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[LolaLei]

And here's the kicker, if he's found himself questioning the Order a second time, even after everything he previously experienced at the hands of blood mages, then there's absolutely no way in hell that he sided with the rebel Templars, there's absolutely no way he'd agree to it.

So if he is with the rebel Templars in DA3 then he's either working as a sleeper agent for the Divine, or the writers have decided to do a 180 with his personality/story.

[LolaLei]

R2s Muse wrote...

LOL Good points. So it seems in some sense it *is* a better letter of recommendation... his resume had direct abomination experience whereas in principle the others probably didn't. I like that.

The kindred spirit thing is also good point. The codex does make it sound like she expected him to really be her right hand guy, meeting of the minds and all that. It makes me wonder what his interactions with Meredith were like that first year or so. Did she try to mentor him? Were they... friends?

I can see why some people thought that maybe he and Meredith may have had "a thing" going for a while. It's funny, DG 'n' co could've let people just speculate about it without giving them a yes or no, like they usually like to do for lols. But they said almost immediately that there was no romance between Cullen and Meredith. I wonder if there's a reason for that?

[R2s Muse]

LolaLei wrote...

And here's the kicker, if he's found himself questioning the Order a second time, even after everything he previously experienced at the hands of blood mages, then there's absolutely no way in hell that he sided with the rebel Templars, there's absolutely no way he'd agree to it.

So if he is with the rebel Templars in DA3 then he's either working as a sleeper agent for the Divine, or the writers have decided to do a 180 with his personality/story.

As far as questioning the Order in DA:O, he actually says as much during DA2, right? That he "used" to think that the templars were being too hard on the mages.

In DA2, tho, I get the sense that there are two different things at  play: Meredith's way and the "true" Order's way. I get the sense that when he says the line about never questioning the Order again, what he's really questioning at the time is Meredith, not the Order. When he overthrows Meredith in the end, it's because "this is not what the Order stands for." I feel like he has a very fundamental, probably idealized notion of what the Order stands for that he's not questioning.

Then,  you get Lambert et al. coming along and suddenly redefining what the Order stands for. That's where I see his struggle and why I also have never seen him going along with the Seekers/templars/Inquisition/whatever becoming mage hunters. I would expect him to cleave yet again to his idealized notion of what the Order stands for, even if the Order itself no longer does.

Modifié par R2s Muse, 12 mai 2013 - 02:33 .

[SamaraDraven]

LolaLei wrote...

SamaraDraven wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

SamaraDraven wrote...

I'm glad she underestimated him! =D I saw her recruitment of him as helping she saw as a kindred spirit, someone who saw "the true threat of mages" firsthand. Most templars don't see abominations in their lifetimes. Meredith saw her sister become one murder her entire family save Meredith. She has a huuuge bone deep terror of mages and believes that only she and others like her, who seen the ugly, can truly understand. What she failed to account for was Cullen's character. He had his faith to save him and, while Meredith is certainly an Andrastian, she holds up her religion as an excuse to wield her power. Which she does out of fear. Cullen clung to his religion to stand strong and make it through. I do think his previous relationship with mages helped because he knew them as regular people for a long time before Uldred happened.

That's true, I think she saw the fact that he too had experienced it first hand as a bonus... who better to promote than someone else who has the same zeal as she did.

Exactly! But she didn't consider that as he healed, that Cullen might not continue to hold thesame fervor. She never knew mages as anything but surprise boogeymen. Cullen had years of... quasi-friendship with them.
What I love most about his growth is that he's eveloved to believe that not only is his duty to protect people from mages but also to protect mages from peopleand to be safety net for them. I doubt most mages want to turn into a monster andf slaughter innocent people. He's kind of come a middle ground which is a place where the writers can do some amazing things with his story!

Cullen seems to be very much a thinking man... and not just because he stood outside the Gallows for 10 years with a thoughtful expression on his face, LOL!

Even in DA:O (particularly with a male mage character) he'll openly express his thought process, even when he doesn't mean to. In DA2 if you interact with him often you can witness his hardline stance soften and his issues with the Order come to the surface. He even expresses at one point that after his Torture in Ferelden he promised himself that he would never again question the Templar Order, but that he's found himself, once again, questioning its practices, which means he was also questioning it in DA:O.

My last post was sooo full of errors, I'm so sorry I usually proof it before posting but I'm eating and surfing simultaneously so things escape me.

Anyhoo... yeah, he's a thinker alright! When you stand around all day, there's nothing to do but think. And one can only form opinions and beliefs from their experiences so ullen kind of had to come back to somewhere close to how he began. He even says, in DAO, that he wondered if the mages hed to be imprisoned and treated as they were. Which is part of why he goes to the opposite extreme aftet Broken Circle. He would have let the mages have their freedom but look what Uldred did with the allowances made for him. Cullen felt like a fool for his thoughts after that. So he startted down a path of fear and control like Meredith had but he also had a different life before everything in DAO and eventually he began to remember this fondly instead of with fear and loathing. He had years of this to do in DA2 and seeing how mages were being treated in Kirkwall probably helped steer him further down this path. He's a decent guy and he knows mages are people, despite what he says. That, I think, was Meredith's rhetoric and he was trying to convince himself of it's truth because she'd helped him and understood what he'd been through. But meredith kept doing worse things that even he knew were unnecessary and was too decent a guy to accept doing gladly.

[LolaLei]

R2s Muse wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

And here's the kicker, if he's found himself questioning the Order a second time, even after everything he previously experienced at the hands of blood mages, then there's absolutely no way in hell that he sided with the rebel Templars, there's absolutely no way he'd agree to it.

So if he is with the rebel Templars in DA3 then he's either working as a sleeper agent for the Divine, or the writers have decided to do a 180 with his personality/story.

As far as questioning the Order in DA:O, he actually says as much during DA2, right? That he "used" to think that the templars were being too hard on the mages.

In DA2, tho, I get the sense that there are two different things at  play: Meredith's way and the "true" Order's way. I get the sense that when he says the line about never questioning the Order again, what he's really questioning at the time is Meredith, not the Order. When he overthrows Meredith in the end, it's because "this is not what the Order stands for." I feel like he has a very fundamental, probably idealized notion of what the Order stands for that he's not questioning.

Then,  you get Lambert et al. coming along and suddenly redefining what the Order stands for. That's where I see his struggle and why I also have never seen him going along with the Seekers/templars/Inquisition/whatever becoming mage hunters. I would expect him to cleave yet again to his idealized notion of what the Order stands for, even if the Order itself no longer does.

Yeah, that's what I mean. Lambert's view of the Order is very similar to what Meredith's was by the end of DA2, there's no way he'd stand for it.

Cullen will always be a Templar at heart, but I think he'll always carry his beliefs and morals at his core, which is what stands him apart from the others in the Order. I'm 100% certain he'll be Divine loyal, and if I'm wrong I'll eat my hat.

[SamaraDraven]

R2s Muse wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

And here's the kicker, if he's found himself questioning the Order a second time, even after everything he previously experienced at the hands of blood mages, then there's absolutely no way in hell that he sided with the rebel Templars, there's absolutely no way he'd agree to it.

So if he is with the rebel Templars in DA3 then he's either working as a sleeper agent for the Divine, or the writers have decided to do a 180 with his personality/story.

As far as questioning the Order in DA:O, he actually says as much during DA2, right? That he "used" to think that the templars were being too hard on the mages.

In DA2, tho, I get the sense that there are two different things at  play: Meredith's way and the "true" Order's way. I get the sense that when he says the line about never questioning the Order again, what he's really questioning at the time is Meredith, not the Order. When he overthrows Meredith in the end, it's because "this is not what the Order stands for." I feel like he has a very fundamental, probably idealized notion of what the Order stands for that he's not questioning.

Then,  you get Lambert et al. coming along and suddenly redefining what the Order stands for. That's where I see his struggle and why I also have never seen him going along with the Seekers/templars/Inquisition/whatever becoming mage hunters. I would expect him to cleave yet again to his idealized notion of what the Order stands for, even if the Order itself no longer does.

This is essentially why I see Cullen as trying be the "good cop". He believes mages need some kind of oversight. Even in DAO pre-Uldred, he may have believed it but that it was possible to accomplish without imprisoning mages. I really feel Cullen believes the Order is supposed to A) protect everyone from maleficarum and Protect mages from themselves, as in be vigilant for signs of demon possession so that they (mages) can sleep at night. He sees himself as a safe anchor for mages so they don't have to live in dread of becoming a monster. The trouble is, very few knights share his ideals. At least this is where I see his evolution heading anyway. If anyone in Thedas could redesign a fairer system for mages, it's Cullen.

[CuriousArtemis]

R2s Muse wrote...

Agree. I don't think she was doing anything remotely humanitarian by taking him in! LOL She clearly was looking for a mage-hater to do some role-modeling for the other templars. ... like she didn't already have Alrik around. You know... there's a question. Why the heck would she promote someone like Cullen over someone like Alrik or Karras? Maybe they were too extreme? Not as liked by the other templars?

edit: He came with a better letter of recommendation...? 

Also his Chantry Entrance Exam (CEE) test scores were off the charts. And he'd recently published a treatise on mage extermination in Kirkwall's premier peer-reviewed journal, so he was a shoo-in.

Academic jokes, they always fall flat...

[SamaraDraven]

Ba-dum-tissss! ;D

[Jean]

The direction I'd find most interesting is if he just woke up one day and said "You know what, screw all you guys. I'm going home."

I find that unlikely, but you never know. Maybe my creepy farmer!Cullen dream has some merit!

[LolaLei]

Batteries wrote...

The direction I'd find most interesting is if he just woke up one day and said "You know what, screw all you guys. I'm going home."

I find that unlikely, but you never know. Maybe my creepy farmer!Cullen dream has some merit!

"I'm sorry Inquisitior, I can't help you avenge the Divine's death... it's marrow season and I've got a big one I want to put into this years farmers market!" :lol:

[R2s Muse]

Batteries wrote...

The direction I'd find most interesting is if he just woke up one day and said "You know what, screw all you guys. I'm going home."

I find that unlikely, but you never know. Maybe my creepy farmer!Cullen dream has some merit!

I could actually see an angle for that! He gets court martialed for his insubordination with Meredith. Honorable/dishonorable discharge. Goes back to the family farm, throws himself into his work. Consoles himself, silently, that the whole mage-templar war is no place for an honest templar anyway. "Lucky it isn't my  problem!" Who shows up at his door...? Inquisitor calling. Looking for a few good men.

Oh sh!t. /plotbunny

[SamaraDraven]

LolaLei wrote...

Batteries wrote...

The direction I'd find most interesting is if he just woke up one day and said "You know what, screw all you guys. I'm going home."

I find that unlikely, but you never know. Maybe my creepy farmer!Cullen dream has some merit!

"I'm sorry Inquisitior, I can't help you avenge the Divine's death... it's marrow season and I've got a big one I want to put into this years farmers market!" :lol:

HAHA! You guys crack me up! ^_^

Edit: Oh poor R2! You're just so good at doing that to yourself, aren't you? 

Modifié par SamaraDraven, 12 mai 2013 - 03:03 .

[R2s Muse]

LOL It's been a while since we've had such fun Cullen discussion! Thanks everyone. And, of course, now I'm turning into a pumpkin. Ah well, adieu.

Samara, glad you're hooked back in again!

[LolaLei]

Here's a perfect example of what we are talking about:



"I hope Meredith knows what she is doing, I will do what she commands of me... but something about this isn't right."

"Maybe with you on our side we can resolve this quickly, and with little bloodshed. I am not looking forward to this."

"The Rite of Annulment was envoked on the circle in Ferelden when I was younger. There it was justified, demons overran the whole tower, here it's much harder to tell who's in the wrong."

... Those aren't the words of a man who is still a hardline Templar, he even says that he can't tell who's in the wrong. He doesn't want to fight and he takes no joy in the possibility of having to kill a sh!t load of mages. What you see if you play as pro-Templar is him voicing to Hawke something that was still clearly going through his head in the pro-mage playthrough.

Modifié par LolaLei, 12 mai 2013 - 03:10 .

[LolaLei]

I'm amazed we've found something Cullen related to talk about! I totally thought we'd exhausted every possible angle.

[SamaraDraven]

R2s Muse wrote...

LOL It's been a while since we've had such fun Cullen discussion! Thanks everyone. And, of course, now I'm turning into a pumpkin. Ah well, adieu.

Samara, glad you're hooked back in again!

It's been a blast! I miss you gals. I'm fast turning into a pumpkin myself! Will be calling it a night really soon. Have a gvood one R2! Sse you later.

[SamaraDraven]

LolaLei wrote...

Here's a perfect example of what we are talking about:



"I hope Meredith knows what she is doing, I will do what she commands of me... but something about this isn't right."

"Maybe with you on our side we can resolve this quickly, and with little bloodshed. I am not looking forward to this."

"The Rite of Annulment was envoked on the circle in Ferelden when I was younger. There it was justified, demons overran the whole tower, here it's much harder to tell who's in the wrong."

... Those aren't the words of a man who is still a hardline Templar, he even says that he can't tell who's in the wrong. He doesn't want to fight and he takes no joy in the possibility of having to kill a sh!t load of mages. What you see if you play as pro-Templar is him voicing to Hawke something that was still clearly going through his head in the pro-mage playthrough.

Indeed, Lola, I agree that he is still so uncertain about the party line. I don't think he ever was a hardline templar. He hoped to be one, I think. He wanted to be at peace with his duty but deep down, he knows something is wrong with the whole thing.

[Jean]

 Who knows, maybe by getting out of Kirkwall he will mellow him out ten-fold, considering the whole place is basically situated right above a Hellmouth 

[SamaraDraven]

On that note, I think I'll go now. I'm having difficulty keeping my eyelids up. hehehe...

[SamaraDraven]

Good point, Batteries. It'd be foolish to forget that.=)

[LolaLei]

Batteries wrote...

 Who knows, maybe by getting out of Kirkwall he will mellow him out ten-fold, considering the whole place is basically situated right above a Hellmouth 

Well, he's been cooped up in two Circles for a good chunk of his life and aside from maybe the odd day off any trips out of the Gallows/Ferelden circle was probably duty related to hunt apostate or whatever. Getting out and about and adventuring with the new protagonist will do him the world of good, even though they'll still technically be "on a mission". 

[LolaLei]

All this talk has inspired me to make another Cullen fan video, I'll link it here when it's done. It won't be on my main channel though, I'll make a separate one for fan videos like these.

[LolaLei]

On a different note, I found an absolutely amazing fan made trailer that makes me want to play DA2 all over again!

[LolaLei]

Also, this was the launch trailer with in-game footage... presumably this was released a few days before the game shipped, but if they give us a trailer that's something like this then that would be awesome!