89415 réponses à ce sujet

[R2s Muse]

LolaLei wrote...

I just noticed something Cullen says in DA2: "I still have nightmare of Uldred's depravities".

I wonder if he still suffers with those nightmare 10+ years on, and if what he witnessed happen to Meredith affected him negatively in some way? I mean, it must have been pretty creepy to watch lol.

Yeah, he says that in Act 1, so not terribly long after all that happened. But, I headcanon that the nightmares may wane, but are always there. Those scars must be deep, like MMG's analogy.

[meanieweenie]

In case anyone wants to see it, this was the E3 ME3 reveal:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_LlJF1QQD8

Modifié par meanieweenie, 12 mai 2013 - 01:04 .

[LolaLei]

Something I always thought was kinda harsh is after Keran came back from almost being turned into an abomination, Cullen's all like "unless it is proven you are free of demons, I must strip you of your commission immediately", yet he had experienced the EXACT same thing 10 fold when he was in the Ferelden circle tower and Greagoir never stripped him of his commission and he ended up being the bloody Knight Captain, LOL! You would've thought he would be a little more understanding, although at that point he is still very much RAWR about his recent ordeal, so I guess that's probably why he wanted to be extra careful.

[LolaLei]

meanieweenie wrote...

In case anyone wants to see it, this was the E3 ME3 reveal:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_LlJF1QQD8

Is that all that was shown? Or did they give a little talk about it too?

[meanieweenie]

LolaLei wrote...

Something I always thought was kinda harsh is after Keran came back from almost being turned into an abomination, Cullen's all like "unless it is proven you are free of demons, I must strip you of your commission immediately", yet he had experienced the EXACT same thing 10 fold when he was in the Ferelden circle tower and Greagoir never stripped him of his commission and he ended up being the bloody Knight Captain, LOL! You would've thought he would be a little more understanding, although at that point he is still very much RAWR about his recent ordeal, so I guess that's probably why he wanted to be extra careful.

That did sort of stick in my craw a bit... although technically, he wasn't tranced out like Keran was. Cullen was lucid the whole time. Apparently, therein lies the difference, no?

Edit - I don't know if that's all there was but that's what they showed for a trailer, I believe.

Modifié par meanieweenie, 12 mai 2013 - 01:11 .

[SamaraDraven]

I think the extremity of Cullen's reaction to Keran was because Tarohne was TRYING to possess templars and had succeeded with Wilmod. What Cullen went through was to resist the demons' illusions rather than simply submit to what he wanted and living out the rest of his days deluded; like that one knight in Broken Circle who believed the desire demon was his wife and that they had kids. Cullen was trying to stay sane and in the here and now because IF he took that bait, he'd be lost to the demon's control. So it's different.

Plus he even says he hadn't thought possessing a templar was possible so he had a major and alarming concern to deal with now. How many knights could have demons within and not know? In Cullen's situation, had he fallen to the delusion, he'd fight on the side of that demon until the demon was killed and, if he survived, he'd be free. Wilmod had a demon within him. He wasn't a puppet whose strings could be cut, he was a meatsuit. And once forcibly possessed, there's no saving the host. In DAO Jowan points out that Connor accepted the demon willingly which made freeing him possible. It sounded like freeing a forcibly possessed person would be a lost cause. The two situations are different.

I do think Cullen could have been... kinder about it. Maybe? But I don't see it as being terribly unreasonable to want to be sure a demon wasn't living in Keran. I mean a secret agent like that among their ranks could wreak devastation in the Order. Just my $.02

[LolaLei]

meanieweenie wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

Something I always thought was kinda harsh is after Keran came back from almost being turned into an abomination, Cullen's all like "unless it is proven you are free of demons, I must strip you of your commission immediately", yet he had experienced the EXACT same thing 10 fold when he was in the Ferelden circle tower and Greagoir never stripped him of his commission and he ended up being the bloody Knight Captain, LOL! You would've thought he would be a little more understanding, although at that point he is still very much RAWR about his recent ordeal, so I guess that's probably why he wanted to be extra careful.

That did sort of stick in my craw a bit... although technically, he wasn't tranced out like Keran was. Cullen was lucid the whole time. Apparently, therein lies the difference, no?

True, I don't think he was knocking about in the Fade, and if he was then he must have slipped in and out since he was fully awake when he was in his little pink cage of woe. They also made him watch as they killed his Templar brothers and sisters, so I guess there's definitely a difference... plus, he had recently witnessed his recruit turn into an abomination, something he hadn't thought possible until that point, lol.

Modifié par LolaLei, 12 mai 2013 - 01:35 .

[R2s Muse]

Yeah, I also thought his potential responses to Keran were pretty harsh. Even on my pro-templar playthrough, I convinced Cullen to let Keran stay, and even then, he's still going to watch Keran for another, what, five or ten years before he'll get a full commission? I hadn't really thought about the specifics of each demon contact, but I suppose Tarohne did have a very specific agenda. I guess I always chalked it up to Cullen wearing his big boy pants and working for Meredith, that going soft on Keran isn't something a brand-spankin' new Knight-Captain would do. Particularly not one who has to answer to Meredith. During Act 1, he also seems to have almost a kind of hero worship for Meredith, noting how she never falls for a sweet face, she always sees the demon inside. He almost sounds wistful, like he wishes he had been that hardassed back in Kinloch Hold.

[R2s Muse]

LolaLei wrote...

meanieweenie wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

Something I always thought was kinda harsh is after Keran came back from almost being turned into an abomination, Cullen's all like "unless it is proven you are free of demons, I must strip you of your commission immediately", yet he had experienced the EXACT same thing 10 fold when he was in the Ferelden circle tower and Greagoir never stripped him of his commission and he ended up being the bloody Knight Captain, LOL! You would've thought he would be a little more understanding, although at that point he is still very much RAWR about his recent ordeal, so I guess that's probably why he wanted to be extra careful.

That did sort of stick in my craw a bit... although technically, he wasn't tranced out like Keran was. Cullen was lucid the whole time. Apparently, therein lies the difference, no?

True, I don't think he was knocking about in the Fade, and if he was then he must have slipped in and out since he was fully awake when he was in his little pink cage of woe. They also made him watch as the killed his Templar brothers and sisters, so I guess there's definitely a difference... plus, he had recently witnessed his recruit turn into an abomination, something he hadn't thought possible until that point, lol.

Ah, that's also a really good point. In principle, the threat with Keran would seem much greater than when Cullen went through it. With Cullen, I guess they psychologically tortured him, but didn't possess him. So the real threat was Cullen dying or going mad.

[LolaLei]

R2s Muse wrote...

During Act 1, he also seems to have almost a kind of hero worship for Meredith, noting how she never falls for a sweet face, she always sees the demon inside. He almost sounds wistful, like he wishes he had been that hardassed back in Kinloch Hold.

I always took it as him openly scolding himself for "falling for a sweet face" etc, just another way for him to punish himself. Of course, Hawke isn't to know that Cullen wanted to shag his/her cousin/the Warden that saved Ferelden, but we as they player do. He definitely looked up to Meredith though, I guess she did kinda "save" him... in a way. 

I feel like maybe he was purposely trying to ignore how loopy Meredith was becoming because he desperately didn't want to believe that someone he was loyal to, who he considered to be strong and sane of mind was slowly becoming more corrupt, although he clearly found himself questioning her methods by Act 3 because he says as much. I guess that must have been hard for him to come to terms with.

[LolaLei]

R2s Muse wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

meanieweenie wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

Something I always thought was kinda harsh is after Keran came back from almost being turned into an abomination, Cullen's all like "unless it is proven you are free of demons, I must strip you of your commission immediately", yet he had experienced the EXACT same thing 10 fold when he was in the Ferelden circle tower and Greagoir never stripped him of his commission and he ended up being the bloody Knight Captain, LOL! You would've thought he would be a little more understanding, although at that point he is still very much RAWR about his recent ordeal, so I guess that's probably why he wanted to be extra careful.

That did sort of stick in my craw a bit... although technically, he wasn't tranced out like Keran was. Cullen was lucid the whole time. Apparently, therein lies the difference, no?

True, I don't think he was knocking about in the Fade, and if he was then he must have slipped in and out since he was fully awake when he was in his little pink cage of woe. They also made him watch as the killed his Templar brothers and sisters, so I guess there's definitely a difference... plus, he had recently witnessed his recruit turn into an abomination, something he hadn't thought possible until that point, lol.

Ah, that's also a really good point. In principle, the threat with Keran would seem much greater than when Cullen went through it. With Cullen, I guess they psychologically tortured him, but didn't possess him. So the real threat was Cullen dying or going mad.

It's something that literally occured to me as I wrote it, lol. 

[meanieweenie]

I always thought that Meredith wasn't really going loopy until Act 2 when she got her hands on the red lyrium idol.... am I wrong? In Act 1 I felt she was just a strong, hardassed woman.

[LolaLei]

meanieweenie wrote...

I always thought that Meredith wasn't really going loopy until Act 2 when she got her hands on the red lyrium idol.... am I wrong? In Act 1 I felt she was just a strong, hardassed woman.

In Act 1 she was definitely very hardassed and stubborn. I personally feel that she was already corrupted by the power she held within the city, but the red lyrium idol just made her worse because she became more paranoid and craved even more power.

[R2s Muse]

Agree, meanie, I don't think she was crazy until later. I was reading Lola's comment as how when Meredith *did* start going loopy, that was yet another let down for our intrepid captain. I agree that it must have been a hard situation, wanting to believe in her but finally having to give up on her in the end.

You know... I hadn't really thought about it as much before, but I like the notion of Meredith "saving" him. That her strong belief in him could have been part of his rehabilitation and helped him start to believe in himself again, too. Then, when she goes cuckoo, it's an even bigger fall for him.

Ah, poor dear.

[SamaraDraven]

meanieweenie wrote...

I always thought that Meredith wasn't really going loopy until Act 2 when she got her hands on the red lyrium idol.... am I wrong? In Act 1 I felt she was just a strong, hardassed woman.

I think in the beginning she was just hard assed. Even she had limits. She rejected Alrik's Tranquil Solution even though by Act 3 she's like "KILL 'EM ALL!!!" Her fear drove her to extremes in the beginning but that damned idol amplified them.

[LolaLei]

R2s Muse wrote...

Agree, meanie, I don't think she was crazy until later. I was reading Lola's comment as how when Meredith *did* start going loopy, that was yet another let down for our intrepid captain. I agree that it must have been a hard situation, wanting to believe in her but finally having to give up on her in the end.

You know... I hadn't really thought about it as much before, but I like the notion of Meredith "saving" him. That her strong belief in him could have been part of his rehabilitation and helped him start to believe in himself again, too. Then, when she goes cuckoo, it's an even bigger fall for him.

Ah, poor dear.

Well, she certainly gave him a second chance at being a Templar. When Greagoir offered him to her, she could've declined him. What's sad is that it's pretty obvious that the only reason she took Cullen on is because she knew that, at that point, he was hardlined and suffering with his hatred of mages, I've always believed that she thought she could shape his thoughts and opinions to mould him into "the model Templar" like she believed herself to be with her extreme view of mages.

He was just a puppet to her. Fortunately she underestimated him.

Modifié par LolaLei, 12 mai 2013 - 01:52 .

[R2s Muse]

LolaLei wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

Agree, meanie, I don't think she was crazy until later. I was reading Lola's comment as how when Meredith *did* start going loopy, that was yet another let down for our intrepid captain. I agree that it must have been a hard situation, wanting to believe in her but finally having to give up on her in the end.

You know... I hadn't really thought about it as much before, but I like the notion of Meredith "saving" him. That her strong belief in him could have been part of his rehabilitation and helped him start to believe in himself again, too. Then, when she goes cuckoo, it's an even bigger fall for him.

Ah, poor dear.

Well, she certainly gave him a second chance at being a Templar. When Greagoir offered him to her, she could've declined him. What's sad is that it's pretty obvious that the only reason she took Cullen on is because she knew that,at that point, he was hardlined and suffering with his hatred of mages, I've always believed that she thought she could shape his thoughts and opinions to mould him into "the model Templar" like she believed herself to be with her extreme view of mages.

He was just a puppet to her. Fortunately she underestimated him.

Agree. I don't think she was doing anything remotely humanitarian by taking him in! LOL She clearly was looking for a mage-hater to do some role-modeling for the other templars. ... like she didn't already have Alrik around. You know... there's a question. Why the heck would she promote someone like Cullen over someone like Alrik or Karras? Maybe they were too extreme? Not as liked by the other templars?

edit: He came with a better letter of recommendation...? 

Modifié par R2s Muse, 12 mai 2013 - 01:57 .

[SamaraDraven]

I'm glad she underestimated him! =D I saw her recruitment of him as helping someone she viewed as a kindred spirit, someone who saw "the true threat of mages" firsthand. Most templars don't see abominations in their lifetimes. Meredith saw her sister become one and murder her entire family save Meredith. She has a huuuge bone deep terror of mages and believes that only she and others like her, who have seen the ugly, can truly understand. What she failed to account for was Cullen's character. He had his faith to save him and, while Meredith is certainly an Andrastian, she holds up her religion as an excuse to wield her power. Which she does out of fear. Cullen clung to his religion to stand strong and make it through. I do think his previous relationship with mages helped because he knew them as regular people for a long time before Uldred happened.

Modifié par SamaraDraven, 12 mai 2013 - 02:04 .

[LolaLei]

R2s Muse wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

Agree, meanie, I don't think she was crazy until later. I was reading Lola's comment as how when Meredith *did* start going loopy, that was yet another let down for our intrepid captain. I agree that it must have been a hard situation, wanting to believe in her but finally having to give up on her in the end.

You know... I hadn't really thought about it as much before, but I like the notion of Meredith "saving" him. That her strong belief in him could have been part of his rehabilitation and helped him start to believe in himself again, too. Then, when she goes cuckoo, it's an even bigger fall for him.

Ah, poor dear.

Well, she certainly gave him a second chance at being a Templar. When Greagoir offered him to her, she could've declined him. What's sad is that it's pretty obvious that the only reason she took Cullen on is because she knew that,at that point, he was hardlined and suffering with his hatred of mages, I've always believed that she thought she could shape his thoughts and opinions to mould him into "the model Templar" like she believed herself to be with her extreme view of mages.

He was just a puppet to her. Fortunately she underestimated him.

Agree. I don't think she was doing anything remotely humanitarian by taking him in! LOL She clearly was looking for a mage-hater to do some role-modeling for the other templars. ... like she didn't already have Alrik around. You know... there's a question. Why the heck would she promote someone like Cullen over someone like Alrik or Karras? Maybe they were too extreme? Not as liked by the other templars?

Too likely to usurp her, I suspect.

I think she realised quickly that Cullen was the loyal sort, and I think she thought he'd be a good little Templar and follow orders. It wouldn't surprise me if she was aware that Kerras and Alrik were the dodgy rapey sort and that's why she didn't give them a position of power, not because she cared for the mages safety, but rather that she didn't want "her" Order getting a bad name, especially if either of them were to try and take her crown.

She saw potential in Cullen because she saw a lot of herself in him.

[meanieweenie]

True - Cullen would have been a man looking for A) sanctuary from former hells someone to understand and sympathize with his experiences with mages. Both of these points would have be reason enough for Meredith to look his way and snatch the opportunity to mold one to her ideals.

[LolaLei]

SamaraDraven wrote...

I'm glad she underestimated him! =D I saw her recruitment of him as helping she saw as a kindred spirit, someone who saw "the true threat of mages" firsthand. Most templars don't see abominations in their lifetimes. Meredith saw her sister become one murder her entire family save Meredith. She has a huuuge bone deep terror of mages and believes that only she and others like her, who seen the ugly, can truly understand. What she failed to account for was Cullen's character. He had his faith to save him and, while Meredith is certainly an Andrastian, she holds up her religion as an excuse to wield her power. Which she does out of fear. Cullen clung to his religion to stand strong and make it through. I do think his previous relationship with mages helped because he knew them as regular people for a long time before Uldred happened.

That's true, I think she saw the fact that he too had experienced it first hand as a bonus... who better to promote than someone else who has the same zeal as she did.

Modifié par LolaLei, 12 mai 2013 - 02:03 .

[R2s Muse]

LOL Good points. So it seems in some sense it *is* a better letter of recommendation... his resume had direct abomination experience whereas in principle the others probably didn't. I like that.

The kindred spirit thing is also good point. The codex does make it sound like she expected him to really be her right hand guy, meeting of the minds and all that. It makes me wonder what his interactions with Meredith were like that first year or so. Did she try to mentor him? Were they... friends?

Modifié par R2s Muse, 12 mai 2013 - 02:10 .

[SamaraDraven]

LolaLei wrote...

SamaraDraven wrote...

I'm glad she underestimated him! =D I saw her recruitment of him as helping she saw as a kindred spirit, someone who saw "the true threat of mages" firsthand. Most templars don't see abominations in their lifetimes. Meredith saw her sister become one murder her entire family save Meredith. She has a huuuge bone deep terror of mages and believes that only she and others like her, who seen the ugly, can truly understand. What she failed to account for was Cullen's character. He had his faith to save him and, while Meredith is certainly an Andrastian, she holds up her religion as an excuse to wield her power. Which she does out of fear. Cullen clung to his religion to stand strong and make it through. I do think his previous relationship with mages helped because he knew them as regular people for a long time before Uldred happened.

That's true, I think she saw the fact that he too had experienced it first hand as a bonus... who better to promote than someone else who has the same zeal as she did.

Exactly! But she didn't consider that as he healed, that Cullen might not continue to hold thesame fervor. She never knew mages as anything but surprise boogeymen. Cullen had years of... quasi-friendship with them.
What I love most about his growth is that he's eveloved to believe that not only is his duty to protect people from mages but also to protect mages from peopleand to be safety net for them. I doubt most mages want to turn into a monster andf slaughter innocent people. He's kind of come a middle ground which is a place where the writers can do some amazing things with his story!

[LolaLei]

SamaraDraven wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

SamaraDraven wrote...

I'm glad she underestimated him! =D I saw her recruitment of him as helping she saw as a kindred spirit, someone who saw "the true threat of mages" firsthand. Most templars don't see abominations in their lifetimes. Meredith saw her sister become one murder her entire family save Meredith. She has a huuuge bone deep terror of mages and believes that only she and others like her, who seen the ugly, can truly understand. What she failed to account for was Cullen's character. He had his faith to save him and, while Meredith is certainly an Andrastian, she holds up her religion as an excuse to wield her power. Which she does out of fear. Cullen clung to his religion to stand strong and make it through. I do think his previous relationship with mages helped because he knew them as regular people for a long time before Uldred happened.

That's true, I think she saw the fact that he too had experienced it first hand as a bonus... who better to promote than someone else who has the same zeal as she did.

Exactly! But she didn't consider that as he healed, that Cullen might not continue to hold thesame fervor. She never knew mages as anything but surprise boogeymen. Cullen had years of... quasi-friendship with them.
What I love most about his growth is that he's eveloved to believe that not only is his duty to protect people from mages but also to protect mages from peopleand to be safety net for them. I doubt most mages want to turn into a monster andf slaughter innocent people. He's kind of come a middle ground which is a place where the writers can do some amazing things with his story!

Cullen seems to be very much a thinking man... and not just because he stood outside the Gallows for 10 years with a thoughtful expression on his face, LOL!

Even in DA:O (particularly with a male mage character) he'll openly express his thought process, even when he doesn't mean to. In DA2 if you interact with him often you can witness his hardline stance soften and his issues with the Order come to the surface. He even expresses at one point that after his Torture in Ferelden he promised himself that he would never again question the Templar Order, but that he's found himself, once again, questioning its practices, which means he was also questioning it in DA:O.

[SamaraDraven]

R2s Muse wrote...

LOL Good points. So it seems in some sense it *is* a better letter of recommendation... his resume had direct abomination experience whereas in principle the others probably didn't. I like that.

The kindred spirit thing is also good point. The codex does make it sound like she expected him to really be her right hand guy, meeting of the minds and all that. It makes me wonder what his interactions with Meredith were like that first year or so. Did she try to mentor him? Were they... friends?

Oh Maker! Meredith friends with anyone just sounds weird. lol! That said, some of the things she says to Orsino make me wonder if she hadn't a little bit more reasonable before we meet her and has been slowly going over the edge with every new mage related catastrophe, which is her hot button.

She might have tried to mentor Cullen in the beginning. It would explain a lot of his high regard for her. Especially if she using Cullen's hot button - that being his faith - to encourage him down a more "righteous" path, as she saw it.