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[LolaLei]

motomotogirl wrote...

I always get the "Grace is dead. Thrask is dead. And it's only going to get worse from here..." Or something speech, instead of the rape thing.

He usually says it after he and the others are brought to the Gallows.

[LolaLei]

See! I knew Alain said that he was told not to tell anyone:

[deuce985]

brushyourteeth wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

Kallimachus wrote...

Brushyourteeth, I first meant to tell you this in private but I don't know how to do it so I'll say this here, and hope you'll forgive me (especially as you seem to not mind analyzing me incorrectly in public).

You come across as extremely belligerent. From your pic to your tone, everything about you says you're on a war path. And frankly, that makes me defensive, and when I do I will sometimes say things I do not mean. I shouldn't have written the "wishful thinking" comment, and I apologize if it offended you, but I still must say I do not know where you got those assertions (and I played the game many times, I'm one of those weirdos who actually loved DA2, and that should be sufficient evidence that I know what it is to be attacked regularly on the forum, and why I seldom frequent it. I also lobbied long long ago for more gay LIs, you can guess how that went).
I certainly did not rebuff every comment with "No. That's not in the game" I only said it once, (and then repeated it when you accused me of being closed minded - which I certainly hope I am not). And I think your attacks on me were less than fair.
That said, I'm still interested in hearing why you think my assessment of Cullen is wrong.

no nooo, brushyourteeth isn't belligerent -- she's kind and her hair is soft and healthy.

Now as long as we're "in public," let's play nice!

Her coat is ever so glossy! 

Weeeell, she has always had a thing for shiny pelts...

It's L'Oreal... and I'm worth it. 

I see Shiala strikes again. Everyone seems to think you're so mean with that avatar LOL!

[Twice a Lady]

All right, I'll chime in on my thoughts to the whole rape thing. I've been a long time lurker and an even longer Cullen fan and today is the day I've finally started replying to threads. If I've learned anything about this site, it's that this thread is the one that stands out as the 'incredibly respectable one' and I think this is a safe place to voice my opinion. And here it is: I am doubtful that Cullen had any idea about the rapes. First off, sexual abuse can go on for years with the victims remaining silent out of fear and a number of other reasons. Second, Cullen is Meredith's second. There is a whole chain of command under him that could easily keep quiet about the seedy goings-ons at the gallows, so the information quite plausibly would never get to him. If a Mage was to come forward, who is to say the information didn't stop at a lieutenant or something? I have a hard time believing a Mage would head straight to the Knight Captain to reveal they were abused, especially when his title seems to carry a bit of 'hush, hush, don't make him angry' fear (whether it is deserved or not) Carver even points out to Hawke when they meet Cullen 'Don't! That's the blasted Knight -Captain!'. Because of Meredith's hard stance on mages, Cullen's position installs fear in even the general public. It also doesn't give off a 'hey guys! Bring all your concerns to me! I'm very friendly and approachable' vibe either, so I suspect that regardless of how easy it is for Hawke to talk to him, it isn't that way for everyone else. Heck, even the ladies of the Blooming Rose watch their tongues around him. It bothers me that so many people seem to hold Cullen responsible for the rapes, or worse decide that he must have been in on it or at the very least ignored it if he knew. That just doesn't add up to me, especially when Cullen makes his, 'a Templar protects mages' speech during the third act if you play pro-Templar.

As for the increasing Tranquil, I think he knew that. I suspect there was an investigation to that, much like his investigation of the recruits when we first meet him. The player just doesn't hear about it, I reason b/c Meredith has closed ranks, which Cullen tells the player if asked about any more work you can do for the order.

And there it is, my opinion. *scurries back into her dark little corner*

[LolaLei]

Here's an interesting opinion on Cullen's behaviour/personality in DA2. I'm not gonna quote the thing directly, so I'll just give you the basic jist:

"I don't see Cullen's behaviour or wishy-washy attitude as being inconsistent with his character (or bad writing) at all. It simply highlighted exactly the kind of person he is, and that is someone who is good at surving at the cost of others. He knew how good of a fighter Hawke was and switched sides at the right moment. People like him make self-survival seem like they are doing a morally superior thing and not all because they want to live another day."

Discuss!

[LolaLei]

Twice a Lady wrote...

All right, I'll chime in on my thoughts to the whole rape thing. I've been a long time lurker and an even longer Cullen fan and today is the day I've finally started replying to threads. If I've learned anything about this site, it's that this thread is the one that stands out as the 'incredibly respectable one' and I think this is a safe place to voice my opinion. And here it is: I am doubtful that Cullen had any idea about the rapes. First off, sexual abuse can go on for years with the victims remaining silent out of fear and a number of other reasons. Second, Cullen is Meredith's second. There is a whole chain of command under him that could easily keep quiet about the seedy goings-ons at the gallows, so the information quite plausibly would never get to him. If a Mage was to come forward, who is to say the information didn't stop at a lieutenant or something? I have a hard time believing a Mage would head straight to the Knight Captain to reveal they were abused, especially when his title seems to carry a bit of 'hush, hush, don't make him angry' fear (whether it is deserved or not) Carver even points out to Hawke when they meet Cullen 'Don't! That's the blasted Knight -Captain!'. Because of Meredith's hard stance on mages, Cullen's position installs fear in even the general public. It also doesn't give off a 'hey guys! Bring all your concerns to me! I'm very friendly and approachable' vibe either, so I suspect that regardless of how easy it is for Hawke to talk to him, it isn't that way for everyone else. Heck, even the ladies of the Blooming Rose watch their tongues around him. It bothers me that so many people seem to hold Cullen responsible for the rapes, or worse decide that he must have been in on it or at the very least ignored it if he knew. That just doesn't add up to me, especially when Cullen makes his, 'a Templar protects mages' speech during the third act if you play pro-Templar.

As for the increasing Tranquil, I think he knew that. I suspect there was an investigation to that, much like his investigation of the recruits when we first meet him. The player just doesn't hear about it, I reason b/c Meredith has closed ranks, which Cullen tells the player if asked about any more work you can do for the order.

And there it is, my opinion. *scurries back into her dark little corner*

See, David Gaider himself said that Cullen is one of the good guys. A good guy doesn't stand by and allow people to get raped or needlessly tortured. Therefore it's unlikely that Cullen knew anything about the injustice going on within the Gallows.

Urgh, I just wish DG would go into that thread and just tell us one way or another whether Cullen was aware of it and what his motivations really were. Alas, I don't think he ever will.

[CuriousArtemis]

Twice a Lady wrote...

And there it is, my opinion. *scurries back into her dark little corner*

Don't scurry way! Staaaaaaaaaay ... 

[CuriousArtemis]

LolaLei wrote...

Here's an interesting opinion on Cullen's behaviour/personality in DA2. I'm not gonna quote the thing directly, so I'll just give you the basic jist:

"I don't see Cullen's behaviour or wishy-washy attitude as being inconsistent with his character (or bad writing) at all. It simply highlighted exactly the kind of person he is, and that is someone who is good at surving at the cost of others. He knew how good of a fighter Hawke was and switched sides at the right moment. People like him make self-survival seem like they are doing a morally superior thing and not all because they want to live another day."

Discuss!

Yes, well, I believe I was one of the few who said that Cullen is incredibly wishy-washy by nature!! And a lot of people in this thread were not happy about how I put that  But I stand by that statement! I think he is indecisive and obsessed with doing "what's right" and "his duty" but he can never decide what exactly "what's right" truly is, and hence he's constantly switching from one side to the other, terrified of having made the wrong decision and inadvertently failing to serve the greater good.

[Newschmoo]

I don't see Cullen as a 'self survivor' more a person who wants to do the right thing according to his faith and his beliefs. Doesn't always mean that those beliefs are right though.

I believe he would be the kind of person who would put his life on the line for the greater good  (or the Chantry's version of it), if it was say 'Andraste's will' or something like that!

In DA2 he spoke up for those three mages at the end of DA2 (if doing pro-Templar - had to watch Youtube video as only done pro-mage route) when Hawke asked for his opinion. That scene to me was not a man who was taking steps to protect himself. It was a man expressing himself based on his fundamental beliefs and past experience.

Modifié par Newschmoo, 15 mai 2013 - 10:16 .

[LolaLei]

motomotogirl wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

Here's an interesting opinion on Cullen's behaviour/personality in DA2. I'm not gonna quote the thing directly, so I'll just give you the basic jist:

"I don't see Cullen's behaviour or wishy-washy attitude as being inconsistent with his character (or bad writing) at all. It simply highlighted exactly the kind of person he is, and that is someone who is good at surving at the cost of others. He knew how good of a fighter Hawke was and switched sides at the right moment. People like him make self-survival seem like they are doing a morally superior thing and not all because they want to live another day."

Discuss!

Yes, well, I believe I was one of the few who said that Cullen is incredibly wishy-washy by nature!! And a lot of people in this thread were not happy about how I put that  But I stand by that statement! I think he is indecisive and obsessed with doing "what's right" and "his duty" but he can never decide what exactly "what's right" truly is, and hence he's constantly switching from one side to the other, terrified of having made the wrong decision and inadvertently failing to serve the greater good.

She doesn't see him as wishy-washy though, she's saying that essentially he had a game plan and only switched to Hawke's side because it was a self-survival thing with selfish intent. Which I found interesting.

[CuriousArtemis]

No but she says, "I don't see Cullen's ... wishy-washy attitude as being inconsistent with his character..."

So she is saying, yes, he is wishy-washy, but that is part of who he is; it is a key component of his character. It illustrates his survivor instincts, etc.

And while I agree that he is wishy-washy (that word has negative connotations, yet for Cullen I don't see it as a negative thing), like Newshmoo I don't think it is because he thinks about his own survival but that he's constantly worried about doing what's right.

[LolaLei]

motomotogirl wrote...

No but she says, "I don't see Cullen's ... wishy-washy attitude as being inconsistent with his character..."

So she is saying, yes, he is wishy-washy, but that is part of who he is; it is a key component of his character. It illustrates his survivor instincts, etc.

And while I agree that he is wishy-washy (that word has negative connotations, yet for Cullen I don't see it as a negative thing), like Newshmoo I don't think it is because he thinks about his own survival but that he's constantly worried about doing what's right.

That's because I said that I felt his wishy-washy character was in-part due to the game being rushed out the door. But she feels that he isn't, but if he was wishy-washy then it was done purposely.

*Edit* Sorry, I would've put the whole convo up, but it's gone on for pages now.

Modifié par LolaLei, 15 mai 2013 - 10:33 .

[Twice a Lady]

Newschmoo wrote...

I don't see Cullen as a 'self survivor' more a person who wants to do the right thing according to his faith and his beliefs. Doesn't always mean that those beliefs are right though.

I believe he would be the kind of person who would put his life on the line for the greater good  (or the Chantry's version of it), if it was say 'Andraste's will' or something like that!

In DA2 he spoke up for those three mages at the end of DA2 (if doing pro-Templar - had to watch Youtube video as only done pro-mage route) when Hawke asked for his opinion. That scene to me was not a man who was taking steps to protect himself. It was a man expressing himself based on his fundamental beliefs and past experience.

I tend to play as a Pro-Templar Mage, just for that extra bit of dialogue with Cullen. I wish that scene was somehow able to be done in Pro-Mage as well. It would certainly give all the players a better insight to who he is. A lot of arguments against Cullen completely ignore his speech in Act 3, and I often suspect it is because a lot of people don't know it exists having never played Pro-Templar. It's a shame because it is a very good bit of dialogue with him.

[meanieweenie]

LolaLei wrote...

motomotogirl wrote...

No but she says, "I don't see Cullen's ... wishy-washy attitude as being inconsistent with his character..."

So she is saying, yes, he is wishy-washy, but that is part of who he is; it is a key component of his character. It illustrates his survivor instincts, etc.

And while I agree that he is wishy-washy (that word has negative connotations, yet for Cullen I don't see it as a negative thing), like Newshmoo I don't think it is because he thinks about his own survival but that he's constantly worried about doing what's right.

That's because I said that I felt his wishy-washy character was in-part due to the game being rushed out the door. But she feels that he isn't, but if he was wishy-washy then it was done purposely.

*Edit* Sorry, I would've put the whole convo up, but it's gone on for pages now.

I have to agree that if they'd had more time to spend on Cullen, he may have come across as more decisive in his opinion on a few things. Unless the whole point was to leave him vague in order to tee him up for DA3.

[LolaLei]

It's like in Act 3 when he's all "Urgh, get this mage out of my sight. NEVER TRUST A MAGE THE ORDER IS ALL!" and then the rest of the time in the Gallows he's all reasonable and beginning to question Meredith and the way the Kirkwall Order is run. His attitude in that quest where your sibling/lover gets kidnapped just doesn't fit with the growth he'd shown elsewhere in the game.

[Newschmoo]

Twice a Lady wrote...


I tend to play as a Pro-Templar Mage, just for that extra bit of dialogue with Cullen. I wish that scene was somehow able to be done in Pro-Mage as well. It would certainly give all the players a better insight to who he is. A lot of arguments against Cullen completely ignore his speech in Act 3, and I often suspect it is because a lot of people don't know it exists having never played Pro-Templar. It's a shame because it is a very good bit of dialogue with him.

I have got three Hawkes on my Xbox and I am trying to go pro-Templar on one of my unfinished ones for the experience and to try the game from different angles.  I find it quite hard to be pro-Templar and not stick up for the mages. 

Thank goodness for Youtube!

Modifié par Newschmoo, 15 mai 2013 - 10:55 .

[LolaLei]

Presumably even if you play pro-mage he still tried to stick up for those mages, it's just we weren't there to see it and he probably wasn't successful.

[Newschmoo]

I hope that is the case.

Re the scene with the three mages, does that scene only come up if Anders is killed?

[LolaLei]

Newschmoo wrote...

I hope that is the case.

Re the scene with the three mages, does that scene only come up if Anders is killed?

Naw, it happens regardless but only if you take Meredith's side. What's weird is that you'd think Cullen would've had some sort of response to Anders blowing the Chantry up. He doesn't even make a comment about it on pro-templar whilst you run around in the Gallows pre-fight.

[CrazyRah]

I has arrived as was foretold by LolaLei!

So the less than pleasant thread out there caught my attention but i quickly realised it was not a good kind of thread but it did however make me start thinking about Cullen. I've never really thought that much about him and my PoV is fairly limited so this is why i'm coming here to ask what is it that make him so interesting, what make each one of you like him and such?

I rather ask this question than go generalizing everyone into having the exact same opinion. I also prefer to see opinions and view points that i've not thought about and perhaps never would think if i didn't ask because i really do want to learn what make each character so popular. 

Modifié par CrazyRah, 15 mai 2013 - 11:07 .

[Twice a Lady]

Newschmoo wrote...

Twice a Lady wrote...


I tend to play as a Pro-Templar Mage, just for that extra bit of dialogue with Cullen. I wish that scene was somehow able to be done in Pro-Mage as well. It would certainly give all the players a better insight to who he is. A lot of arguments against Cullen completely ignore his speech in Act 3, and I often suspect it is because a lot of people don't know it exists having never played Pro-Templar. It's a shame because it is a very good bit of dialogue with him.

I have got three Hawkes on my Xbox and I am trying to go pro-Templar on one of my unfinished ones for the experience and to try the game from different angles.  I find it quite hard to be pro-Templar and not stick up for the mages. 

Thank goodness for Youtube!

 The first time I went Pro-Templar I felt sick. It was a Seb romance complete with killing Anders (something I have never done since, I adore Anders), but that is beside the point. Playing Pro-Templar actually makes for a very interesting game, especially if you've played Pro-Mage first. Meredith doesn't seem crazy at all until the very end, just very hardlined. It is also revealed that Orsino knew all about the serial killer and withheld information about him on purpose, regardless of knowing what kind of magic he was doing. Since learning that I have had a hard time liking Orsino. He may not have turned blood mage until the end, but he still allowed a murderer to slice and dice a lot of innocent women in the meantime. Any who, if you never do manage to play through Pro-Templar I completely understand. I still can't play through Origins as an antagonist

[R2s Muse]

motomotogirl wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

Here's an interesting opinion on Cullen's behaviour/personality in DA2. I'm not gonna quote the thing directly, so I'll just give you the basic jist:

"I don't see Cullen's behaviour or wishy-washy attitude as being inconsistent with his character (or bad writing) at all. It simply highlighted exactly the kind of person he is, and that is someone who is good at surving at the cost of others. He knew how good of a fighter Hawke was and switched sides at the right moment. People like him make self-survival seem like they are doing a morally superior thing and not all because they want to live another day."

Discuss!

Yes, well, I believe I was one of the few who said that Cullen is incredibly wishy-washy by nature!! And a lot of people in this thread were not happy about how I put that  But I stand by that statement! I think he is indecisive and obsessed with doing "what's right" and "his duty" but he can never decide what exactly "what's right" truly is, and hence he's constantly switching from one side to the other, terrified of having made the wrong decision and inadvertently failing to serve the greater good.

I also see this in character... although I don't know that I'd call it switching back and forth between good and bad necessarily. I think we can only see that line  drawn in the sand because of our essentiallhy god's eye view of the game. I think, like others have said, he's trying his best to do what is "right." For a pro-mage player, "right" is protect mages, often no matter what. For someone like Cullen, who's trying to do the best by everyone, his version of "right" is more in the middle. So, I agree that he's probably conflicted and trying to figure his own head out throughout Act 2 and 3, only finally figuring out what to do toward the very end... when the odds become more dire and inaction has greater consequences. 

So, where one might see "wishy washy" or "flip flopping",  I see him really stewing about what he should do and how he can serve multiple masters. Sometimes he gets it 'right,' sometimes, not so much.

[R2s Muse]

Ah, also, welcome Twice a Lady and CrazyRah! Welcome to the red-headed stepchild corner of the forums. Stay a while!

[R2s Muse]

Twice a Lady wrote...

Newschmoo wrote...

Twice a Lady wrote...


I tend to play as a Pro-Templar Mage, just for that extra bit of dialogue with Cullen. I wish that scene was somehow able to be done in Pro-Mage as well. It would certainly give all the players a better insight to who he is. A lot of arguments against Cullen completely ignore his speech in Act 3, and I often suspect it is because a lot of people don't know it exists having never played Pro-Templar. It's a shame because it is a very good bit of dialogue with him.

I have got three Hawkes on my Xbox and I am trying to go pro-Templar on one of my unfinished ones for the experience and to try the game from different angles.  I find it quite hard to be pro-Templar and not stick up for the mages. 

Thank goodness for Youtube!

 The first time I went Pro-Templar I felt sick. It was a Seb romance complete with killing Anders (something I have never done since, I adore Anders), but that is beside the point. Playing Pro-Templar actually makes for a very interesting game, especially if you've played Pro-Mage first. Meredith doesn't seem crazy at all until the very end, just very hardlined. It is also revealed that Orsino knew all about the serial killer and withheld information about him on purpose, regardless of knowing what kind of magic he was doing. Since learning that I have had a hard time liking Orsino. He may not have turned blood mage until the end, but he still allowed a murderer to slice and dice a lot of innocent women in the meantime. Any who, if you never do manage to play through Pro-Templar I completely understand. I still can't play through Origins as an antagonist

My pro-templar PT was also interesting... but challenging. I ended up meta-gaming the crap out of it and found that I could navigate most of my options with my integrity still intact. I couldn't let Keran get kicked out, but most of the other pro-templar choices I could rationalize. I also was "romancing" Seb, which worked.

[LolaLei]

R2s Muse wrote...

motomotogirl wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

Here's an interesting opinion on Cullen's behaviour/personality in DA2. I'm not gonna quote the thing directly, so I'll just give you the basic jist:

"I don't see Cullen's behaviour or wishy-washy attitude as being inconsistent with his character (or bad writing) at all. It simply highlighted exactly the kind of person he is, and that is someone who is good at surving at the cost of others. He knew how good of a fighter Hawke was and switched sides at the right moment. People like him make self-survival seem like they are doing a morally superior thing and not all because they want to live another day."

Discuss!

Yes, well, I believe I was one of the few who said that Cullen is incredibly wishy-washy by nature!! And a lot of people in this thread were not happy about how I put that  But I stand by that statement! I think he is indecisive and obsessed with doing "what's right" and "his duty" but he can never decide what exactly "what's right" truly is, and hence he's constantly switching from one side to the other, terrified of having made the wrong decision and inadvertently failing to serve the greater good.

I also see this in character... although I don't know that I'd call it switching back and forth between good and bad necessarily. I think we can only see that line  drawn in the sand because of our essentiallhy god's eye view of the game. I think, like others have said, he's trying his best to do what is "right." For a pro-mage player, "right" is protect mages, often no matter what. For someone like Cullen, who's trying to do the best by everyone, his version of "right" is more in the middle. So, I agree that he's probably conflicted and trying to figure his own head out throughout Act 2 and 3, only finally figuring out what to do toward the very end... when the odds become more dire and inaction has greater consequences. 

So, where one might see "wishy washy" or "flip flopping",  I see him really stewing about what he should do and how he can serve multiple masters. Sometimes he gets it 'right,' sometimes, not so much.

I guess it's to be expected given the fact that he's views and opinions have been pulled out from under him twice now. It must be hard coming to the realisation that you've essentially been screwed over by the very Order you've spent the best part of your life serving, especially given that he felt guilty enough for doubting when he was younger and ended up being set upon by the people he was trained to protect.