot device for the story. It's not a necessary one but it makes it longer and more... heartwrenching. If graphic stuff isn't your cup of tea, I can scale it back or change it up. I'm actually kind of ashamed I wrote any of this but I truly hate Alrik. I kind of wanted to make him seem as monstrous as possible. This bunny just will not let me go...

[vieralynn]

SamaraDraven: I've written some brutally graphic fiction in other fandoms so I'm not bothered by it. I'd say go with whatever makes your story the strongest and let the bunny write itself, but that's just me.

[vieralynn]

brushyourteeth wrote...

You guys may have already seen this, but I thought it was adorable!


art by SilverHyena

 
Haha! This is one of my faves. I love the "the archdemon likes this" and Aveline's awkwardness is great. 

[LolaLei]

vieralynn wrote...

R2s Muse: Celibacy - I guess it didn't feel like a retcon to me. More like a detail that just hadn't been explored in DAO. But, DAO definitely left me with the impression that templars in Ferelden's Circle had essentially had no opportunities for any sort of intimate relationships at all. (I don't automatically associate "religious initiate" with vows of celibacy, but that's just me.)

I think Cullen's obliviousness has saved him from seeing and emotionally dealing with the real horrors that were going on. I often imagine him as an idealist who believes that everything *should* work in real life just like the ideal description. Thus, unless someone pushes his nose right into the real-world mess that is actually occurring, he just refuses to believe that a situation has drifted so far away from the ideal.

That being said, Aveline and Wesley were from Ferelden, so wouldn't Wesley have been based in the same Circle as Cullen?

I guess I was under the impression that in DA:O the Templar's took a vow of chasity... I swear I read it in one of the codex's but I can't find it. I'll have to load up my DA:O save and have a look at some point.

[LolaLei]

Samara: I'd say make it graphic... maybe not in a "he took his throbbing member and pillaged her village" kinda way, but it in a sensible, heart wrenching way... if that make sense?

[SamaraDraven]

LolaLei wrote...

Samara: I'd say make it graphic... maybe not in a "he took his throbbing member and pillaged her village" kinda way, but it in a sensible, heart wrenching way... if that make sense?

It does. The heartwrenching part comes a little later but what causes it is somewhat graphic. So far the story has taken me where it wants to go and I'm letting it. Thanks for the feedback. And thank you, vieralynn. I hope this goes well. I don't often write non/dub-con.

[LolaLei]

brushyourteeth wrote...

You guys may have already seen this, but I thought it was adorable!


art by SilverHyena

D'awwww!!! I that's ridiculously cute! Poor old Cullen.

[SamaraDraven]

LolaLei wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

You guys may have already seen this, but I thought it was adorable!


art by SilverHyena

D'awwww!!! I that's ridiculously cute! Poor old Cullen.

That is cuuuute! I just wanna smish sad!Cullen to pieces. And Aveline: how typical.

[LolaLei]

Actually, that little comic up there makes me wonder what Cullen's reaction was upon finding out Amell/Surana was in a relationship with Alistair/Zev/Leliana, it's highly likely that whoever she's in a relationship with, the gossip would have spread its way to Cullen some how be it during or after the Blight.

*Edit* He must of had some feelings about it, even after he was horrible to her during the Broken Circle quest.

Modifié par LolaLei, 18 mai 2012 - 07:49 .

[vieralynn]

LolaLei wrote...

Actually, that little comic up there makes me wonder what Cullen's reaction was upon finding out Amell/Surana was in a relationship with Alistair/Zev/Leliana, it's highly likely that whoever she's in a relationship with, the gossip would have spread its way to Cullen some how be it during or after the Blight.

*Edit* He must of had some feelings about it, even after he was horrible to her during the Broken Circle quest.

That's my headcanon. I just haven't had time to put it into fiction yet.

[vieralynn]

LolaLei wrote...

vieralynn wrote...

R2s Muse: Celibacy - I guess it didn't feel like a retcon to me. More like a detail that just hadn't been explored in DAO. But, DAO definitely left me with the impression that templars in Ferelden's Circle had essentially had no opportunities for any sort of intimate relationships at all. (I don't automatically associate "religious initiate" with vows of celibacy, but that's just me.)

I think Cullen's obliviousness has saved him from seeing and emotionally dealing with the real horrors that were going on. I often imagine him as an idealist who believes that everything *should* work in real life just like the ideal description. Thus, unless someone pushes his nose right into the real-world mess that is actually occurring, he just refuses to believe that a situation has drifted so far away from the ideal.

That being said, Aveline and Wesley were from Ferelden, so wouldn't Wesley have been based in the same Circle as Cullen?

I guess I was under the impression that in DA:O the Templar's took a vow of chasity... I swear I read it in one of the codex's but I can't find it. I'll have to load up my DA:O save and have a look at some point.

Templars were based out of chantries and put in variety of locations around Ferelden. Only some where in the Circle and Wesley says something about where he's from (it is vague, but it doesn't appear to be the circle).

I swear I didn't see anything the codex about vows of chastity.

Unforunately, I have almost no access to video games right now so memory is what it is....

[R2s Muse]

SamaraDraven wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

Samara: I'd say make it graphic... maybe not in a "he took his throbbing member and pillaged her village" kinda way, but it in a sensible, heart wrenching way... if that make sense?

It does. The heartwrenching part comes a little later but what causes it is somewhat graphic. So far the story has taken me where it wants to go and I'm letting it. Thanks for the feedback. And thank you, vieralynn. I hope this goes well. I don't often write non/dub-con.

Oh wow, can't wait to read this! Indeed, I second the comment that you should tell the story as you see fit. Of course, non/dub-con also isn't a trigger for me personally, but if there's a warning, I'd say you're good.

Glad someone took hold of that bunny... trying deperately not get further sidetracked from other my other story...

[LolaLei]

Whats a dub-con?

[vieralynn]

LolaLei wrote...

Whats a dub-con?

Dubious consent. 

[LolaLei]

vieralynn wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

Whats a dub-con?

Dubious consent. 

Ah!

[vieralynn]

SamaraDraven wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

Samara: I'd say make it graphic... maybe not in a "he took his throbbing member and pillaged her village" kinda way, but it in a sensible, heart wrenching way... if that make sense?

It does. The heartwrenching part comes a little later but what causes it is somewhat graphic. So far the story has taken me where it wants to go and I'm letting it. Thanks for the feedback. And thank you, vieralynn. I hope this goes well. I don't often write non/dub-con.

When I've written flat-out non-con, one trick I've used to make it realistic is to keep the sex/rape part as short and plain as possible. Most of the suspense/horror comes from the long, fearful build up. It isn't always everyone's cup of tea, but if the idea is to criminalize the sexual act, imo, the description needs to feel criminal and reflect the criminal's mindset, either through the criminal's POV, the victim experiencing the violation, or a neutral narrator's description. Definately no throbbing members pillaging the village. (that's a good one!!)   

While milage may vary, I've always treated dub-con as something that can be hot, even if only the reader thinks it is hot and non-con as definitely not hot, definitely wrong, and definitely criminal.

I'm really looking forward to this plot bunny running wild with words. 

[LolaLei]

Samara: Is it gonna be a Cullen fic, where he kicks seven shades of sh!t out of some rapey Templars?

[R2s Muse]

vieralynn wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

vieralynn wrote...

R2s Muse: Celibacy - I guess it didn't feel like a retcon to me. More like a detail that just hadn't been explored in DAO. But, DAO definitely left me with the impression that templars in Ferelden's Circle had essentially had no opportunities for any sort of intimate relationships at all. (I don't automatically associate "religious initiate" with vows of celibacy, but that's just me.)

I think Cullen's obliviousness has saved him from seeing and emotionally dealing with the real horrors that were going on. I often imagine him as an idealist who believes that everything *should* work in real life just like the ideal description. Thus, unless someone pushes his nose right into the real-world mess that is actually occurring, he just refuses to believe that a situation has drifted so far away from the ideal.

That being said, Aveline and Wesley were from Ferelden, so wouldn't Wesley have been based in the same Circle as Cullen?

I guess I was under the impression that in DA:O the Templar's took a vow of chasity... I swear I read it in one of the codex's but I can't find it. I'll have to load up my DA:O save and have a look at some point.

Templars were based out of chantries and put in variety of locations around Ferelden. Only some where in the Circle and Wesley says something about where he's from (it is vague, but it doesn't appear to be the circle).

I swear I didn't see anything the codex about vows of chastity.

Unforunately, I have almost no access to video games right now so memory is what it is....

I've also looked through most of the codexes on that, due to past... erm... discussions about the topic, and I'm also pretty sure it didn't say explicitly that they take a vow of celibacy/chastity (which I guess aren't actually the same thing...). I don't fully recall all the DA:O dialogue, though, so there could be some nuggets there.

Interestingly, in the Felicia Day DA: Redemption, the templar says "as templars we're not allowed to marry. we're married to the church." Heh heh. Tsk Tsk.

So, anyway, it may not be an actual retcon... it just feels so handwavey to me, due to the extra special circumstances of it.  "Weeelll, it could happen, we never said it couldn't, but only for special people with special permission, like this brand new character we just came up with."  But, the impracticality of relationships for templars certainly make sense to me.

Lola, incidentally, I believe all the codexes are on the wiki, which may easier to search than save games.

And, re: Wesley,  I was trying to remember exactly where Wesley was stationed. It wasn't the Chantry in Lothering but otherwise I don't know. All he says in the beginning is he was traveling to Denerim on business when he was attacked. In the Aveline short story, she met him near somewhere called Dales End.

Modifié par R2s Muse, 18 mai 2012 - 08:34 .

[R2s Muse]

vieralynn wrote...

SamaraDraven wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

Samara: I'd say make it graphic... maybe not in a "he took his throbbing member and pillaged her village" kinda way, but it in a sensible, heart wrenching way... if that make sense?

It does. The heartwrenching part comes a little later but what causes it is somewhat graphic. So far the story has taken me where it wants to go and I'm letting it. Thanks for the feedback. And thank you, vieralynn. I hope this goes well. I don't often write non/dub-con.

When I've written flat-out non-con, one trick I've used to make it realistic is to keep the sex/rape part as short and plain as possible. Most of the suspense/horror comes from the long, fearful build up. It isn't always everyone's cup of tea, but if the idea is to criminalize the sexual act, imo, the description needs to feel criminal and reflect the criminal's mindset, either through the criminal's POV, the victim experiencing the violation, or a neutral narrator's description. Definately no throbbing members pillaging the village. (that's a good one!!)   

While milage may vary, I've always treated dub-con as something that can be hot, even if only the reader thinks it is hot and non-con as definitely not hot, definitely wrong, and definitely criminal.

I'm really looking forward to this plot bunny running wild with words. 

Ah, that's great advice, vieralynn. Not that I've ever written something really graphic that was even fully consentual yet (baby steps), but these are good strategies for any kind of disturbing scene.